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Are Christians any different?

jgredline said:
Voy
The bible is literal and the bible says ''the Angel of the Lord''
When ever the Bible speaks of ''The Angel of the Lord'' its refering to Jesus incarnite..

When the Bible says an Angel, then its an Angel / messenger.
Peace.
Jg

You think that everything in the Bible is literal.

How can you definitely prove that what the Old Testament says is the Angel of the Lord is the Jesus we know from the New Testament?

Unless you are a Biblical scholar, you really do not have any authority on the matter, in my mind.
 
scutato said:
Voyageur said:
One can pick and choose Biblical verse to justify any interpretation.

I'm not arguing that God's not a loving God. I'm arguing that He's a loving God and a vengeful God. Just as anyone you know has more than one facet to their character, so does God. Not acknowledging that is not giving God enough credit as a living being, let alone the Creator of everything.

Indeed, indeed, scutato. Of this we can agree.

Now follow me a step further: why do we have these contradictions and dualities from a perfect being?

I'm not saying it isn't within God to be violent and kind at the same time, but why would a perfect being have need for violence? Violence seems to me to be a human imperfection.

And if it is written into the Bible, you have to admit the possibility exists that this is the result of religious leaders editing the Bible to conform to their own views. There have been self-serving clergy all throughout history, I do not put this beyond them.
 
scutato said:
I'm arguing that He's a loving God and a vengeful God.

God is the only one who can give revenge. No one else can. Jesus' followers ought to use NT for discipleship. You should not conveniently flip flop from OT to NT.

Romans 12:17-19 "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord."
 
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." (1 John 4:7-11)
 
Voyageur said:
Indeed, indeed, scutato. Of this we can agree.

Now follow me a step further: why do we have these contradictions and dualities from a perfect being?

I'm not saying it isn't within God to be violent and kind at the same time, but why would a perfect being have need for violence? Violence seems to me to be a human imperfection.

And if it is written into the Bible, you have to admit the possibility exists that this is the result of religious leaders editing the Bible to conform to their own views. There have been self-serving clergy all throughout history, I do not put this beyond them.

Sinful violence and anger are definitely two human imperfections, but what about righteous wrath, and righteous judgement? What about Jesus Himself driving the thieves from the temple of God?

Wrath and love are not incompatible. People have built a false God in their minds that is not the God of the Bible.

All the references of vengeance and wrath found in the Bible haven't been added by twisted clergymen. Why? Search for those words on BibleGateway.com as I said; they're found in hundreds of places throughout the Bible, always as part of a lesson or record of actions of God.

Plus, there's a very small time period where so much modification could have taken place. Read up on the Dead Sea Scrolls and Bible history; the accuracy of the texts we have today (including spelling/grammatical errors) is extremely high. The number of manuscripts we have for the books of the Bible are well above average for books of equal age.
 
lily of God said:
God is the only one who can give revenge. No one else can. Jesus' followers ought to use NT for discipleship. You should not conveniently flip flop from OT to NT.

Are you saying that the God of the New Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament? What God do you worship, lily?

lily of God said:
Romans 12:17-19 "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord."

War and murder are two completely different things. If you think Christians are sinful for participating in war, what about this? 1 Samuel 15:1-3:

Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
 
Voyageur said:
jgredline said:
Voy
The bible is literal and the bible says ''the Angel of the Lord''
When ever the Bible speaks of ''The Angel of the Lord'' its refering to Jesus incarnite..

When the Bible says an Angel, then its an Angel / messenger.
Peace.
Jg

You think that everything in the Bible is literal.

How can you definitely prove that what the Old Testament says is the Angel of the Lord is the Jesus we know from the New Testament?

Unless you are a Biblical scholar, you really do not have any authority on the matter, in my mind.

Voy
I started to write down my credentials on the matter,(and they would surprise you) but then thought why should I boast? So I will leave you with this challenge. Look up the passage that I quoted in the original Hebrew scriptures (if you understand Hebrew) and see if you can prove me wrong.
Peace
 
scutato said:
Are you saying that the God of the New Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament? What God do you worship, lily?
No, You don't seem to understand what God is doing. God is progressive and He changed His mission from OT to NT.

War and murder are two completely different things. If you think Christians are sinful for participating in war, what about this? 1 Samuel 15:1-3:

Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

You see? It is God making a decision to destroy them. God is the only one who can destroy people not anyone else.
 
Voyageur said:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." (1 John 4:7-11)

Goes to show that anyone can quote the scriptures.
But do you know what it means?
 
lily of God said:
No, You don't seem to understand what God is doing. God is progressive and He changed His mission from OT to NT.

Did he, really? Because I thought God's mission from the beginning was to show His love for Man, and redeem us from sin. Do you have Scriptural backing for this? I know, I probably shouldn't ask that...

lily of God said:
You see? It is God making a decision to destroy them. God is the only one who can destroy people not anyone else.

That wasn't quite the point I was making with that passage, but what about all the wars initiated by David? Were those unjust?
 
scutato said:
lily of God said:
No, You don't seem to understand what God is doing. God is progressive and He changed His mission from OT to NT.

Did he, really? Because I thought God's mission from the beginning was to show His love for Man, and redeem us from sin. Do you have Scriptural backing for this? I know, I probably shouldn't ask that...

[quote="lily of God":35726]You see? It is God making a decision to destroy them. God is the only one who can destroy people not anyone else.

That wasn't quite the point I was making with that passage, but what about all the wars initiated by David? Were those unjust?[/quote:35726]

Gingercat
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomarrow.
 
scutato said:
That wasn't quite the point I was making with that passage, but what about all the wars initiated by David? Were those unjust?

He always inquired of God. David never made his own decisions concerning wars.
 
lily of God said:
scutato said:
That wasn't quite the point I was making with that passage, but what about all the wars initiated by David? Were those unjust?

He always inquired of God. David never made his own decisions concerning wars.
Did David commit adultery after inquiring of God?
 
lily of God said:
Jesus tells us to "love your enemy", yet so many Christians join military and killing their evil enemies. Why can't so many Christians see the inconsistancy of their faith?

Are those Christians any different from any other non-Christians? I think not!

This is a good topic for discussion.

While it is an excellent thing to follow Jesus teaching to "love our enemies". It depends on the extent to which each christian would like to follow it.

When it comes to Christians joining the military. The main motive is to provide defensive services to one's own country. They provide protection to their countrymen from wicked people at the risk of their own lives. The verse below applies to those Christians who are in the military -

John 15:13 - Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

David who is appreciated as a man after God's own heart had to kill a lion and a bear to save a lamb as mentioned in the verses below -

1 Samuel 17:34-36 - And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock: And I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him. Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.

Christians in Defense forces of the Government do so as their duty for their fellow-country-men. One can be a good witness for the Lord even being in the Defense Forces.

So, God can understand Acts of Self-Defense and Acts of Protection for others and justifies such Christians.

While God would like peace and harmony to prevail among the different nations of the world so that there wouldn't be the need for the Military Department in each country, it is not practically possible due to the diverse beliefs of people in the world and more so due to the hatred existing in some of them. It is also due to the wicked, evil and violent people in the world who love to make war and violence rather than go for peaceful negotiations and see that the world is made a better place to live in.

We do not know how many years it may take for each country of the world to dissolve its Defense Forces.

Lord bless you.
 
When it comes to Christians joining the military. The main motive is to provide defensive services to one's own country. They provide protection to their countrymen from wicked people at the risk of their own lives.

Does this include the killing of innocent civilians through bombs? Or soldiers killing civilians by way of gun?

John 15:13 - Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

This is not limited to war. It could apply to any number of situations.

Christians in Defense forces of the Government do so as their duty for their fellow-country-men. One can be a good witness for the Lord even being in the Defense Forces.

But, taking part in war crimes or not trying to stop your fellow soldiers is equally wicked, and surely not condoned by God.

So, God can understand Acts of Self-Defense and Acts of Protection for others and justifies such Christians.

Self-defense is subjective, as we have seen with Iraq, for example. Some people think invading Iraq was a matter of self-defense. But, Iraq posed no imminent threat to the United States, nor did they invade the United States--which is how the United States legally justifies a declaration of war. The same was the case with Vietnam and Korea.

While God would like peace and harmony to prevail among the different nations of the world so that there wouldn't be the need for the Military Department in each country, it is not practically possible due to the diverse beliefs of people in the world and more so due to the hatred existing in some of them.

Indeed. Fundamentalists of every religion are the source of this hatred and violence against one another.

It is also due to the wicked, evil and violent people in the world who love to make war and violence rather than go for peaceful negotiations and see that the world is made a better place to live in.

Touche. But, wicked, evil and violent are relative terms. A virtuous man to some, can be a violent tyrant to others. This is the perception of Bush in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world. I am not indicting Bush, but this is how many people in the world see him. So, it proves that definitions of what constitutes evil, wicked and violent or virtuous, diplomatic, etc., are relative--a matter of perception.
 
Here is a problem I see in the Bible. Romans 9:14 Is God unjust? Not at all! So God is described as just. What does just mean? It means appropriate punishment for a crime. However, we don't see this in the Bible.

Here are a few examples. A king makes fun of God and God kills 185,000 people because of this. These 185,000 people didn't make fun of God but they were punished for the crime of another.

David commits adultery and God kills his son. The son committed no sin, but was killed for the sin of his father.

God killed Egyptian children in the plagues of Egypt. These people had no power to change Pharoah's mind and were just a way to punish the Pharoah.

There are many examples of this and I could go on and on.

The point is that most Christians will read all of this and probably agree with it. They know it is not justice to punish a person for a crime they did not commit. But they also believe that God is just. So what happens? The go into justification mode and try to make it all fit however they can. However, they usually abandon logic to do so and say things like David's son was a sinner and deserved death anyway without realizing they are saying that justice is arbitrary (which it is not).

Some Christians see the logical flaw and either have to give up the idea that God is just; they redefine just; or they assume that these stories in the Bible didn't happen as described.

Now if such an easy example can not be solved, how can Christians solve whether it is ok to war? After all, this problem is very similar to the one above. You have the Bible say to love your neighbor as yourself and also saying that it is ok to kill your neighbor.

These logical disconnects send Christians all over the place because they are not consistent.
 
lily of God said:
Jesus tells us to "love your enemy", yet so many Christians join military and killing their evil enemies. Why can't so many Christians see the inconsistancy of their faith?

Are those Christians any different from any other non-Christians? I think not!

Set an example for us. How is it that you are blessing your evil enemies?
 
Quath
I read your post in the morning when I was checking my e mail and you bring up points that have been brought up for 2000 years. Nothing new under the sun. As I work on my web site I started thinking and pondering about the Sermon on the mount and in particular Matt 7:1-6.. Anyway Why does the Bible so often speak about judgment? Page after page of the Old Testament seems to be filled with sobering descriptions of terrifying wrath and punishmentâ€â€ultimately brought about by God. Why the emphasis on judgment?
The short answer is because the judgments of God are real. The Bible is straightforward about the Lord’s wrath against evil and sin. God hates evil (Ps. 45:7) and condemns it whenever He sees it. Ultimately He will do away with it (Rev. 21:4–5).
But in reading the judgment passages of Scripture, it is important to notice that a warning of the Lord’s judgment always leaves room for repentance. For example, Joel’s spine-tingling description of the “day of the Lord†(Joel 2:1–11) is followed by a call to turn to the Lord “with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning†(Joel 2:12).
God wants no one to fall into condemnation and come under His judgment (2 Pet. 3:9). He warns people ahead of time so that they will recognize their sin and experience the “godly sorrow†that leads to repentance (2 Cor. 7:10). The God of judgment is also the God of mercy, “slow to anger, and of great kindness†(Joel 2:13).
If you’ve ever spent much time around a courtroom, you know that a constant tension is at play there between judgment and mercy. At issue is the determination of justice. What extenuating circumstances should be taken into account? What sort of punishment fits the crime? When should judges show mercy, and when should they “throw the book†at a criminal?
In thinking about these matters, it is commonly assumed that judgment and mercy are irreconcilable opposites. But even though we as humans may see them that way, that does not mean God does. From His standpoint, judgment and mercy need not be reconciled because they are not opposed in the first place.
Human beings tend to think of mercy as ignoring, excusing, indulging, or even approving of wrongdoing. God never does that. Indeed, He is “of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness†(Hab. 1:13). Thus when He withholds punishment, it is not because He is indulgent, but because He is patiently waiting for repentance, allowing people ample time to change their ways (Is. 30:18; 2 Pet. 3:9, 15).
However, if repentance from sin never comes, the Lord’s very mercyâ€â€or chesed, a word often translated “mercy†but with the fundamental sense of loyalty to the people with whom one has a covenant, and loyalty to the covenant itselfâ€â€moves Him to enforce justice (Deut. 5:9; 7:9–11).
Perhaps a modern way of describing this response is the term “tough love.†Genuine love means genuine commitment to the welfare of another. Thus love must sometimes act punitively in order to bring about, if possible, the best in and for the beloved. God loves us too much to let us drown in our own sin. His infinite love sometimes moves Him to judgment when we refuse to seek His best. So I asked the question in another thread. When we say ''we are saved'' What are we saved from? Are we saved from Hell? Are we saved from the devil? Are we saved from getting food poisoning? What are we saved from? What the Christian who has put his faith in Jesus Christ, God in carnite is saved from is GOD.. Yes we are saved from the wrath of God.

Romans 5:99 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

I would strongly suggest reading the whole chapter of Romans 5 to capture the complete context of what the Apostle Paul is saying..

Blessings
Jg
 
Voyageur said:
jgredline said:
Voy
The bible is literal and the bible says ''the Angel of the Lord''
When ever the Bible speaks of ''The Angel of the Lord'' its refering to Jesus incarnite..

When the Bible says an Angel, then its an Angel / messenger.
Peace.
Jg

You think that everything in the Bible is literal.

How can you definitely prove that what the Old Testament says is the Angel of the Lord is the Jesus we know from the New Testament?

Unless you are a Biblical scholar, you really do not have any authority on the matter, in my mind.

Voy
Ok. I worked on this for you today, but even if you don't believe it, its a good addition to my website..
Blessings friend.
Jg


The Angel of the Lord (Jehovah) is the Lord Jesus Christ in a preincarnate appearance. A study of the passages in which He is mentioned makes it clear that He is God, and that He is the Second Person of the Trinity.

First, the Scriptures show that He is God. Click here. When He appeared to Hagar, she recognized that she was in the presence of God; she referred to Him as “the-God-Who-Sees“ (Gen. 16:13). Speaking to Abraham on Mount Moriah, the Angel identified Himself as “the Lord †(?Heb.? YHWH , or Jehovah ; Gen. 22:16). Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:1113). When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16). At the burning bush, it was the “Angel of the Lord †who appeared (Ex. 3:2), but Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God†(Ex. 3:6). The Lord who went before Israel in a pillar of cloud (Ex. 13:21) was none other than 3the Angel of God†(Ex. 14:19). Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23). The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:18), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6). When Jacob struggled with the Angel, he struggled with God (Hos. 12:3, 4). These are convincing proofs that when the Angel of the Lord is referred to in the OT, the reference is to deity.

To read the rest click on the link
http://www.pro4machineworks.com/The_Ang ... _LORD.html
 
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