Are children born without sin

[Rob G]

What is it that is passed on to every generation?

It is understood that sin is something committed against God.

A new born has committed not a thing against God

Even before conception there is a mysterious flaw that is implied scripturally to every human.

This flaw makes us unacceptable to God.

As it is written,Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[reba]

Either way we are dependent on His Grace and Mercy

I can read scripture that says to me babies are born into sin I say wow how thankful i am for HIS grace and mercy

I can read scripture that implies babies are innocent i say wow how thankful i am for HIS grace and mercy


either way it is HIM

 

[Vaccine]

either way it is HIM

Amen! I often think of this verse while trying to figure out something.

shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25

 

[Chopper]

Are children born without sin

In the last post, Mike used the word "impute". That's a key word for this thread. Romans 5:12-21 explains some interesting points on sin. Most people don't associate that word when thinking about children. Notice what the text says. "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law." ( ESV) The text says that there was a period when there was no law. That period was 1,500 years. Only death was in effect because of the sin of Adam. The KJV uses the word "impute" which means to record the ESV uses the word "counted" which means to charge to one's account. So this tells us that even though sin was being committed during that 1,500 year period, because the law of Moses was not in effect, sin was not recorded. Now, we have a child. There is a period of years that the child is not judged by the Law because he/she does not understand it. Therefore anything that the child does which is wrong (sin) it is not recorded to his/her account because they don't understand. At the age of accountability (different for each child) the parent must explain wrong and right and the child then has an open account book. If the child or mentally challenged child or adult dies before being accountable, they go to Heaven....Hope this helps

 

[Brother Mike]

The KJV uses the word "impute" which means to record the ESV uses the word "counted" which means to charge to one's account.

Very good Chopper. It's not that children don't have flesh, don't pick up the same conversations and issues parents have, it's that there is no sin or law imputed unto them. If there is no law, then no sin. That answers the question that children are not born of a sin nature because to have that, there must be a standard to which we could compare, but no standard is set for children.

As for the age of accountability?

I read the word as if God never changes. If he said it, then that settles it and with no contradictions. God never changes, and why we have such great hope because God is the same and consistent.

Num_14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

There is your age, from 20 years and up. Those kids mimicked the parents saying we are going to die out here just like mom and dad. The promise land was a sign of a home in Heaven (Heb 11) A home they only saw far off. 19 and younger, there was no sin imputed on those children though they murmured right along with mom and dad.

Something else interesting. Children share the same faith, same covenant that the parents share with God, else the children be unclean.

The parents full of doubt and unbelief, the children in danger. One reason I never say my daughter can be hit and killed by a car if she does not look both ways before crossing the street. Even if she forgets to look, God will see her across safely. I choose life and blessing for my child, not death or confess things that have not yet happened.

Still, we are talking about the promised land here. A sign of Heaven to come. God considered a child to be 19 and younger, this is what God said.

Deu_1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Your children had no knowledge of sin. Where there is no law, sin is not imputed. No law, no knowledge, no sin. 19 and younger are not allowed to make eternal decisions, for God shall see that they go thither and God will give them that place in Heaven.

Not my words, God said that and you can count on it.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Your children had no knowledge of sin. Where there is no law, sin is not imputed. No law, no knowledge, no sin. 19 and younger are not allowed to make eternal decisions, for God shall see that they go thither and God will give them that place in Heaven.

Wow Mike, Good info. To be honest, I've never studied the age of accountability, I guess I figured it's to ambiguous. OK, I'm going to put age 19 in my computer mind. Now, what would you say to the Jewish age of from 12 to 13. I wonder if Jewish thought would dictate the age of accountability? Hmmmm Is there an answer?

 

[Brother Mike]

Wow Mike, Good info. To be honest, I've never studied the age of accountability, I guess I figured it's to ambiguous. OK, I'm going to put age 19 in my computer mind. Now, what would you say to the Jewish age of from 12 to 13. I wonder if Jewish thought would dictate the age of accountability? Hmmmm Is there an answer?

I would have to talk to some jews and see if they think their 13 year old is saved if certain things are not chopped off. Once it's chopped off, then they are accountable. I have to go with what God said, and if you think about it, I have yet to meet a 19 year old teen that I feel would be able to make eternal choices.

Think about all the stupid stuff teens do today, sex starting at 13, drugs, rebellion against parents and they die to find out they are standing before the Lord who has a big smile on his face saying welcome.

One that that did not get in them is years of hardness of the heart, the life experience of a 19 year old would not allow the heart to become so could and hard it could not be melted, some because of their hardness God has let them go to their own devices but a 19 year old young man or women can be reached.

It's almost like God knows what He is doing.........................

As for Jewish folk? I would have to talk to them and see what their concept is of someone that does not get their chopping down at that age. I pretty sure they are looking at things in a Reliegious aspect and we are talking about the spiritual laws of our great Father in Heaven and his mercy on a human spirit who just has not had enough years and expererience to make an eternal accountable choice. It may be apples and oranges here, but I could be wrong not knowing the Jewish culture that well.

your blessed.

I can read scripture that says to me babies are born into sin I say wow how thankful i am for HIS grace and mercy

You would need a scripture that actually says that, I gave some that clearly so no because even if there is things we call sin, there is no law imputed or standard against any child 19 or younger.

The scripture I am thinking of............ "I was born in sin" the whole context is the mother who had the child in sin. New born babies don't sin, have no sin.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The issue was letting sin have the dominion, not practicing sin. Babies don't practice sin, they are just annoying is all. Waking mom and dad up in the middle of the night is not sin worthy of hell fire.

Rom_7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Without sin, the law is ineffective, if there is no law (Like for a baby) then no sin is imputed or counted toward that baby. The sin needs the law imputed upon for their to be sin. No, sinning, no law.

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Here Paul mention those who had not sinned (Worthy of death under the curse of the Law of sin and death) are still effected by the law of death. So it is possible there are some even that had not sinned in the likeness of Adam but still got the law of sin and death. Babies have no concept of any such law and some might have lived not sinning after the likeness of Adam which must be possible.

We don't have a sin nature, we have a need a Saviour nature for no flesh is justified before God. We are all born needing a Saviour and God has a age where He says the Law must be counted for those 20 and older did not enter in the promise land who sinned after their parents.


Mike.

 

[reba]

semantics..... There is also no scripture that says 'this is the age of accountability'. We can 'go find' just about any verse and use it to our liking, we all do that is seems. Any way one looks at the question of the OP it comes to His Grace and Mercy.

 

[Brother Mike]

semantics..... There is also no scripture that says 'this is the age of accountability'. We can 'go find' just about any verse and use it to our liking, we all do that is seems. Any way one looks at the question of the OP it comes to His Grace and Mercy.

If God said those 19 and younger will make it to the promised land, a sign to come of heaven, then God has never changed one bit. It's not just semantics, it's what God said. Now if you think the Lord is fickle and changes his mind all the time about things, then not much I can do to help there. God gave an age, and clear instruction. Good enough for me.

The Age is 19 and younger.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Exo_30:14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

Num_14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

So, God gave us the age of accountability. God required absolutely nothing of those 19 and younger.

Mike.



Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

If God said those 19 and younger will make it to the promised land, a sign to come of heaven, then God has never changed one bit.

I would agree and assert that in that specific situation what God said (His word) is to be counted true. Did they cross over? I think yes. But that was specific to a river that has certainly meandered somewhat since then, right? Analogies are useful because they line up in so many ways but they are analogies still because they do not line up in every single way.

In counterpoint, we are aware of the bar-mitzvah which is based on understanding of teachings on such matters. There are other religions that also address "the age of accountability" (which is a thought that I have not directly heard referenced in the bible) and come to even different conclusion. If you know to do right and don't? It's sin. I've heard others preach that this includes voting for a certain candidate, if you don't vote the way they want you're sinning, but that's not the point. God knows hearts. I don't know of any specific statement regarding the number of seconds that a person lives or a line that is drawn universally for every person on the whole earth. Of course we can reason together and the scripture you mention may be taken into consideration but it is not the only (or final) word on the subject.

 

[reba]

Lets see how the rest of the OT is applied.

 

[Brother Mike]

Of course we can reason together and the scripture you mention may be taken into consideration but it is not the only (or final) word on the subject.

It sort of reminds me of watching "MASTERCHEF" you have Jo, Graham and Chef Gorden. All 3 are masters of cooking, but at times they simply do not agree with each other. That does not make anyone a bad cook though, each are Masters at their profession.

For me........... I take the Word literal. God requires those 20 and up to follow the law and bring in tithe, God says those 20 and up die in the wilderness for siding with the parents on how God brought them out to do. Those 19 and younger also agreeing with the parents get taken to the promised land.

For me, God gives a number and that is good enough for me. God said it, fine. I don't try to look further because if God changed it for someone that was 16 and sent them to hell then because of their bad heart, then He sent them to hell with just 16 years of experience to know good from evil. I personally have not run into many young people 20 and under that even understand consequences of things they do. They just don't think that way.

To say someone got super smart at 18 and had it all figured out but choose wrong to end up in Hell, then None of the Children in Israels camp seeing the Miracles were near as smart as this present day 18 year old, they must have all been dumb as rocks back then so God makes exceptions for the brighter ones today.

I am not buying it, God does not change.

yet, another master chef just might say different.

Lets see how the rest of the OT is applied.

I gave a few scriptures about 19 and younger............. You mentioned grace and Mercy........... Would not imputing sin (Not that sin was not there) to a 19 or younger person not be great grace and mercy? Could we then not confidently tell someone their darling 17 year old is not roasting in hell? Loosing a child is horrible enough, but to think that child is roasting away is even more unbearable. I think this would cover the grace and mercy you mentioned as God did give the age by which they were responsible for keeping the law of tithing and that age was 20 and up. Sin is not imputed without the Law and there was no law for 19 and younger.

Mike.

 

[reba]

For me........... I take the Word literal. God requires those 20 and up to follow the law and bring in tithe, God says those 20 and up die in the wilderness for siding with the parents on how God brought them out to do. Those 19 and younger also agreeing with the parents get taken to the promised land.

Do you really? take the Word literal? or do you take this part and that part literal?

 

[Chopper]

Sin is not imputed without the Law and there was no law for 19 and younger.

For the little time that I've used thinking about the age of accountability since Mike set an age, I really like the age of 19 & younger. It really makes sense since there is, to my knowledge, not another age specifically mentioned in Scripture. Soooooo I'm going to stick with 19 until someone can show me a different age in the Scriptures....Thanks Mike

 

[stovebolts]

Loosing a child is horrible enough, but to think that child is roasting away is even more unbearable.

There is always infant baptism :D JK, I'm in the same camp that you are and my studies in the matter led me to where you are with the age of accountability, although I do not use 19 as a static age, but rather reference.

I struggled with the idea that an infant would / could roast away in hell for a time myself. Not as an exercise in theology, but because I myself lost a child. Loosing a child is hard enough, and then to have the thought put into your head that the same child you held in your arms and rocked late into the early morning.. that same child you looked at with the deepest of unconditional love could possibly be roasting in an unbearable hell... I can hardly write it let alone let that thought into my head.

Paul writes in Romans that we store wrath up for ourselves on the day of judgment and I have to wonder what sins an infant could have possibly committed to deserve an eternity in hell for dying prematurely. In short, a parent should never have to bury their child, and a parent should never struggle with the idea that their infant is in hell.

 

[Brother Mike]

Do you really? take the Word literal? or do you take this part and that part literal?

I take the Word literal.

Exo_30:14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

Twenty and above comes under the law and specific commandment to tithe.

Exo 38:26 A bekah for every man, that is, half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that went to be numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty men.

Everyone 20 and older considered a man. Parents make decisions for children

Num_1:24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

20 years and up able to go to war.

Num_14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

19 and younger, sin not imputed against them, taken to the promised land.

Num_32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:

Children 19 and younger were not counted guilty for not following the Lord.

1Ch_23:24 These were the sons of Levi after the house of their fathers; even the chief of the fathers, as they were counted by number of names by their polls, that did the work for the service of the house of the LORD, from the age of twenty years and upward.

Twenty years and older able to serve in the house of the Lord.

So, to think if someone 19 or younger could not decide to go to war, did not get counted out of the promise land, that could not serve in the house of the Lord, was not counted as a man. To think God somehow changes his mind and 19 or younger can make eternal decisions is just not logical. How many scriptures do we need.... seriously?

If all those scriptures are not good enough, then I guess I only take parts of the Word I like. Otherwise I just answered the age old question among Christians about this talk of accountability with very defined answers of What God considers the age of accountability and the rest is just religious junk.

Soooooo I'm going to stick with 19 until someone can show me a different age in the Scriptures....Thanks Mike

I have studied this as answering this question for parents who lost teens is a serious matter. We just don't throw them ideas or religion, we present the word. Just saying it's all based on the heart and bla, bla, bla is not good enough. We strive for excellence, not guess work. Stay with the Word Chopper and your all good.

Blessings..

Mike.

 

[Vaccine]

I wonder about setting an exact age. What about older people who are MRDD, Autistic, or have other mental handicaps? I can't imagine they are condemned.

I believe everyone is born with a sin nature:

"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Ephesians 2:3


However, I believe that even though kids and the mentally handicapped sin, they have no guilt. I don't believe they go to hell. I think the parable of healing the blind man in John 9 explains:

"And passing by, he saw a man blind from birth, and his disciples asked him, saying, `Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?'

Jesus answered, `It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him" John 9:1-3

Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains. John 9:35-41


The last verse explains "blind" is a metaphor for "ignorant of sin". If the pharisees were [ignorant of sin],they would have no guilt, but just by asking if they were [ignorant of sin], they demonstrated they knew what sin was, therefore their guilt remained. I think kids, teenagers and the mentally handicapped are blind to sin, DO sin, yet "have no guilt" in Jesus eyes.

 

[ardchoille]

I would say yes, that until they understand, really understand right from wrong, they are not held accountable by God.

I agree. And this is also why I feel that baptising an infant doesn't really accomplish its intended purpose.

 

[Rob G]

I wonder about setting an exact age. What about older people who are MRDD, Autistic, or have other mental handicaps? I can't imagine they are condemned.

I believe everyone is born with a sin nature:

"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Ephesians 2:3


However, I believe that even though kids and the mentally handicapped sin, they have no guilt. I don't believe they go to hell. I think the parable of healing the blind man in John 9 explains:

"And passing by, he saw a man blind from birth, and his disciples asked him, saying, `Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?'

Jesus answered, `It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him" John 9:1-3

Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains. John 9:35-41


The last verse explains "blind" is a metaphor for "ignorant of sin". If the pharisees were [ignorant of sin],they would have no guilt, but just by asking if they were [ignorant of sin], they demonstrated they knew what sin was, therefore their guilt remained. I think kids, teenagers and the mentally handicapped are blind to sin, DO sin, yet "have no guilt" in Jesus eyes.

I believe God is merciful. I’m sure within the mysteries of the Word there is a open door for the innocent.

If God through Christ will Judge men who do not know the Law according to their conscience,

how much guilt can the conscience of a child have but a pure and clear conscience. Romans 2:14-16

 

[Chopper]

I wonder about setting an exact age. What about older people who are MRDD, Autistic, or have other mental handicaps? I can't imagine they are condemned.

Hi Vaccine, The same Scripture that covers children applies to those you mentioned and anyone who con't distinguish between right and wrong. see again Romans 5:12-21 "sin is not counted where there is no law."(ESV) Those adults that you mentioned do not understand the law and its not held against them....thus says the Scriptures, thus says the Lord!