ARE GAY PEOPLE BORN THAT WAY ?

[Mike S]

Are adulterers born that way? Alchoholics? Pedophiles? Drug users?

Next time I get pulled over for speeding....

"sorry officer, I was born that way"

No, they're not making excuses at all...are they.. :eeeekkk

Was someone here pulled over for speeding and making excuses?

I said I don't think anyone HERE is making it an excuse. Has someone commenting in this thread justified homosexuality as not being a sin?

 

[GojuBrian]

You are confusing predisposition with action. I'll make a good faith assumption that this is unintentional.

Yes, people are "born that way" with a stronger than average propensity towards certain behaviors. It is not an excuse, it's the reality that people have to deal with and it is not in their control.

Actions, on the other hand, are within our control. Acting on a temptation, even if we have a strong disposition towards it, is wrong.

In your example, you may have a struggle with impatience. This isn't a fault. However, giving in to it by speeding most certainly is a fault. You are responsible for your actions, not your temptations.

Ok. I'll concede a little on your first point.

However, I strongly believe people use it as an excuse for it and many other things.

 

[Drew]

1. You argument is invalid and flawed,

2. I don't care what you believe the OP is about.

3. I don't value your opinion in the slightest.

1. How is it not circular reasoning to assert this:

do not believe in a 'gay gene'. Even though out tax dollars have worked frantically to find this gay gene, they just can't because it doesn't exist.

This is like someone in the 1300's presuming "they will never find a planet beyond Jupiter because no such planet exists".

2. Whether you care about the OP or not, the OP is what it is:

Is being gay a choice or are they born that way...

3. You stated this:

It's just another excuse to search for a way out of a guilty conscious,...

How, and please be precise, do you have access to the inner motivations of those who claim that people are born with a homosexual orientation?

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Ok. I'll concede a little on your first point.

However, I strongly believe people use it as an excuse for it and many other things.

Some do, some don't.

In the end, we need to balance our uncompromising declaration of the truth with our command from God to love our neighbors. It's always a difficult line to walk. You don't want to appear as if you condone a sinful behavior, but neither do you want to drive people away from God forever. Especially since we're just as sinful as anyone else.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

This is like someone in the 1300's presuming "they will never find a planet beyond Jupiter because no such planet exists".

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Drew]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I agree, of course.

As I have posted before, if it turns out that the evidence suggests that people are "born gay", such a discovery would be entirely consistent with the Biblical narrative. Near the very beginning of that narrative, man falls and the very fabric of creation is damaged. Thousands of years later, Paul reflects on this in Romans 8 when he speaks of creation looking forward to being liberated from "its bondage to decay".

Those who are so eager to "lay blame" should spend some more time reading and understanding their Bibles. If they do so, I suggest they will discover that the fall damaged the world at its most fundamental level. So it should not suprise us at all if people are born with all sorts of genetically determined dispositions that reflect that damaging event at the very beginning.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Actually, I take this back.

Under the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, it is possible that something doesn't exist until it is observed.

 

[Kidron]

This is circular reasoning.

Drew, there is no "gay" gene yet discovered by science after half a century of diligent search.
There is also no indisputable scientific evidence extant to support the theory that gay is "innate" regarding humans.
So, u have 2 choices.
You can decide to be tolerant and find a warm justification for same gender sex.
Or you can accept that homosexual sex is unnatural and agree with God that its an immoral situation as well as a sin, and if you do that you'll have to be able to deal with some politically correct hate., even on >christian< sites.




K
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...........

 

[Drew]

Actually, I take this back.

Under the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, it is possible that something doesn't exist until it is observed.

True, and I have always thought that there might be interesting connections between quantum physics and the domain of Christian theology.

In any event, the point remains: the fact that science has yet to clearly identify a genetic mechanism that is responsible for homosexual inclination does not mean that such a mechanism will not be discovered in the future.

 

[Drew]

Drew, there is no "gay" gene yet discovered by science after half a century of diligent search.
There is also no scientific evidence extant to support the theory that gay is "innate regarding humans.
So, u have 2 choices.
You can decide to be tolerant and find a warm justification for same gender sex.
Or you can accept that homosexual sex is unnatural and agree with God that its an immoral situation as well as a sin, and if you do that you'll have to be able to deal with some politically correct hate., even on >christian< sites.

This is not correct reasoning. You cannot simply presume that half a century of searching is enough. Scientists had been working at developing models of reality for thousands of years before quantum physics was developed.

Besides, I doubt very much that you are really aware of the state of play re this search. In this respect, I share such ignorance.

The point is this: the fact that scientific jury is arguably still "out" on this issue means that we all have to wait some more.

 

[Mike S]

Or you can accept that homosexual sex is unnatural and agree with God that its an immoral situation as well as a sin

Homosexuality is clearly not "unnatural", since it occurs naturally in small percentages in ALL species that reproduce sexually. Something doesn't have to be "unnatural" to be immoral, or a sin.

 

[Kidron]

[/SIZE][/FONT]
""""""This is not correct reasoning. You cannot simply presume that half a century of searching is enough. Scientists had been working at developing models of reality for thousands of years before quantum physics was developed."""""""


Drew, if they find a gene for murder, adultery, fornication, idolatry, lust, and gluttony, it'll still be sin as the problem in God's mind.
So, truthfully.... its not the pursuit of the cause that matters as much as the solution for it.
Lets just agree for the sake of today's tolerance agenda that the fall of Adam has created in some people an immoral and unnatural desire to have sex with the same gender early on in life and they pursued it and it became their sexual ID and just leave it at that, as "all have sinned and fallen short" is as good an answer as science will ever create a theory about this issue using your tax dollars..
See, Science has perfected the money making art of discovering a problem instead of solving the problem.
Science and Drug companies are very similar.
Both find temporary $$$$$$$ solutions $$$$$$ for a discoveries effect/symptom while the cure is seldom if ever discovered.




K
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........

 

[DarkHorseRising]

there is no "gay" gene yet discovered by science after half a century of diligent search.

It's almost certainly a polygenic trait along a QTL loci.

 

[Kidron]

Homosexuality is clearly not "unnatural", since it occurs naturally in small percentages in ALL species that reproduce sexually. Something doesn't have to be "unnatural" to be immoral, or a sin.

Rape, incest, and cannibalism also occur in nature...
Does it make it natural.?
Here is the problem with what you have stated.
You are justifying homosexual sex by basing it on the fact that some animals engage in homosexuality.
However, that they do , does not prove it natural, as an exception in nature cannot prove a rule.
In your mind, if male apes- and male horses -and male forum members- and male church deacons- have sex with each other, you view this as normal.
Well, i think that thinking that same gender sex is normal, is abnormal thinking.
I think that being tolerant of Sin is unnatural in the spiritual mind of a born again Christian.
See, if God doesn't find something natural he does not tolerate it.
And that he is long suffering does not mean he's politically correct, it just means he is very very merciful to sinners.
Mark, you should not tolerate as "normal" what God says is perverse.
If you tolerate what he says is not normal or natural and is in fact ungodly, then your mind is not like his mind.
This is why he tells you to renew your mind and in this way you can stop tolerating politically correct sin and become more God minded about all things, including Homosexual sex.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Rape, incest, and cannibalism also occur in nature...
Does it make it natural.?
Here is the problem with what you have stated.
You are justifying homosexual sex by basing it on the fact that some animals engage in homosexuality.
However, that they do , does not prove it natural, as an exception in nature cannot prove a rule.
In your mind, if male apes- and male horses -and male forum members- and male church deacons- have sex with each other, you view this as normal.
Well, i think that thinking that same gender sex is normal, is abnormal thinking.
I think that being tolerant of Sin is unnatural in the mind of a Christian.
See, if God doesn't find something natural he does not tolerate it.
And that he is long suffering does not mean he's politically correct.
You should not tolerate as "normal" what God says is perverse.
If you tolerate what he says is not normal and is in fact ungodly, then your mind is not like his mind.
This is why he tells you to renew your mind and in this way you can stop tolerating politically correct sin and become more God minded about all things, including Homosexual sex.

This line of argument is irrelevant. We're not called to emulate the behaviors found in nature. We are called to a standard of Holiness as dictated by God.

There is a big difference between tolerating a behavior and caring for the person behind it. You can hate the sin but still love the sinner.

 

[Kidron]

This line of argument is irrelevant. We're not called to emulate the behaviors found in nature. We are called to a standard of Holiness as dictated by God.

There is a big difference between tolerating a behavior and caring for the person behind it. You can hate the sin but still love the sinner.

We, as Christians,... are to have the mind of Christ.
You think that is irrelevant, and that is not a viewpoint i share, nor should any
Christian.
The mind of Christ is the mind of God.
God says that homosexual sex is unnatural and ungodly and sin.
That is his "mind" and as Christians, if we oppose his mind we have a serious issue with our mind.
And regarding loving the sinner, this goes without saying.
Jesus died for all of us and extends his nail scarred hands to all of us.

However, the context of this thread is not about loving a sinner , its about people who are theoretically "born this way", and this needs a response that clearly and soundly explains why we as Christians are not ever to view homosexual sex or homosexual lifestyle as "ok for them".
Its not ok in God's mind for a person to engage in homosexual sex...EVER.
And because we as Christians are to have God's mind, then we should only view homosexual sex exactly as the mind of God and the Word of God view it.
So, regarding homosexual sex, there is no middle ground, there is no grey area, there is no pragmatic stance, there are no situation ethics, allowed in the discussion by God.
Bottom line for a Christian.
God does not confuse love with tolerance of sinful behavior.
That is his mind, and we are to have his mind.



K

 

[DarkHorseRising]

We are to have the mind of Christ.
You think that is irrelevant, and that is not a viewpoint i share, nor should any
Christian.
The mind of Christ is the mind of God.
God says that homosexual sex is unnatural and ungodly and sin.
That is his "mind" and as Christians, if we oppose his mind we have a serious issue with our mind.
And regarding loving the sinner, this goes without saying.
Jesus died for all of us and extends his nail scarred hands to all of us.

However, the context of this thread is not about loving a sinner , its about people who are theoretically "born this way", and this needs a response that clearly and soundly explains why we as Christians are not ever to view homosexual sex or homosexual lifestyle as "ok for them".
Its not ok in God's mind for a person to engage in homosexual sex...EVER.
And because we as Christians are to have God's mind, then we should only view homosexual sex exactly as the mind of God and the Word of God views it.
So, regarding homosexual sex, there is no middle ground, there is no grey area, there is no pragmatic stance, there are no situation ethics, allowed in the discussion by God.
Bottom line for a Christian.
God does not confuse love with tolerance of sinful behavior.
That is his mind, and we are to have his mind.



K

So it seems you agree in conclusion with every single other person I've seen on this thread. The act of homosexual sex is wrong. To my knowledge, nobody is disputing this. You almost seem to be setting up a strawman argument that somehow people are, so that you can argue against it.

 

[Kidron]

So it seems you agree in conclusion with every single other person I've seen on this thread. The act of homosexual sex is wrong. To my knowledge, nobody is disputing this. You almost seem to be setting up a strawman argument that somehow people are, so that you can argue against it.

Ive front page news for you.

1.) whenever you have no response of equal value you always talk about the "strawman" argument as a way dodge the OP's post.

2.) No other Christian on this forum has made the clear and accurate and factually honest statement that,.. "the mind of God is against homosexuality and as Christians are to have his mind and never oppose it so that we can be politically corrected tolerance junkies"...
No one here but me is talking about how a Christian's mind is reasoning abnormally if it opposes the mind of God regarding any issue, including his position against homosexual sex.




K

 

[Drew]

Drew, if they find a gene for murder, adultery, fornication, idolatry, lust, and gluttony, it'll still be sin as the problem in God's mind.

Nothing I have posted suggests otherwise.

The OP asked about whether some are "born gay". I have never denied that acting on genitically determined pre-dispositions is still sin.

 

[Drew]

It's almost certainly a polygenic trait along a QTL loci.

:o.

Please explain to those of us who are not biologists (or whatever one needs to be know what a "QTL loci" is).