Are children born without sin

[Sparkey]

It sort of reminds me of watching "MASTERCHEF" you have Jo, Graham and Chef Gorden. All 3 are masters of cooking, but at times they simply do not agree with each other.

Hi, Brother Mike

I appreciate your comments here and would ask you to pardon my argumentative style because it's not meant to tear down what you have said. Your observation about what happened during the exodus is applicable, but I think that the judgment of God involves more than counting the number of times the earth has rotated around the sun from the time a person is born.

Let's expand our thought here a bit, because part of your premise includes the observation that God does not change. That's true enough. There is no shadow of turning in Him. Still, we know that in essence, He is not a legalist --not bound by Law that is made to help us. If I tried to argue otherwise I am certain that there are so many examples that you could bring that are so convincing I'd have to capitulate to your better understanding of the matter. And that being the case, I notice that the intent of the point you make about our unchanging Father (who never stops loving His children) is projected from the time of the Exodus into our lives here in the future.

But what about this going in the other direction? Backwards before the time of the flood. Do you have a way of knowing if the 19/20 rule applied before the flood? Frankly, I don't. I do know that men lived longer then. Considerably longer. Do you think they may have matured in their understanding of Good and Evil quicker or slower perhaps?

 

[Brother Mike]

I am not giving some age of accountability where a child becomes aware enough to make that eternal decision to roast in Hell. Nobody would know that age as only God would know the heart. What I am doing is taking something God said, God instructed and using many scriptures to show that God gave us an age and that age is 19 and younger. After 19, then you get into those other areas of the heart but we are speaking about children here.

But what about this going in the other direction? Backwards before the time of the flood. Do you have a way of knowing if the 19/20 rule applied before the flood? Frankly, I don't.

Ezr_3:8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD.

Sparrowhawke

I think the thing that bothers me the most, is that I posted how many scriptures that God has given us about His set age for priesthood, going to war, going to the promise land, so on........ That age clearly defined at 19 and younger. Not only that, but the same Spirit hundreds of years later say the same exact thing through a different Prophet that the age is 19 or younger. Then to have believers being given that information and have any doubt as to what God said.

The thing is, I had this type of issue one other time. In a Christian book by a guy who had all kinds of PHD's and college and bla, bla bla, I with a group of men read in this mans book that some of the bible was wrong. The example he gave was that God said coney's (Rabbits) chew cud. The guy went on to say that it's a know fact that Rabbits do not chew cud.

Now, I asked some of my Brothers in the Lord about this, showed them this guys credentials and asked them if God was wrong, or science was wrong. To my surprise after they examined the material I had like 3 undecided and 1 saying that Science was right and the Word must have been mistranslated.

This was in the 1990's so looking stuff up on the INTERNET was not possible. Now if God said rabbits chew cud, then scientist have not yet caught them at it. I went and checked out several books on rabbits and none mentioned anything about Chewing cud. I kept at it, if God said they chew Cud, then bless God they is some Cud chewing rabbits. I got a more modern book on Rabbits and right there in the first chapter it said....."A very little known fact about rabbits. Rabbits chew cud so if you see your rabbit throwing up, don't get concerned about it."

BAM!!!

SO>...............

If a 16 year old was roasting in Hell and I were to defend them, I would go to God and tell Him that He had it written in His word that 19 and younger make it to the promise land even though they sinned after their parents sin. I would say to the Lord that He would not even let 19 or younger serve in his house because He felt they would not be ready enough, How is it God that you send a 16 year old to Hell then? It would tell the Lord that He did not count 19 or younger fit for the armies, How then God can you send a 16 year old to Hell?

Isa_43:26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

Now I have God busted out on many things he said concerning Children and what He found the accountable for and what they were responsible for and the age that He gave. How can a child under 19 whom God did not feel could serve in the army, make that eternal decision to go to hell forever. It's just not possible.

So while we look at this angle, and say it's the heart, and say Kids are just smarter today, they were dumb as rocks in the past. The bottom line is that it was God that set the age of accountability for natural things. God set the age, it's not guess work and that age is 19 and younger.

19 and younger, God would not allow to be counted, pay tithe or be responsible for committing the same sin as the parents, it was 19.

Luk_16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

How can a child 19 or younger who God brought into the promise land, who said could not be counted in the army, who could not bring their tithe and yet make any eternal decisions? I am not buying it, the Age is clear and that age is 19 or younger.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

I am not buying it, the Age is clear and that age is 19 or younger.

I wasn't trying to convince you otherwise but rather interjecting my own thoughts, specifically that I think that the judgment of God (not only regarding sin but also regarding imputed righteousness and entry to heaven) goes beyond mere counting of the number of times the earth has rotated around the sun since a child is born.

Part of that is based on a study that I've done entitled "The sins of the father," but really? It's off topic here as is your amusing story about rabbits. The question originally posed and mentioned in the titles is about children at the time of their birth.

I would consider discussing this further with you in another thread entitled, "The Age of Accountability," if you would like.

 

[Brother Mike]

The sins of the father

There is a interesting topic........... A deliverance ministry view of the Word.

I would consider discussing this further with you in another thread entitled, "The Age of Accountability," if you would like.

It's OK, the topic has been talked about for years, but if God said 19 then who would question? It's not like there is just one obscure scripture here.

I think it's pretty clear considering the OP that Children are not born with sin imputed on them. No flesh gets justified, but if the sin is not imputed then it makes any judgment null.

Mike.

 

[Danus]

Are children born without sin

@Rod G - not answering anyone else on this. Whatever you believe in regards to the OP is fine with me; don't care so save yourselfe the time of responding to me.

This is a good question; one that will get you a verity of interesting answers, as evidenced.

One thing the bible makes clear is that mankind, and the world is fallen; Is sinful, some might say evil, or wicked (same intention of meaning). Where the bible is largely silent on details, or ambiguous in meaning, is where we find a wide verity of explanations, some of which can be quite a stretch from what the bible does clearly say about "sin".

What the church seems to indicate, (church being the Christian church, no specific denomination) is that sin is a choice, or sin is something willful in nature. That is to say a person either sins or they don't sin at any given time. This is the most common understanding with a verity of specifics offered to explain it. It's also the most common stretch from what the bible does say about the nature of sin, but it's also the most fair overall idea of sin given that the bible does also seem to indicate the same thing. seems to that is. After all, Jesus would often say; "Go and sin no more"; an indication that sin, or righteousness, is a conscious effort on the part of the individual, which further indicates a level of maturity, or life experience, or knowledge to indicate that perhaps there is some sort of age of accountability where one can be judged more or less depending on their culpability to the degree of willfulness one might sin against God.

However, regardless of how relatively logical that thought is in relation to what the bible might indicate, that sin or righteousness is a conscious effort, it does not definitively answer your question, nor does it specifically relate to the over arching message of the bible that the world, and man kind are fallen, sinful, evil or wicked in nature.

So my answer to your question is NO. We are born sinners. Not only that; but we die sinners and some are saved sinners.

There are two types of sinners. 1, thouse who don't care they are sinners and sin; and 2, those that do care & don't want to be sinners, and yet sin. But the bible says we are all sinners. All children of wrath, evil, wicked. Some of the gretest men of God refer to themselves as sinners. Paul says he is the greatest sinner. They understand their condition and that understanding is a prerequisite to understanding grace.

But what about children? The short of salvation is that we are saved by grace, not by some idea of choice, good behavior, or abstaining from certain thoughts, actions or deeds. God saves sinners and he saves those who can not save themselves and they are saved by His grace. But don't take my word for it. Test it for yourself. Weigh it against His word.

 

[reba]

Nicely done Danus

 

[Helm]

They're born with the potential of sin/human freewill built into them but don't have much of a capacity to exercise it just yet I'd say.