Are the Elect the only ones who will be saved?

[brightfame52]

Friend, you are in the grips of cognitive dissonance. Your "Israel=Elect" is impossible.

According to your "formula: Israel=Elect" By your formula, Paul is saying:

What then? THE ELECT has not obtained what it seeks; but THE ELECT have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (Rom. 11:7 NKJ)

That is SELF-CONTRADICTION.

"The rest were blinded" cannot be "The Elect".

You contradict logic even a child would undersand, but cognitive dissonance doesn't permit a redo of other beliefs.

So, you refuse to acknowledge the obvious, "You are wrong."

Who was Jesus raised up a Saviour to according to promise Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Jesus is the Saviour of the Body Eph 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Now is the Body in Eph 5:23 that He is a Saviour of, the same body of people Israel that He is the Savior of in Acts 13:23 ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

We understand it a bit differently Alfred, God will remain in heaven. When Jesus hands the Kingdom back to his God and Father, the world will be back to the starting point of it's original purpose, except already filled with humans. Like Adam, they will have to be tested as well, with the release of satan. The new heavens (which exist now) and the new earth are figurative not literal. There was nothing wrong with God's creation so no need to create a new earth or heaven, rather it simply refers to their cleansing Ecc 1:4.

Yes we do. I don't ignore the progression. Christ returns, Millennial Kingdom begins. After a 1000 years of paradise earth there are billions and billions of people, But they are unsaved, haven't been tested. So Satan is let out and a good portion of them fail the test. Rebels are destroyed, Satan cast into the lake of fire, then the Great White Throne judgment where Death hell and the Sea are emptied out, and all judged. The wicked are cast into the like of fire. (Rev. 20:4-15)

Then everyone has a "supernatural body" like Christ. The Teleios (Complete revelation) replaces the Partial (incomplete revelation) of God, by the creation of a New Heavens and New Earth.

but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with. (1 Cor. 13:10 RPTE)

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:12-13 NKJ)

The one that existed is stained by the fall, the blood in the ground still crying to God, the very earth is unclean defiled.

So, God purges all in a fervent heat, nothing unclean remains.

And with a thought, as easily as you can think of a house, He creates a New Heavens and New Earth bigger, better, more Glorius than before.

When God took six days to create, it was a strain to work so slowly. He "took His time" to relish every microsecond to the fullest. He couldn't stretch it out more than six days, that wouldn't be perfect in every aspect.

If God chooses to take another six days to create the New Heavens and earth isn't revealed in scripture, but its implied He will not.

That in His Infinite Mind, its already done, only requires an "instant" more:

"For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. (Isa. 66:22 NKJ)

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is exclusively for Gods Elect, whether jew or Gentile 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they[The elect] may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
The Salvation that is in Christ Jesus is exclusively for the Elects Sake.

In the original there is a definite article for the word salvation, The Salvation in Christ Jesus is definite and particular,

Now also, it was Pauls special Ministry and Calling to reach the Gentiles/Heathen, which denotes that some of Gods Elect were not to be found among the jews only, but among the Gentiles as well

Gal 2:9

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Paul prefaced his prioroty to the Gentiles even in his letter to Timothy earlier 1 Tim 2:7

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Again in 2 Tim 1:11

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

So God had a elect remnant among the heathen gentiles Rom 15:10

And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

The elect jews with the elect Gentiles are all One Fold of Gods Elect Jn 10:15-16

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep[elect].

16 And other sheep[elect] I have, which are not of this[jewish] fold: them also I must bring, and they[elect Sheep] shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So for any deny that Gentiles are Elect, they are in error and deny the very Ministry of Paul who was sent specifically to them, again Salvation in Christ Jesus is exclusively for Gods Elect, whether jew or Gentile.

 

[JLB]

So God had a elect remnant among the heathen gentiles Rom 15:10

This is your opinion with a scripture reference, but no scripture.

Why no scripture?


Here’s why, there is no mention of Gentiles being God’s elect, in Romans 15:10 that’s why you never actually post scripture, but simply post your opinion, and just tag your opinion with a scripture reference.


And again he says:
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!”
Romans 15:10


No mention of Gentiles being God’s elect here.


We all know without a doubt that Gentiles were invited to hear the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ, and receive salvation just as the Jews were, because that is what was always promised to Abraham.


I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
Genesis 12:3

again


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

This is your opinion with a scripture reference, but no scripture.

Why no scripture?


Here’s why, there is no mention of Gentiles being God’s elect, in Romans 15:10 that’s why you never actually post scripture, but simply post your opinion, and just tag your opinion with a scripture reference.


And again he says:
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!”
Romans 15:10


No mention of Gentiles being God’s elect here.


We all know without a doubt that Gentiles were invited to hear the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ, and receive salvation just as the Jews were, because that is what was always promised to Abraham.


I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
Genesis 12:3

again


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8





JLB

I gave scripture for my view.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Salvation is exclusively for Gods Elect, whether jew or Gentile 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they[The elect] may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
The Salvation that is in Christ Jesus is exclusively for the Elects Sake.

Still waiting for you to explain why Paul says "non-Elect Israel", who didn't obtain salvation, didn't "stumble that they should fall". Their "fullness" will also obtain salvation even though they died "enemies of the gospel" (Rom. 11:28) the God who "committed them all to disobedience" will have "mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32).

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! (Rom. 11:7-12 NKJ)

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

[Upon realizing all that is Israel will be saved, even if they go through hell first where they repent and believe, caused Paul to pour out praise of God]

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 NKJ)

 

[brightfame52]

Still waiting for you to explain why Paul says "non-Elect Israel", who didn't obtain salvation, didn't "stumble that they should fall". Their "fullness" will also obtain salvation even though they died "enemies of the gospel" (Rom. 11:28) the God who "committed them all to disobedience" will have "mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32).

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! (Rom. 11:7-12 NKJ)

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

[Upon realizing all that is Israel will be saved, even if they go through hell first where they repent and believe, caused Paul to pour out praise of God]

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 NKJ)

You will be waiting a long time, you pay no attention to my explanations.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You will be waiting a long time, you pay no attention to my explanations.

But you don't explain Rom. 11:7. You ignore it, then blast me with proof texts that have NOTHING to do with it.

You should relish the opportunity to document how wrong I am. Show which words in Romans 11:7 or context "blows up" my exegesis.

But you don't. You will gather irrelevant proof texts and spam me with them.

I'm curious: After you spam posters with proof texts, do you celebrate with a "Bud Lite"?

 

[JLB]

I gave scripture for my view.

You gave no scripture at all.

You gave a scripture address.

Here is what you stated ---

So God had a elect remnant among the heathen gentiles Rom 15:10

As you can see, there is only your opinion tagged with a scripture reference.

Again, here is the scripture of Romans 15:10

Again, he says
Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people! Romans 15:10

As we see, there is no mention of Gentiles being the elect.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

You gave no scripture at all.

Okay

 

[JLB]

Salvation is exclusively for Gods Elect, whether jew or Gentile 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they[The elect] may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
The Salvation that is in Christ Jesus is exclusively for the Elects Sake.

That the elect may also obtain salvation.


No one is guaranteed salvation.

Only those who obey Jesus Christ will receive everlasting salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

No one is guaranteed salvation.

The elect are Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

When God says something shall be, its a promise !

So tell me, according to this scripture, whats the promise ?

 

[JLB]

jlb



The elect are Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

When God says something shall be, its a promise !

So tell me, according to this scripture, whats the promise ?

No mention of elect in
Isaiah 45:17.


Elect refers to those elected for purpose, not elected to salavation.


Only those who obey the LORD will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

No mention of elect in
Isaiah 45:17.

Israel

 

[Alfred Persson]

You will be waiting a long time, you pay no attention to my explanations.

"Salvation is exclusively for Gods Elect, whether jew or Gentile"-Brightfame52

Paul contradicts your binary construct, salvation includes "the elect" and "the rest"

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
...
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness (4138 πλήρωμα pleroma)! (Rom. 11:7, 11-12 NKJ)

Those "not elect" didn't "fall" forever, they achieve "fullness" = salvation.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:26-32 NKJ)

As a Pharisee (Ac. 22:3; 23:6; 26:4-5) Paul was very familiar with "three classes" who rise on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the "Middling People". "All Israel" or "fulness" would include the "Middling People":

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, "Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
"The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] "The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] "Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] "If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] "If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death."
[G] Said R. Abin, "What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: 'Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.' 'Let them be blotted out of the book'-this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. '[… of the] living'-this refers to the book of the righteous. 'Let them not be inscribed among the righteous'-this refers to the book of middling [people]."-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.


Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness (4138 πλήρωμα pleroma)! (Rom. 11:12 NKJ)

d. πλήρωμα (LN 59.32) (BAGD 4. p. 672): ‘fullness’ [BECNT, ICC2, LN, NICNT, NTC, WBC; KJV, NIV], ‘completeness’ [LN], ‘full number’ [AB], ‘full strength’ [HNTC], ‘full return’ [CEV], ‘inclusion (of Jewish people)’ [GW], ‘fulfillment’ [BAGD; NASB], ‘fulfilling’ [BAGD], ‘full restoration’ [NET], ‘full inclusion’ [NRSV], ‘full strength’ [REB], not explicit [NCV, TEV]. This noun is translated as a verb phrase: ‘finally accept’ [NLT]. This noun denotes a total quantity, with emphasis upon completeness [LN].-Abernathy, D. (2009). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 9–16 (p. 142). SIL International.

This construct is implied in John's vision of Judgment Day where multiple books are opened implying the Elect are not the only Persons saved on Judgment Day

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names in it cannot be "the Elect" because they can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16).

This construct is implied in John's vision of Judgment Day where multiple books are opened."

Our LORD Jesus Christ rejected Rabbinic Tradition that contradicted the Word of God (Mt. 15:4-9). However, Jesus likened some Pharisee Tradition to "treasure":

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

 

[brightfame52]

"Salvation is exclusively for Gods Elect, whether jew or Gentile"-Brightfame52

Paul contradicts your binary construct, salvation includes "the elect" and "the rest"

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
...
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness (4138 πλήρωμα pleroma)! (Rom. 11:7, 11-12 NKJ)

Those "not elect" didn't "fall" forever, they achieve "fullness" = salvation.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:26-32 NKJ)

As a Pharisee (Ac. 22:3; 23:6; 26:4-5) Paul was very familiar with "three classes" who rise on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the "Middling People". "All Israel" or "fulness" would include the "Middling People":

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, "Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
"The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] "The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] "Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] "If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] "If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death."
[G] Said R. Abin, "What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: 'Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.' 'Let them be blotted out of the book'-this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. '[… of the] living'-this refers to the book of the righteous. 'Let them not be inscribed among the righteous'-this refers to the book of middling [people]."-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.


Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness (4138 πλήρωμα pleroma)! (Rom. 11:12 NKJ)

d. πλήρωμα (LN 59.32) (BAGD 4. p. 672): ‘fullness’ [BECNT, ICC2, LN, NICNT, NTC, WBC; KJV, NIV], ‘completeness’ [LN], ‘full number’ [AB], ‘full strength’ [HNTC], ‘full return’ [CEV], ‘inclusion (of Jewish people)’ [GW], ‘fulfillment’ [BAGD; NASB], ‘fulfilling’ [BAGD], ‘full restoration’ [NET], ‘full inclusion’ [NRSV], ‘full strength’ [REB], not explicit [NCV, TEV]. This noun is translated as a verb phrase: ‘finally accept’ [NLT]. This noun denotes a total quantity, with emphasis upon completeness [LN].-Abernathy, D. (2009). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 9–16 (p. 142). SIL International.

This construct is implied in John's vision of Judgment Day where multiple books are opened implying the Elect are not the only Persons saved on Judgment Day

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names in it cannot be "the Elect" because they can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16).

This construct is implied in John's vision of Judgment Day where multiple books are opened."

Our LORD Jesus Christ rejected Rabbinic Tradition that contradicted the Word of God (Mt. 15:4-9). However, Jesus likened some Pharisee Tradition to "treasure":

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

I see no contradiction.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I see no contradiction.

"And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says,`The old is better.'" (Lk. 5:39 NKJ)

You might reconsider when a loved family member dies, who never was properly evangelized and ends up in hell.

When Paul realized "All Israel" would be saved, even those who died enemies of the gospel, he broke out in effusive praise of God:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-12:1 KJV)