Bible Study Are works important or not 3?

[JohnDB]

So in a nutshell, you believe in works based salvation?

That's not what he is saying at all. Just the reverse.
Sufficient faith enough for salvation (by God) causes a person to perform good works. And anything else is usually just an empty claim of faith and is not enough faith that God will recognize being sufficient for salvation.
Romans 8 covers this extensively

 

[Jim Parker]

From the Master Himself:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

That is pretty simple......

That's an abuse of scripture.
IF you believe that Jesus is LORD then you will do what he commands.
The simple agreement with Jesus that He is Lord is not faith.
Faith without works is dead.
Belief without works is also dead.

Why do you have such a problem with accepting the fact that, as a Christian, you are expected BY GOD to act like a Christian?
Why do you fight against the fact that we are actually supposed to do the things that Jesus and the apostles taught we should do?
I don't get it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Faith causes works.

NO.
IF that were so than all the scriptures I have posted would have been unnecessary. Every believer would just have been reprogrammed by faith and would just start doing good works like a robot.
By faith we believe that we should do what the scriptures tell us we should do but, we have to make the decision to actually exert the effort to do them.
WE are responsible for our actions and we will be judged by our works.
(Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12 - 14)
NOWHERE does scripture say we will by judged by our belief.
Faith is not a cause that brings about an effect.
Faith inspires us to do God's will but we must decide to do it or not.

 

[Jim Parker]

So in a nutshell, you believe in works based salvation?

No. Not what you mean by "Works based salvation."
Jesus asked, "Why do you call me "'Lord, lord' and don't do the things that I tell you?" Luke 6:46
Jesus said: "Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching." John 14:23

You will be judged by your works. Why would you have a problem doing the good works that your were created in Christ Jesus and which, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)

I do not understand all the resistance from Christians when they are told that scripture says they should act like Christians.

 

[Jim Parker]

Faith placed exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, will always produce proper works by the Holy Spirit.

So you think God makes you a puppet or a robot?
You don't think you are at all involved in what you do?
You think you will just start doing good works automatically?

That's not faith.
That programming.
That's how you get a machine to do what you want.
You are not a machine.

 

[KevinK]

No. Not what you mean by "Works based salvation."
Jesus asked, "Why do you call me "'Lord, lord' and don't do the things that I tell you?" Luke 6:46
Jesus said: "Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching." John 14:23

You will be judged by your works. Why would you have a problem doing the good works that your were created in Christ Jesus and which, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)

I do not understand all the resistance from Christians when they are told that scripture says they should act like Christians.

I'm not personally resisting, just trying to understand in detail how the whole system works.

 

[civilwarbuff]

And scripture further teaches us that faith, if it is not combined with works, will not fulfill the necessity of having faith in order to be saved.
Many people complain that obeying Christ and the instructions of scripture as to how to live as a believer are, somehow, "legalism" and "salvation by works". That is 100% false. We were created to be like Christ. (God's image) Making excuses for why we really don't have to be like Christ is not going to impress the One who will Judge mankind by their works.

ead Romans 10:5-18


Of Filthy Rags and Transformed Hearts

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your
heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it
is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it
is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
~Romans 10:9-10

Digging Deeper: You cannot be saved by your good works, because no matter how hard you try, your “good” is not good enough for the perfectly holy and completely righteous God who alone grants salvation. Nor can you be saved by your moral perfection—no matter how moral or how perfect you are. As the Old Testament prophet Isaiah points out, your righteousness is about as good as a “snot rag”. (Isaiah 64:6). I have actually cleaned that up a bit, because the Hebrew phrase for filthy rags, ukabeged ehdim, literally means, “like as rags of menstruation.”

Sorry if that disgusts you, but it’s Scripture—so blame Isaiah. The point is, both our acts of righteousness, and the quality of righteousness that we hope they produce, are disgusting to God. So if you are disgusted by Isaiah’s language, think of how God, who inspired Isaiah to choose those coarse words, is repulsed by our efforts to get him to save us.

So what hope, then, is there for our salvation? Well, frankly, no hope resides within us. None whatsoever. Ephesians 2:1 says “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins.” That’s how hopeless we are apart from God’s work to save us. You see, all a dead person can do is lay there and be dead, let alone try to be righteous before God.

No, our righteousness—and let’s be clear, we do have to be righteous to be acceptable to God—comes from Christ alone. And here’s how that is possible: God sent his Son to die on the cross, to hang there as our sin, in order to pay the just punishment for sin that we deserved. That is our only hope, that Jesus became sin—our sin—and in so doing, he likewise became our righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21 says it well,

“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him
we might become the righteousness of God.”

How dishonoring, then, it is to God’s grace and to Christ’s atonement when we try to save ourselves by our acts of righteousness and our efforts at moral perfection. The sooner we realize that, the sooner, we’ll join Paul in saying,

“I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing
Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them
[our best efforts] rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him,
not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law,
but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness
that comes from God and is by faith.”
(Philippians 3:8-9)
http://raynoah.com/2009/11/18/romans-10-of-filthy-rags-and-transformed-hearts/

 

[civilwarbuff]

That's an abuse of scripture.
IF you believe that Jesus is LORD then you will do what he commands.
The simple agreement with Jesus that He is Lord is not faith.
Faith without works is dead.
Belief without works is also dead.

Why do you have such a problem with accepting the fact that, as a Christian, you are expected BY GOD to act like a Christian?
Why do you fight against the fact that we are actually supposed to do the things that Jesus and the apostles taught we should do?
I don't get it.

So you would add to what the Master Himself says? I won't walk down that road.....

 

[civilwarbuff]

That's an abuse of scripture.
IF you believe that Jesus is LORD then you will do what he commands.
The simple agreement with Jesus that He is Lord is not faith.
Faith without works is dead.
Belief without works is also dead.

Why do you have such a problem with accepting the fact that, as a Christian, you are expected BY GOD to act like a Christian?
Why do you fight against the fact that we are actually supposed to do the things that Jesus and the apostles taught we should do?
I don't get it.

John 3:15.....the Master of Life has already told you what is necessary for eternal life.......why would anyone want to add to it and make it more difficult?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Now we just need an antinomian to take your challenge.

Can't wait...

I have nothing against nomians. I don't understand why anyone would.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Here is where we differ......you say obliged meaning obligated to do good works because he commands it.
I say we desire to do good works not because He commands it but because of what He has done for us; to show our love and appreciation for his sacrifice and to demonstrate the same to others.

Exactly my view as well.

 

[JohnDB]

NO.
IF that were so than all the scriptures I have posted would have been unnecessary. Every believer would just have been reprogrammed by faith and would just start doing good works like a robot.
By faith we believe that we should do what the scriptures tell us we should do but, we have to make the decision to actually exert the effort to do them.
WE are responsible for our actions and we will be judged by our works.
(Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12 - 14)
NOWHERE does scripture say we will by judged by our belief.
Faith is not a cause that brings about an effect.
Faith inspires us to do God's will but we must decide to do it or not.

Abraham believed God and that faith was credited to him as righteousness. It was the driving force behind all of Abraham's actions.

 

[Papa Zoom]

My yoke is easy and my burden is light. Now here, take this list of do's and don'ts and follow them exactly. You know, like you did when you were Jews. Remember these? http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm Now we got some new and improved laws to burden you with.

And don't forget to "act" like a Christian. Don't smoke, don't chew, or go with boys that do!

And above all, don't feel guilty for not meeting them all. No biggie. You'll just go to hell with the rest of the worthless human race.

Love, Jesus

 

[Pegasus]

If we say that Jesus is our LORD then we are obliged to do what He commanded.

I would say, if we love Him we do what he said to do. The first act of love is to share His Good News.

It has nothing to do with the law of Moses.
It has to do with obeying God and acting like we actually believe in Jesus and trying to be like Him.

Unfortunately, for some law keeping is a way to keep score with their own perceived righteousness. Which is a damnable false gospel.

I would say faith heavily implies faithfulness. We are the bride of Christ. Which means using that metaphor, we should be chaste and not spending our betrothed time in Las Vegas.

If a believer has a problem with trying to obey the word of God then I have to wonder if the belief is real

Seems to be the warnings and admonishment the apostles left with us. Along with calling false anything implying Grace plus something else.

Romans is a great dissertation on Grace and living holy lives. We all do well heeding how Paul begins and ends the dissertation.

 

[Pegasus]

Here is where we differ......you say obliged meaning obligated to do good works because he commands it.
I say we desire to do good works not because He commands it but because of what He has done for us; to show our love and appreciation for his sacrifice and to demonstrate the same to others.

Glad you mentioned that. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Paul pretty much puts to rest the whole "free will" debate.

Now Romans 6 in full context:


Romans 6: New King James Version (NKJV)
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to morelawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Pegasus]

But, since He is my God, I do his will (to the best of my ability) because He loves me and I love Him.
I do His will, not because He commands me to do it but because I want to show my love of Him.
We get the same results but for different reasons......

This is the difference between the old and new covenant.

Ezekiel 36: NKJV

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

 

[Jim Parker]

I would say faith heavily implies faithfulness.

Faith is meaningless without faithfulness.

Along with calling false anything implying Grace plus something else.

So James' comments are false?
Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my[fn] works.
Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Jas 2:24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Grace is what God does.
Faith and faithfulness is what we do.
We actually co-operate with God.

 

[Jim Parker]

Abraham believed God and that faith was credited to him as righteousness. It was the driving force behind all of Abraham's actions.

ALL his actions?
Like when he has Ishmael by Hagar?
Like when he told the king that Sarah was his sister? (two times)
Jas 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Do you not take responsibility for your own actions?
Does your faith make you do things you really don't want to do?
Does the Holy Spirit force you to do things you don't want to do?
Or do you choose to do what is right because you have faith that what the scriptures say is right is truly right?

 

[Jim Parker]

So, I provided 154 passages of scripture containing about 6820 words which contain teaching about how a Christian should act and some folks immediately responded with, "We're not saved by works." or "That's a works based salvation teaching."

Nope.

It's just God's word telling us how we should behave.

Should we take God's word literally?

Should we take God's word seriously?

Should we take God seriously?

Rhetorical questions.........

 

[iLOVE]

So you think God makes you a puppet or a robot?
You don't think you are at all involved in what you do?
You think you will just start doing good works automatically?

That's not faith.
That programming.
That's how you get a machine to do what you want.
You are not a machine.

Due to the fall, the flesh always wants to go beyond Gods way (Romans 8:1-2). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil does have good in it that Satan uses to deceive the Saints. The Apostle Paul said, "the good he had done deceived him (despite all of his efforts to live for the Lord by means of Law-keeping, he failed - for what the law could not do") Romans 8:3-4

The Law says do - Grace says done! He must increase, but I must decrease. John 3:30