Are some people destined for hell?

[ReginaForbes]

I had the distinct displeasure this afternoon to have the world's angriest Pre-K'er in my office for a half hour. This child has a birth defect which not only affects his motor skills, but also his brain- hence, he is unable to happy at all. Basically the child is "wired wrong". And that led me to the thought- is it possible that there are people who are born to damnation? My faith in Christ has always led me to believe in free will- that people can CHOOSE to accept God and an eternity with Him in Heaven, or reject God and face an eternity in the only place He will be absent- Hell. But what of those who are "wired wrong"? To add, I am not asking about those who are mentally delayed- I know God has made provision for those who do not know the difference between right and wrong, and who are incapable of choosing. What I am asking about is those who are intelligent enough to know right from wrong, who CAN make good choices, but because of a physical defect in the brain, are incapable of FEELING happy for making the right choice.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I had the distinct displeasure this afternoon to have the world's angriest Pre-K'er in my office for a half hour. This child has a birth defect which not only affects his motor skills, but also his brain- hence, he is unable to happy at all. Basically the child is "wired wrong". And that led me to the thought- is it possible that there are people who are born to damnation? My faith in Christ has always led me to believe in free will- that people can CHOOSE to accept God and an eternity with Him in Heaven, or reject God and face an eternity in the only place He will be absent- Hell. But what of those who are "wired wrong"? To add, I am not asking about those who are mentally delayed- I know God has made provision for those who do not know the difference between right and wrong, and who are incapable of choosing. What I am asking about is those who are intelligent enough to know right from wrong, who CAN make good choices, but because of a physical defect in the brain, are incapable of FEELING happy for making the right choice.

Hi Gina,
I've been missing your posts. I can be all wet here because I have only principal found in the Word to draw on but I must and will do so for this answer. Because there is not one person that was not formed in the womb by our God, these youngsters are made the way they are by God and yet God never forms (predestines) any humans, solely, for the purpose of living forever in Hell.

These, ¿incorrectly? wired folks will never reach the, elusive, age of accountability and falling short of that standard, IMO, they are not saved, rather, they are safe and will reside in heaven with the Saints. On what level, I know not but I expect to see them there, perfect in their Glorified Bodies.

May God bless.

 

[Knotical]

I will answer your question in two ways. By using the account of Eli's sons in 1 Samuel it is clear that there are those in this world that will never be saved, as the Lord told Samuel that there was nothing (not even the death of His Son) could save Hophni and Phinehas.

On the other hand God is the only One who knows truly who will end up in Heaven. So, it may be that we do not see evidence that a person has been saved, but that is not for us to judge. Sure we can use their actions to come to a reasonable conclusion, but their salvation is still only known by God.

 

[gr8grace3]

I will answer your question in two ways. By using the account of Eli's sons in 1 Samuel it is clear that there are those in this world that will never be saved, as the Lord told Samuel that there was nothing (not even the death of His Son) could save Hophni and Phinehas.

I find quite the opposite in 1 Samuel. The Lord tells us why they are not saved. Not that they can't be saved.
1 Sam 2:25~~New American Standard Bible
"If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

Why did the Lord desire to put the sons to death? Because they couldn't be saved? Or because they rejected their salvation in His Offering?

1 Sam 2:17~~New American Standard Bible
Thus the sin of the young men was very great(John 16:9) before the LORD, for the men despised the offering (Christ)of the LORD.

1 Sam 3:13~~New American Standard Bible
"For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them.

 

[Knotical]

I find quite the opposite in 1 Samuel. The Lord tells us why they are not saved. Not that they can't be saved.
1 Sam 2:25~~New American Standard Bible
"If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

Why did the Lord desire to put the sons to death? Because they couldn't be saved? Or because they rejected their salvation in His Offering?

1 Sam 2:17~~New American Standard Bible
Thus the sin of the young men was very great(John 16:9) before the LORD, for the men despised the offering (Christ)of the LORD.

1 Sam 3:13~~New American Standard Bible
"For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them.

You can't just look at the verses you want to look at. In verse 14 of Chapter 3 it states: "Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."

This is a very powerful statement. It literally means that not even Jesus' sacrifice will atone for the sins of Eli's sons.

 

[gr8grace3]

You can't just look at the verses you want to look at. In verse 14 of Chapter 3 it states: "Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."

This is a very powerful statement. It literally means that not even Jesus' sacrifice will atone for the sins of Eli's sons.

This verse has nothing to do with the individual salvation of Eli's sons. It is the curse(vs 13) that is to be brought upon the HOUSE of Eli.
Whats the curse?

Removal of the priestly heritage from the HOUSE of Eli forever. Eli and his house will be removed from the priestly heritage of doing the sacrifice and offering for Israel ........forever.

1 Kings 2:26-27 ~~Then to Abiathar the priest the king said, ‘Go to Anathoth to your own field, for you deserve to die; but I will not put you to death at this time, because you carried the ark of the Lord GOD before my father David, and because you were afflicted in everything with which my father was afflicted.’ So Solomon dismissed Abiathar from being priest to the LORD, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD, which He had spoken concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh

 

[Deborah13]

1Sa 3:14 and therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli: the iniquity of the house of Eli is not atoned for, by sacrifice, and by offering--unto the age.'
"Shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering - That is, God was determined that they should be removed by a violent death. They had committed the sin unto death; and no offering or sacrifice could prevent this. What is spoken here relates to their temporal death only." Adam Clarke's Commentary
Exo 12:23 `And Jehovah hath passed on to smite the Egyptians, and hath seen the blood on the lintel, and on the two side-posts, and Jehovah hath passed over the opening, and doth not permit the destruction to come into your houses to smite.
Exo 12:24 `And ye have observed this thing, for a statute to thee, and to thy sons--unto the age;
1Ch_15:2 Then said David, `None are to carry the ark of God, except the Levites, for on them hath Jehovah fixed to carry the ark of God, and to serve Him--unto the age.' age="olam"
"The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. "
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html

 

[Christ_empowered]

I was raised liberal Presby, so predistination is sort of something I was raised to believe in. "I will show mercy to whom I shall show mercy, compassion to whom I will show compassion." Somewhere in the OT...

...also, throughout the NT you have hints that salvation is for The Elect, not everybody. "and the sheep know His voice...", "...He causes all things to come together for the good of those who are called...", so on and so forth. Also, the seeds--some planted in good soil, others in rocky soil, shallow soil, eaten up by birds, etc. To me, the parable of The Lost Coin hints at predistination, but...that's just kind of how I'm slanted towards interpreting things, because I was raised Presby and had a Calvinist minister as a counselor for a lil while there.

Sometimes, I believe in parts of TULIP simply because of my experiences. Like, when I was at Teen Challenge, a 1 year program for people (the one I went to was male only) w/ problems, I saw...something. Some people, you could talk to them until you were blue in the face about salvation, and they didn't get it. Some, like me, it took a while to "click," and others got it right away. "Many are called, few are chosen."

 

[gr8grace3]

1Sa 3:14 and therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli: the iniquity of the house of Eli is not atoned for, by sacrifice, and by offering--unto the age.'
"Shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering - That is, God was determined that they should be removed by a violent death. They had committed the sin unto death; and no offering or sacrifice could prevent this. What is spoken here relates to their temporal death only." Adam Clarke's Commentary
Exo 12:23 `And Jehovah hath passed on to smite the Egyptians, and hath seen the blood on the lintel, and on the two side-posts, and Jehovah hath passed over the opening, and doth not permit the destruction to come into your houses to smite.
Exo 12:24 `And ye have observed this thing, for a statute to thee, and to thy sons--unto the age;
1Ch_15:2 Then said David, `None are to carry the ark of God, except the Levites, for on them hath Jehovah fixed to carry the ark of God, and to serve Him--unto the age.' age="olam"
"The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. "
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html

And to take it a bit farther Deb. This curse will not be atoned for. But nowhere does scripture say that this curse was eternal damnation or the LoF for Eli's sons. This curse was specific and the Lord was not going to relent of this curse. The specifics in this curse are:

1. premature physical death.

2. poverty

3. Removal from the priestly heritage........1st Samuel 2:28-36

We have to force in eternal damnation for Eli's sons, let alone a predetermined eternal damnation for Eli's sons.

 

[gr8grace3]

I was raised liberal Presby, so predistination is sort of something I was raised to believe in. "I will show mercy to whom I shall show mercy, compassion to whom I will show compassion." Somewhere in the OT...

...also, throughout the NT you have hints that salvation is for The Elect, not everybody. "and the sheep know His voice...", "...He causes all things to come together for the good of those who are called...", so on and so forth. Also, the seeds--some planted in good soil, others in rocky soil, shallow soil, eaten up by birds, etc. To me, the parable of The Lost Coin hints at predistination, but...that's just kind of how I'm slanted towards interpreting things, because I was raised Presby and had a Calvinist minister as a counselor for a lil while there.

Sometimes, I believe in parts of TULIP simply because of my experiences. Like, when I was at Teen Challenge, a 1 year program for people (the one I went to was male only) w/ problems, I saw...something. Some people, you could talk to them until you were blue in the face about salvation, and they didn't get it. Some, like me, it took a while to "click," and others got it right away. "Many are called, few are chosen."

Just keep studying. Election and predestination are for believers only!

They are what the believer is elected to and predestined for after their choice to believe.

It is not elected to salvation. it is not Predestined to salvation. It is not elected or predestined to believe.

It is what the believer is elected to and predestined for after we make the freewill choice to believe in Christ alone for our salvation.

His sovereignty devised the Plan, and His Justice executes the plan....... under perfect justice, God is not partial to anyone and therefore cannot select one and reject another arbitrarily or based on looks, station, personality, race, sex, etc. Deut 10:17;Rom 2:11

 

[Bick]

As for certain sins not be forgiven, please read 2 Cor. 5:19
"...God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." NKJV'
Christ sacrifice paid for the sins of all mankind.

 

[gr8grace3]

As for certain sins not be forgiven, please read 2 Cor. 5:19
"...God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." NKJV'
Christ sacrifice paid for the sins of all mankind.

We are in a sad state of affairs in this world today. Most believers today will disagree with you on this one. I don't though.

From the blessed Mother T. to Hitler. Those sins were judged on the Cross.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Wow! Not trying to incite anything here, but as I studied the scriptures my so-called Christian beliefs really changed over the years. Many posts here are not biblical, and are worried about someone predestined to damnation, thoughts about heaven, hell, etc. I know I don't see any of this like this at all. Or to put it another way, I don't think we even know what questions to ask. It's like someone explaining their entire foundational premise from a flat earth stance to answer everything about gravity. If the foundation is wrong, the whole thing is in error and becomes assumptions. I don't know where to begin with a thread like this so I guess I won't.

 

[gr8grace3]

Wow! Not trying to incite anything here, but as I studied the scriptures my so-called Christian beliefs really changed over the years. Many posts here are not biblical, and are worried about someone predestined to damnation, thoughts about heaven, hell, etc. I know I don't see any of this like this at all. Or to put it another way, I don't think we even know what questions to ask. It's like someone explaining their entire foundational premise from a flat earth stance to answer everything about gravity. If the foundation is wrong, the whole thing is in error and becomes assumptions. I don't know where to begin with a thread like this so I guess I won't.

So Tim, going by your favorite theologian, Newton. Does math have questions that have definite answers? Or does math kind of leave us hanging in confusion with its answers?

 

[gr8grace3]

I went to college for electronics. All math. When we built our boards, we had to trace all voltage through all the capacitors, resistors, inductors, filters,semi-conductors, Ect.. And still trying to keep in mind what was in series and what was in parallel to to come to the right voltage out. If we got the wrong voltage out at the end, the questions asked HAD to have a right answer to get to the right conclusion.

Gods word is a lot like math. There is absolute truth in it. Anybody that claims that our BASIC questions can't be answered about salvation and how He deals with mankind just hasn't figured out that they have a blown resistor in the circuit.

 

[Knotical]

This verse has nothing to do with the individual salvation of Eli's sons. It is the curse(vs 13) that is to be brought upon the HOUSE of Eli.
Whats the curse?

Removal of the priestly heritage from the HOUSE of Eli forever. Eli and his house will be removed from the priestly heritage of doing the sacrifice and offering for Israel ........forever.

1 Kings 2:26-27 ~~Then to Abiathar the priest the king said, ‘Go to Anathoth to your own field, for you deserve to die; but I will not put you to death at this time, because you carried the ark of the Lord GOD before my father David, and because you were afflicted in everything with which my father was afflicted.’ So Solomon dismissed Abiathar from being priest to the LORD, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD, which He had spoken concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh

What do you think atonement means?

 

[WIP]

What I am asking about is those who are intelligent enough to know right from wrong, who CAN make good choices, but because of a physical defect in the brain, are incapable of FEELING happy for making the right choice.

I'm wondering how an individual "feeling happy" has anything to do with salvation.

I figure, God is the potter and we are the clay. We cannot know if another person is or is not saved. That is up to God. He is in control.

Exodus 33:19 NKJV
Then He said, “...I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

 

[ReginaForbes]

Or to put it another way, I don't think we even know what questions to ask.

That's exactly how I felt when I was pondering the case of this little boy, I was trying to find the right way to word my conundrum, and descriptions failed me.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I went to college for electronics. All math. When we built our boards, we had to trace all voltage through all the capacitors, resistors, inductors, filters,semi-conductors, Ect.. And still trying to keep in mind what was in series and what was in parallel to to come to the right voltage out. If we got the wrong voltage out at the end, the questions asked HAD to have a right answer to get to the right conclusion.

Gods word is a lot like math. There is absolute truth in it. Anybody that claims that our BASIC questions can't be answered about salvation and how He deals with mankind just hasn't figured out that they have a blown resistor in the circuit.

That's my background so I can relate. Electronics and then a minor in mathematics later. That's why the Sir Isaac Newton Avatar, but he was also a theologian. And I believe I can quip that there's a lot of blown resistors in what is being stated as well. The clues to understanding salvation are in the feasts of Yahweh, and as Paul stated in Corinthians, each in their own order. Clue: we try to cram salvation in this age only and once it's done or one passes on, that's it, nothing else. This is incorrect. That's why the mention of Pentecost in a related post. Like the bible, I guess you'll have to dig where I said that.

 

[turnorburn]

In all fairness to God we should begin realizing this..

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

"8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

"9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

God knows who will never be his friend no matter what the circumstances, he knows the end from the beginning, to understand him we must go to his word not to what may seem politically correct.. take Judas as an example..

Psalm 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

tob

*edit: forgot something "again"

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.