Are we accountable for our sin?

[glorydaz]

Jesus died for our sins so we wouldn't have to. Explain.

Imagine an extreme scenario: Someone murders several people by gunning them down and then flees from the scene in their car. During their escape they crash the car and suffer a serious concussion, which incurs amnesia. The next morning they wake up in the hospital and remember nothing and feel as if nothing wrong happened (to their knowledge). Are they still guilty even if they have no recollection of their crime, and swear with great sincerity that they would never be capable of commiting such a henious crime (and imagine the bizzare scenario of them hearing of the news on TV and tearing up and saying 'that's aweful')?

I say they absolutely are guilty. The lesson: we are guilty of sins which me may not even know anything about. That extreme scenario has many additional alternate side effects & considerations such as prior, deliberate decision to commit the crime. But on a lesser/more practical scale sometimes in our daily lives we commit sins of which we may not be aware, and we need redemption from even those sins.

Psalm 19:12 says, "Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults." Also, Psalm 90:8, "You have placed our iniquities before You, Our secret sins in the light of Your presence." Many laws in Leviticus also deal with unintentional or unnoticed ("hidden") sins, and it showed (even in the law of Moses) that we need cleansing from all sins: known or unknown, intentional or unintentional, hidden or obvious.

God Bless,

~Josh

Yes, man is without excuse. We are given a conscience by God. Claiming ignorance is no excuse for sin. All men sin and come short. The sooner we realize we have no excuse, the sooner we realize we all stand guilty. Thus the need for the blood's cleansing.

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

 

[Cornelius]

No, we're cleansed from ALL sin. I have to wonder why we have so many people doubting the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells those who have been born again of the Spirit. I believe you are confusing the "professing Christians" with the true body of Christ. No believer I know deliberately sets out to sin. Whatever happened to the idea of searching one's own soul instead of constantly pointing fingers at their brothers in the Lord. There must be more discernment in the body. Has it gotten to the point that we see all kinds of "sinning" believers behind every corner? Or have we become so gullible that we think all those people living in sin are truly a part of the body of Christ?

Sorry brother, you are not talking in agreement with the Word. We are not cleansed from willful sin. We carry the penalty ourselves for that sin. That is why we see so many Christians under the curse.

I will quote the Bible for one last time I am not here to argue with you. People must read this for themselves and see if it indeed says that we are cleansed from willful sin or not. If "no more sacrifice for sins " means we still have a sacrifice, then I ask for forgiveness for my ignorance.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Only Christians can commit willful sin, because the Bible never speaks about those who are still unsaved in this manner. They are all still indeed bound to sin. All their sins are willful, because they have not decided to serve God yet.

 

[Mysteryman]

Jesus' sacrifice was for ALL sin...not just unknown sin or accidental sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

Of course Jesus died for all sin .....up to the point of salvation. Even murder. But after He has cleansed you, you are suppose to walk a clean life through His power and grace that HAS BEEN given to you already to enable you to live a godly life 2Pe 1:3 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,

But the Bible says that now we have been cleansed. And we do not have the freedom to go back and sin willfully . We will still unknowingly and accidentally , but if indeed we have repented we will produce the fruit of repentance. Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

This means, walk as a holy person and do not claim "salvation" as an excuse , while we carry on in willing sin Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? and if we willingly stay within that sin, we are unrighteous , 1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God ?

Jesus did not die for the sin of murder !

 

[Cornelius]

Paul is speaking to Christians here . It's "we"(Christians) , not "them" (unbelievers)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

"werewith he WAS sanctified" . This is a Christian because unbelievers are definitely not sanctified.

 

[elijah23]

Any loving parent will punish their child for misbehavior. The Lord punishes us for misbehavior, I believe. It’s for our own good.

In the end we all die. Except we don’t really die. We pass on to the resurrection, don’t we?

 

[ronniechoate34]

Any loving parent will punish their child for misbehavior. The Lord punishes us for misbehavior, I believe. It’s for our own good.

In the end we all die. Except we don’t really die. We pass on to the resurrection, don’t we?

2Co:5:6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co:5:7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co:5:8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co:5:9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co:5:11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2Co:5:12: For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

 

[glorydaz]

No, we're cleansed from ALL sin. I have to wonder why we have so many people doubting the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells those who have been born again of the Spirit. I believe you are confusing the "professing Christians" with the true body of Christ. No believer I know deliberately sets out to sin. Whatever happened to the idea of searching one's own soul instead of constantly pointing fingers at their brothers in the Lord. There must be more discernment in the body. Has it gotten to the point that we see all kinds of "sinning" believers behind every corner? Or have we become so gullible that we think all those people living in sin are truly a part of the body of Christ?

Sorry brother, you are not talking in agreement with the Word. We are not cleansed from willful sin. We carry the penalty ourselves for that sin. That is why we see so many Christians under the curse.

I will quote the Bible for one last time I am not here to argue with you. People must read this for themselves and see if it indeed says that we are cleansed from willful sin or not. If "no more sacrifice for sins " means we still have a sacrifice, then I ask for forgiveness for my ignorance.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Only Christians can commit willful sin, because the Bible never speaks about those who are still unsaved in this manner. They are all still indeed bound to sin. All their sins are willful, because they have not decided to serve God yet.

We see the offering is "once for all". This is speaking of those who have "trodden under foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing....done despite unto the Spririt of "Grace". Those who have done despite unto the Spirit of Grace are those who look to the law for their salvation. Those who follow a doctrine of works instead of relying on the blood of Christ. There is no sacrifice for those who claim righteousness any other way than through justification by grace through faith.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.... 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Willful sin is not the one "unpardonable sin", so it can not be referring to those who have been converted. All sin is willful for those not under the law...the law is what made some things sin without people realizing they'd broken the law...to say Christ only died for our unintentional sin is incorrect. Unbelief is the one unpardonable sin. Those who saw the miracles and attributed them to satan, those who believe by following the law they will have their sins covered, those who think they must work in order to have their sins covered. That's what this portion of scriture is talking about. The Jews who rejected the Messiah have no sacrifice for sin.

Jesus told the Jews, you have seen and heard of me (knowledge of the truth) and still you do not repent. He is talking about people who know to do right and keep right on sinning. There is no sacrifice for sins until a person repents and turns to Jesus. The whole chapter of Heb. is speaking of the difference between priests under the law and Jesus' priesthood.

 

[archangel_300]

I thought I'd post this here.
I was reading another thread a few days ago and thought mondar had an excellent explanation of the passage in Hebrews. At least for me it was like the lights turned on.

The willful sin is not just any sin. I put in red a phrase that follows verse 26. The willful sin in the context is counting "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing..." The willful sin is for Jewish person, or Hebrew person who were among believers to return to the law as a means of justification. Such behavior would trod "underfoot the Son of God." This is the willful sin. Jewish people were leaving the christian assembly (see 10:25) and returning to Judiasm. The were leaving Christ for the Pharisaical Law. These Jews received a "knowledge of the truth." They did not have a faith in the truth and so went back to Judiasm. The judgment spoken of is the judgment of the law. Read Dueteronomy 28-29 and see the curses of the Law.

*** Is not focusing only on the underlined part quoting it out of context? Yes? No? Do we have to read verses 26 & 27 with the later part of the quote? Is the "willful sin" "treading underfoot the blood" by returning to Temple Judiasm?

 

[glorydaz]

Paul is speaking to Christians here . It's "we"(Christians) , not "them" (unbelievers)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

"werewith he WAS sanctified" . This is a Christian because unbelievers are definitely not sanctified.

You're still not reading the chapter in it's entirety. He is speaking about the Old Covenant and the Old priesthood. The people were, indeed, sanctified under the Old Covenant.

And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

Paul is a Jew, remember, and he is also speaking to the Jews...those who sought redemption under the law and counted the method of salvation by grace an unholy thing. This is speaking of apostacy, when men despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour... despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier, and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life.

 

[glorydaz]

I thought I'd post this here.
I was reading another thread a few days ago and thought mondar had an excellent explanation of the passage in Hebrews. At least for me it was like the lights turned on.

The willful sin is not just any sin. I put in red a phrase that follows verse 26. The willful sin in the context is counting "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing..." The willful sin is for Jewish person, or Hebrew person who were among believers to return to the law as a means of justification. Such behavior would trod "underfoot the Son of God." This is the willful sin. Jewish people were leaving the christian assembly (see 10:25) and returning to Judiasm. The were leaving Christ for the Pharisaical Law. These Jews received a "knowledge of the truth." They did not have a faith in the truth and so went back to Judiasm. The judgment spoken of is the judgment of the law. Read Dueteronomy 28-29 and see the curses of the Law.

*** Is not focusing only on the underlined part quoting it out of context? Yes? No? Do we have to read verses 26 & 27 with the later part of the quote? Is the "willful sin" "treading underfoot the blood" by returning to Temple Judiasm?

Exactly.

I wish I could have said it as well.

 

[cyberjosh]

I say they absolutely are guilty. The lesson: we are guilty of sins which me may not even know anything about.

God tells us that we have to know about the sin, before He makes you guilty of it.

Jas 4:17 To him therefore that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. meaning some of the things you do that is wrong , and you do not know YET they are wrong: God does not hold you accountable for it.

This was not the case in the time of the Law. But you and I are under Grace now. That is indeed "Good News"

You are held accountable only when you KNOW something is wrong and you still go ahead and do it.

With respect brother Cornelius, that is not true because Paul himself said, "For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord" (1 Corinthians 4:4). Perhaps we are emphasizing different aspects (because I don't disagree about consciously sinning), and obviously James 4:17 is correct, but the Scripture is clear that there are also hidden sins (as I quoted from Psalms 19:12, etc.). Perhaps they are revealed later to us by God (which is why the Psalmist and Paul here mention the Lord "examining" them, and searching their hearts, see Psalm 139:23-24 where God can expose our "hurtful ways"), but we may not be immediately aware that we have sinned unless convicted (yet my prior ignorance - which, yes, God may overlook - is still sin which must be covered & atoned for).

But if, on the other hand, I have calloused my conscience (and I even as a Christian unfortunately still have certain calluses) to be insensitive to certain sins (perhaps a sin of the tongue, like James reprimands other Christians for doing) does not therefore absolve me from guilt of the sin of what I spoke with my tongue. Also in the OT you could touch a dead animal by accident and nonetheless still be defiled, regardless of intent (which is why God was gracious enough to provide cleansing from common sources of defilement). Do you understand what I am saying now?

Also I am talking about individual sins & associated guilt for sin, not justification (for a justified Christian can still sin, when we slip into the flesh). Obviously the point about being conscious of sins has its place, but this does not mean any sins of which we are not conscious is not sin (as Paul seemed to be saying in 1 Corinthians 4:4).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Sorry brother, you are not talking in agreement with the Word. We are not cleansed from willful sin. We carry the penalty ourselves for that sin. That is why we see so many Christians under the curse.

Are you saying that a Christian cannot be acquitted of sins after salvation? That would invalidate and contradict 1 John 1:9 which is spoken in light of the fact that all Christians still sin and that we are liars if we say we do not sin. It would also then be impossible to obtain a "good conscience" (1 Timothy 1:5; Hebrews 13:18; 1 Peter 3:16, 21) before God if this were the case, for we would incur an insurmountable amount of debt to sin (Romans 6:6; 2 Peter 2:19) and its guilt if Christ were not our sacrifice for sins, past, present, and future. I am talking about cleansing for repented sin, not active apostasy.

Yes, we live with the consequences of our sin, but Christ will cleanse us from all confessed unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

 

[cyberjosh]

For the record brother Cornelius, I am not trying to be antagonistic but am only trying to understand what you are saying. Often I agree with you, so I am in fact surprised to find some points on which I would now seem to differ with your understanding of Scripture.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Cornelius]

For the record brother Cornelius, I am not trying to be antagonistic but am only trying to understand what you are saying. Often I agree with you, so I am in fact surprised to find some points on which I would now seem to differ with your understanding of Scripture.

God Bless,

~Josh

Hi brother

Yes I think we are just misunderstanding each other.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing against myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God.

Paul is saying: I know nothing against myself, but this fact (hereby) does not mean that I do not have hidden sins, because God is the One who will bring this to light.. I am not justified by the fact that I do not know about these sins, its the Lord that must make this judgement. (Would you say this is a fair way to put it? )

We have to understand the blood covering. You are not held accountable for sins that are covered, even though they are there hidden in our ignorance. If you look at the way God made Israel conquer the land, you will see it was little by little , so that the beasts would not overtake the land after the original owners (type for the old man/sin) has moved out.

The fact that we have sins that we do not know about, does not bring us back under the curse. Only when the Lord has opened our eyes to a specific sin and it is now "in the open" . Now we have to overcome it with the Lord. Any effort on our part to not do this, is seen as rebellion by God. We then move from "hidden sin" to "willing sin".

 

[Cornelius]

Are you saying that a Christian cannot be acquitted of sins after salvation? That would invalidate and contradict 1 John 1:9 which is spoken in light of the fact that all Christians still sin and that we are liars if we say we do not sin. It would also then be impossible to obtain a "good conscience" (1 Timothy 1:5; Hebrews 13:18; 1 Peter 3:16, 21) before God if this were the case, for we would incur an insurmountable amount of debt to sin (Romans 6:6; 2 Peter 2:19) and its guilt if Christ were not our sacrifice for sins, past, present, and future. I am talking about cleansing for repented sin, not active apostasy.

Yes, we live with the consequences of our sin, but Christ will cleanse us from all confessed unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Yes we can still sin , as we have seen when we speak about unknown sins. For those you will not be held accountable. You are also not held accountable for sins that you have repented of, but having difficulty overcoming. Those "presumptuous" sins keep making you stumble , but you are against them . If you are not in rebellion and you are standing with God against this sin: This one too is under the blood. Until you overcome it. However, any effort on your part in not wanting to overcome it, is seen by God as "willing sin" then...again moving you to a place where the curse can get to you.

All of the above will be in agreement with the scriptures you have quoted.

But now, we have to know the whole doctrine about sin , because some sins cannot and do not fit in with the rest. That would be 1) Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and 2 ) willing sin.

So when we look in perspective we see that indeed we have different ways that we sin and they have different consequences :

1) Repented sin with victory (You overcame) Obviously this is forgiven and forgotten
2) Repented sin with still no victory, but you are in faith and standing with God against it . (Its under the blood and you are not held accountable)
3)Unknown sin (Its under the blood and you are not held accountable)
4) Willing sin. You know its wrong but will do it anyway. (There is no sacrifice for this sin and you have to pay for it yourself.Like David with Bathsheba : They lost their baby as a result of their sin, although they were eventually forgiven.)

Willing sin, if we refuse to repent of it, will bring us into a position where we stand against God in rebellion. If we persist in it and there is no heart to repent: We will be reprobated by God. Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Cornelius]

For the record brother Cornelius, I am not trying to be antagonistic but am only trying to understand what you are saying. Often I agree with you, so I am in fact surprised to find some points on which I would now seem to differ with your understanding of Scripture.

God Bless,

~Josh

Thank you, I do not see antagonism in your posts.

You know that our posts have a "spirit" too ! When we write, our hearts are more visible than when we speak. So on forums, its easy to spot those who like to argue . Your posts do not have that spirit.

your brother
C

 

[Cornelius]

Sorry about all the posts ! but I want to drop something into your midst.

The reason most of the church sees sin as impossible to overcome totally is because they misunderstand the word "faith". Most think it only means believe IN God. Well, faith obviously is also believing God not just IN Him. Its believing the Word and then living accordingly.

So we must use faith to overcome sin. Step one would be to start believing and confessing Rom 6:11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

We think we have the freedom to disagree with the Word. But in reality God says "Reckon yourselves dead to sin" . When we read here what people say, they are doing the opposite: They reckon themselves alive to sin" They forget Rom 6:6..... that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; That is clear, is it not? "no longer be in bondage to sin" !

When we refuse to believe something like this, because our "realty perception" tells us that this is not our reality, then we are OUT of faith. So God cannot bring the manifestation of this into our lives.

Here are the only people who are justified from sin , no matter what our teachers teach us: Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin. Obviously not talking about real death, but its talking about "death to self"..death of the sinful nature. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. How clear is that ! "have been".past tense !

So faith in the DONE works will bring us to a place of victory where we can indeed overcome sin.

 

[cyberjosh]

Ah, thank you for your candid responses Cornelius. I will revisit your posts when I have a little more time.

God Bless!

In Christ,

~Josh