ARE GAY PEOPLE BORN THAT WAY ?

[Drew]

You are justifying homosexual sex by basing it on the fact that some animals engage in homosexuality.

Where, and please be specific, has this poster "justified" homosexual sex? As far as I can see, he (or she) is merely pointing out that it is "natural" for some to have a homosexual inclination.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Ive front page news for you.

1.) whenever you have no response of equal value you always talk about the "strawman" argument as a way dodge the OP's post.

2.) No other Christian on this forum has made the clear and accurate and factually honest statement that,.. "the mind of God is against homosexuality and as Christians are to have his mind and never oppose it so that we can be politically corrected tolerance junkies"...
No one here but me is talking about how a Christian's mind is reasoning abnormally if it opposes the mind of God regarding any issue, including his position against homosexual sex.




K

Nobody here but you is talking about it because it's not in dispute. You come across as silly trying to "prove" a point that nobody contests. Hence, you keep intoning that somehow people aren't quite as against homosexual sex as you are, and shame on them for it.

Because we all know, if you go more than a day without denouncing something, you are automatically a "politically correct tolerance junkie"

 

[Drew]

So it seems you agree in conclusion with every single other person I've seen on this thread. The act of homosexual sex is wrong. To my knowledge, nobody is disputing this. You almost seem to be setting up a strawman argument that somehow people are, so that you can argue against it.

Bingo.

No one here, as far as I can see, is saying that it is morally acceptable to engage in homosexual behaviour.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

:o.

Please explain to those of us who are not biologists (or whatever one needs to be know what a "QTL loci" is).

Oh sorry lol. So, it's probably (not that it really matters) that the genetic component to homosexuality is not a single yes/no gene, but rather a series of genes that control it together to some degree.

As an example, humans come in every possible height. There's no gene that codes for either 5'0 OR 5'10, with no option but the two. Rather, many genes work together in a very complex way to help express the trait (and of course environment plays a factor as well, along with nutrition etc...).

In the same way, it's quite possible that a large number of genes along a locus (fancy word for region of a chromosome) all play a very small part in it. The term for this is polygenic trait.

Of course, it's irrelevant how someone comes to homosexual temptation, as Christians our response is to obey God even if we're predisposed otherwise. But it annoys me when people talk of the need for a single "gay gene", which displays an astonishing ignorance of genetics.

 

[Drew]

But it annoys me when people talk of the need for a single "gay gene", which displays an astonishing ignorance of genetics.

To be fair, some of us use the term "gay gene" as simply a way of asserting that homosexual orientation is largely determined genetically.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

To be fair, some of us use the term "gay gene" as simply a way of asserting that homosexual orientation is largely determined genetically.

That's definitely a fair use. I've personally found people want to use it as some sort of genetic scarlet letter.

 

[Mike S]

Rape, incest, and cannibalism also occur in nature...
Does it make it natural.?
Here is the problem with what you have stated.
You are justifying homosexual sex by basing it on the fact that some animals engage in homosexuality.

There is no problem with what I've stated. Yes, rape and incest and cannibalism are "natural", because they occur in nature with fair regularity. When those things occur in other species, we don't assign a moral value to them, we simply accept them as the natural variations of the norm that they are. When they occur in our own human species, we do assgin a moral value, and consider they immoral and sinful.

However, that they do , does not prove it natural, as an exception in nature cannot prove a rule.

They are natural variations of animal behavior.

In your mind, if male apes- and male horses -and male forum members- and male church deacons- have sex with each other, you view this as normal.

I consider them to be within the spectrum of natural behavior.

Well, i think that thinking that same gender sex is normal, is abnormal thinking.

I think that being tolerant of Sin is unnatural in the spiritual mind of a born again Christian.

Who is being tolerant of sin?

See, if God doesn't find something natural he does not tolerate it.

And that he is long suffering does not mean he's politically correct, it just means he is very very merciful to sinners.
Mark, you should not tolerate as "normal" what God says is perverse.
If you tolerate what he says is not normal or natural and is in fact ungodly, then your mind is not like his mind.
This is why he tells you to renew your mind and in this way you can stop tolerating politically correct sin and become more God minded about all things, including Homosexual sex.

You seem to not be understanding my comments. There is a difference between natural (no moral value assigned) and normal (moral value assigned), there is a difference between natural and sinful.

 

[Kidron]

Nothing I have posted suggests otherwise.

The OP asked about whether some are "born gay". I have never denied that acting on genitically determined pre-dispositions is still sin.

Would you mind stating your affiliation with God and his Son so that i understand your spiritual condition as you would define it?
Thanx.


Drew,..

If you agree, as you previously stated, that there is no scientific evidence yet provided in the last 50 years that factually proves that gay is innate or genetically decided, and as you are the one who said science needs more time to find out, then why would you come now and state that homosexuality is genetically predetermined?2
Look, you cant have it both ways..
So, i am happy to discuss this issue with you, but not if you cant stick to a position.
Do you know my position?
Have i deferred it or detoured from it?
My position is clear as a bell at midnight.
Which is, every Christian must obey the mind of God as provided by his Word and his Holy Spirit, and if any Christian instead follows the course of the world's viewpoint which is always against the mind of God's truth, then that Christian has an abnormal mind of carnality and is not thinking or behaving as they should..

There is not a Christian who has a IQ that is functioning who can read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis, and then come to Israel and see the actual place is excavated and is burnt to a crisp with ashes a foot deep or more..... and then compare this to Romans Chapter 1 and conclude honestly that God is not diametrically opposed to homosexual sex and the homosexual lifestyle.
So, a Christian must not violate the mind of God by refusing to submit their mind to his truth regarding this issue.
If a Christian does this they are out of the will of God and separating themselves from the mind of Christ who in in them.
This is not a good idea.



K

 

[Kidron]

Where, and please be specific, has this poster "justified" homosexual sex? As far as I can see, he (or she) is merely pointing out that it is "natural" for some to have a homosexual inclination.

You are thinking of gay sex in a romantic Hollywood way.
Probably this is related to a lot of media imput, culturally washing the minds of Christians and nonChristians for over 2 decades with the idea of homosexual love as a good and "natural" thing.

"After all, if in heat barnyard animals can occasionally perform gay sex acts and we can then claim its their "nature"... then why not claim its normal for perish Priests and the entire Assembly of God deacon board to have a gay night out on occasion".
"After all if its found in a monkey then it must be right for a man".
"After all, humans are just animals who evolved from animals".
"so lets just act like animals and say we are evolving"..

I recall when "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" came around, and then more homosexual promoting agenda shows showed up and suddenly the idea of Gay,... to a lot of heterosexuals, became almost "cool".
This estrangement from reality, from morality, from the Truth, and from God's perspective, has just gotten to the point , even in the Christian community, that the truth has become bigotry.
Thats not a good sign, however, it is a sign of the soon coming of Jesus according to the New Testament..
So, thats a good sign.



K

 

[Kidron]

Yes, rape and incest and cannibalism are "natural", because they occur in nature with fair regularity. When they occur in our own human species, we do assgin a moral value, and consider they immoral and sinful.


Mark, actually its God who assigned a value to homosexuality in both Genesis and in Romans.
God did, and Christians must also.



They are natural variations of animal behavior.


No, these are lower animals who are in heat , and dont care about what is natural as there is no intellectual capacity within them to cause them to even know the difference..
They are just carrying out their seasonal sexual urges upon the closest available partner.



I consider them to be within the spectrum of natural behavior.

God doesn't.



Who is being tolerant of sin?


Not me.



You seem to not be understanding my comments. There is a difference between natural (no moral value assigned) and normal (moral value assigned), there is a difference between natural and sinful.


You cant assign a moral value unless its to a human, as no other living creature is made in the image of God and comes complete with a moral value system built right in.
A pig, donkey, duck, dog, rat, snake, whale, and earthworm, dont have this moral compass..
So, regarding homosexual sex between humans, it is both a moral deviation and a physical deviation from what is "right" according to the one who created morality.



K

.............

 

[Drew]

Would you mind stating your affiliation with God and his Son so that i understand your spiritual condition as you would define it?
Thanx.

I won't answer this question since it is entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

If you agree, as you previously stated, that there is no scientific evidence yet provided in the last 50 years that factually proves that gay is innate or genetically decided, and as you are the one who said science needs more time to find out, then why would you come now and state that homosexuality is genetically predetermined?2

I have never stated what you claim I have stated.

Please read my posts, and those of others more carefully - you repeatedly attribute beliefs to others that have no basis in what has been posted.

I have said that I believe that homosexuality is genetically determined and have argued at length as to why, if this belief turns out to be factually correct, this should not be surprising to Christians.

But I have never claimed that it has been determined that sexual orientation is genetically determined.

 

[Drew]

So, i am happy to discuss this issue with you, but not if you cant stick to a position.

I have given you no reason whatsoever to believe that I am not "sticking" with a position.

I have never posted anything whatsoever that a reasonable person would take to be any kind of a statement that homosexual activity is not sinful.

 

[Drew]

You are thinking of gay sex in a romantic Hollywood way.

I have no idea where this comes from.

It is very difficult to interact with you - I have to deal with your arguments that are relevant to what I have posted.

And I have to deal with stuff like the above, where you have imagined that I hold some position.

"After all, if in heat barnyard animals can occasionally perform gay sex acts and we can then claim its their "nature"... then why not claim its normal for perish Priests and the entire Assembly of God deacon board to have a gay night out on occasion".
"After all if its found in a monkey then it must be right for a man".

No one has said anything like this! Please read what we actually write and give your imagination a day off.

To agree that animals engage in homosexual activity does not entail agreement that its acceptable for humans to do so.

 

[jasoncran]

kidron, drew ISNT PRO GAY RIGHTS at all.

 

[Adullam]

All sins are learned behaviour. We pattern very early on and develop deep ruts in our souls based on early influences. But part of repentance is to fill in the valleys (as well as flatten down the mountains). We are to make a straight path for the Lord.

 

[Former Christian]

Romans 5:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)

These verses are the end of discussion for me. Whatever sin you care to name that people commit, they’re born that way. Starting with Cain. And as in the example of Cain and Abel, we have a choice to make as to whether we will go with our heredity or not.

Modern science hasn’t as yet found the means through which death is transmitted. Maybe they’ve seen it, but just don’t yet recognize it. As Sherlock Holmes said, one can see and yet observe nothing. Scientists are like that more often than not. Science only recognizes heredity in regard to physical and some mental attributes. So what we have in science is an argument from silence regarding the hereditary of the death that causes sin. At this point, science doesn’t really know how death is inherited, or care seeing as most are not Christians,. So no help there. We only have what Paul says in the above verses, and what is alluded to in the Old Testament, to go by.

What is gained from environment or learned through personal thought just exacerbates what is gained through heredity until one is in Christ. And even those who are in Christ aren’t immune to their own heredity and could succumb to it at any time. Further, there is a learning process to go through so as to succumb as least as possible in this life. A learning of how to walk according to the Spirit as much as possible.

Since most Christians think the Law is abrogated, they often succumb in ways they know not. They think the Spirit or their own conscience will tell them. Apparently not often enough. Or they’re so doctrinally minded they ignore or can’t hear what the Spirit or conscience is telling them. A seared conscience is not just for the heathen.

Personally, I wasn’t surprised at how many on this forum do NOT think denominationalism is a sin. And how many who think it might be a sin just concocted a way to ignore the sin. Even though both Jesus and Paul made it a point to point out that division in any form is missing the mark, that is, a sin. Yet these same Christians are ready to judge the gay Christian for their sin. And these same Christians will judge a Christian who doesn’t yet see that living with a woman apart from marriage as wrong....as not even being saved.

Christians tend to be judgmental. And this time I will add, they tend to be judgmental about other people’s sins more than they are their own. If they had any real sense of their own sinful nature and sinfulness, they wouldn’t be so quick to judge the sins of others.

Christian denominationalism comes out of this tendency to judge the sins of others. A tendency inherited through Adam. A human tendency. To disagree doctrinally with those considered authoritative is considered a sin punishable by closed communion or shunning. And the ones considered to have the authority, are able to judge authoritatively the sins of others while simultaneously thinking they have no sin, or worse, hiding their sin. Because as Jesus clearly taught, only the one who is without sin has the authority or the right to judge the sins of others. I don’t care how often Catholicism repeats to the contrary that through Apostolic Succession that teaching has been abolished. Never met any sinless people myself. And from what Paul said, that’s exactly how it should be. There is only one sinless person who walks the face of the earth today, and he does so through the Spirit and through those who walk by the Spirit.

NC

 

[Drew]

kidron, drew ISNT PRO GAY RIGHTS at all.

Thank you. I would qualify this by saying that I am not in favour of rights for gays over and above those granted to the rest of society.

 

[stovebolts]

All sins are learned behaviour. We pattern very early on and develop deep ruts in our souls based on early influences. But part of repentance is to fill in the valleys (as well as flatten down the mountains). We are to make a straight path for the Lord.

Hey Brother,

It's odd that you should say this. My son has a new friend. We first met him on Haloween... dressed as a girl wearing fish net stockings. My wife and I both agreed that he was playing that role just a little to good...

As the months went by, this friend of my son has come over to our house several times, and even spent his memorial day weekend with us camping, and it became very clear that the more time we spend with him, that he has many, many feminine traits. My son even says that he "Screams like a girl" and I can affirm that. But that's not his only feminine trait and I could create a very long list.

In all, we like this boy. He is very polite and respectful and he has a good head on his shoulders. He has two younger sisters (twins about 5 years old) and is being raised by a single young mother with purple hair and a revoked drivers licence. He actually has great charactar and a decent moral base.

But I do wonder if this boy will or is attracted to other boys. He certainly acts "gay", or at least what most would label gay behavior. But the fact remains that he is dating a girl, and regardless, he is welcome in our home.

But more to your point. I don't believe that his characteristics are learned, I'm positive they are genetic and he and my son are very good friends. So it will be interesting to see how the coming years go. I'm not saying that his feminine characteristics are sinful, but most affiliate those characteristics with the gay community and I suppose the point I am trying to make is that I don't believe his characteristics are learned.

Did I mention he really enjoys going to church with us?

 

[Mike S]

Hey Brother,

It's odd that you should say this. My son has a new friend. We first met him on Haloween... dressed as a girl wearing fish net stockings. My wife and I both agreed that he was playing that role just a little to good...

As the months went by, this friend of my son has come over to our house several times, and even spent his memorial day weekend with us camping, and it became very clear that the more time we spend with him, that he has many, many feminine traits. My son even says that he "Screams like a girl" and I can affirm that. But that's not his only feminine trait and I could create a very long list.

In all, we like this boy. He is very polite and respectful and he has a good head on his shoulders. He has two younger sisters (twins about 5 years old) and is being raised by a single young mother with purple hair and a revoked drivers licence. He actually has great charactar and a decent moral base.

But I do wonder if this boy will or is attracted to other boys. He certainly acts "gay", or at least what most would label gay behavior. But the fact remains that he is dating a girl, and regardless, he is welcome in our home.

But more to your point. I don't believe that his characteristics are learned, I'm positive they are genetic and he and my son are very good friends. So it will be interesting to see how the coming years go. I'm not saying that his feminine characteristics are sinful, but most affiliate those characteristics with the gay community and I suppose the point I am trying to make is that I don't believe his characteristics are learned.

Did I mention he really enjoys going to church with us?