Bible Study Are works important or not 3?

[Edward]

Abraham believed God and that faith was credited to him as righteousness. It was the driving force behind all of Abraham's actions.

This is a huge demonstration of faith in action. God had promised Abraham that his seed would be more numerous than the sand of the sea and the stars of heaven...and Abraham had this before his eyes constantly, day by day, wandering in the desert. You think he didn't think about that as he was in the desert? Lol. And then of course Issac was his only son at the time...and God said, give him to me in sacrifice.

On it's face, this was a ridiculous request! Issac wasn't a child anymore, and Abraham & Sarah were already old back when she became pregnant with Issac and this was years later...This request was enough to make any man think twice about it. But Abraham?! He seemed to take it in stride. Figuring that if God said it, then He can make it happen. That must've been a long walk for Abraham, walking out to do the sacrifice, knowing how much he loved his son Issac...Wow. But he did do it and obeyed God and trusted that God would do what He said He would do. That's some serious faith right there, no wonder it was counted as righteousness to him for it.

 

[JohnDB]

This is a huge demonstration of faith in action. God had promised Abraham that his seed would be more numerous than the sand of the sea and the stars of heaven...and Abraham had this before his eyes constantly, day by day, wandering in the desert. You think he didn't think about that as he was in the desert? Lol. And then of course Issac was his only son at the time...and God said, give him to me in sacrifice.

On it's face, this was a ridiculous request! Issac wasn't a child anymore, and Abraham & Sarah were already old back when she became pregnant with Issac and this was years later...This request was enough to make any man think twice about it. But Abraham?! He seemed to take it in stride. Figuring that if God said it, then He can make it happen. That must've been a long walk for Abraham, walking out to do the sacrifice, knowing how much he loved his son Issac...Wow. But he did do it and obeyed God and trusted that God would do what He said He would do. That's some serious faith right there, no wonder it was counted as righteousness to him for it.

Much of the Law was based upon Abraham's lifestyle (as well as the other Patriarch's).
It took real faith to believe that an animal could really atone for sin under the Old Law. (It was never really a "pay for play" system). It was more about reminding God about walking the blood path.

And that's the Crux of why people behaved. Everything from the Alphabet to the food they ate to the holidays they observed and even houses and clothes were all about having faith in God. But they forgot why they did these things and they became rituals instead of heart changing faith for them...and they put faith in themselves instead of God. Forgetting that there was a "good" reason why Abraham was God's friend.

And these "laws" and "works" that Jim Parker has referenced refer more to loving God and "your neighbor" than some form of Legalistic action.

 

[Edward]

Does it go too far to say that, we should not do works...unless the Holy Spirit guides us to?

Have you ever heard Pastor Kenneth Haggin's testimony? He said that after pastoring his church for 16 years...that the Lord appeared to him and said, now it is time for you to begin your ministry for me...

Pastor Haggin's jaw almost hit the floor, as he thought back to his 16 years of hard work in his church as a Pastor, and the Lord said to him, I never told you to Pastor a church, it's not in the record in the books in heaven...

Wow, what an eye opener. Now it doesn't say that we are not to do good works, but it does say that we are to be led of the Spirit. That's moment by moment my Brother's and Sisters. So if we are not being led by the Spirit of God, then it may not even count towards anything. No glorification of God, no build up your treasures in heaven...wasted time.

 

[Edward]

Much of the Law was based upon Abraham's lifestyle (as well as the other Patriarch's).
It took real faith to believe that an animal could really atone for sin under the Old Law. (It was never really a "pay for play" system). It was more about reminding God about walking the blood path.

And that's the Crux of why people behaved. Everything from the Alphabet to the food they ate to the holidays they observed and even houses and clothes were all about having faith in God. But they forgot why they did these things and they became rituals instead of heart changing faith for them...and they put faith in themselves instead of God. Forgetting that there was a "good" reason why Abraham was God's friend.

And these "laws" and "works" that Jim Parker has referenced refer more to loving God and "your neighbor" than some form of Legalistic action.

God does want us to obey Him. That is veerry important. After Jesus came, the 10 commandments were essentially summed up in two of them. Te first of which is to love God with all of our heart soul and mind. The second is like unto it but to love your neighbor as yourself. That covers a lot of ground, and if we fail to do this, we're essentially turning our backs on our faith and our God by not loving our neighbors as ourselves. Without works, our faith is dead. Fit to be spewed out of God's mouth at that point, and to run the risk of hearing the Lord say, I never knew you.

To whom much is given, much will be required. So there's not really a case to be made for oh don't do any good works, wouldn't want to slip into legalism her her...that's a lack of fear and reverence to God right there. The danger of being a hearer and not a doer is real and we have been warned. It's almost akin to getting a job and then not producing, you run the risk of being fired. (No pun intended). By their fruits you will recognize them.

 

[Jim Parker]

Due to the fall, the flesh always wants to go beyond Gods way (Romans 8:1-2). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil does have good in it that Satan uses to deceive the Saints. The Apostle Paul said, "the good he had done deceived him (despite all of his efforts to live for the Lord by means of Law-keeping, he failed - for what the law could not do") Romans 8:3-4

The Law says do - Grace says done! He must increase, but I must decrease. John 3:30

You didn't answer the question.
God, who is ultimately responsible for the writing of scripture, has given the people of faith many instructions about how we are to behave.
Do you think we can ignore those instructions from God and still claim to have faith and to be saved?
I doubt it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Much of the Law was based upon Abraham's lifestyle

???? Please clarify

It was more about reminding God about walking the blood path.

???? Please clarify

 

[iLOVE]

You didn't answer the question.
God, who is ultimately responsible for the writing of scripture, has given the people of faith many instructions about how we are to behave.
Do you think we can ignore those instructions from God and still claim to have faith and to be saved?
I doubt it.

This is what the LORD says: "Cursed are those who put their trust in mere humans, who rely on human strength and turn their hearts away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5 NLT

Revelation 1:6 says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 2:9) (Exodus 19:6)

We need "The Golden Bells (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit) and the Pomegranates (The Fruit of the Holy Spirit that gives us victory over sin) Exodus 28:34 NIV. If you have two bells and no fruit bouncing against each other you have 1 Corinthians 13:1, clanging cymbals.

One without the other produces an inconsistency and it is a problem. To say you don't need both is doubt and unbelief which is never acceptable to God. The Bell presents the power and the Pomegranate presents relationship. You must have the development of both. These are two different works of the Holy Spirit; the fruits and the gifts. The Golden Bells and the Pomegranate is a TYPE.

JSM

 

[iLOVE]

You didn't answer the question.
God, who is ultimately responsible for the writing of scripture, has given the people of faith many instructions about how we are to behave.
Do you think we can ignore those instructions from God and still claim to have faith and to be saved?
I doubt it.

Are we justified by Faith alone (Romans 5:1) or are we justified by works and not faith alone (James 2:24 NASB)? The answer is we justified by works and not faith alone (James 2:24 NASB)? For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:10). No love (fruit of the spirit) makes your Faith not genuine.

Faith placed exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, will always produce proper works by the Holy Spirit. This is the only Faith God will recognize. Anything and everything that is not of the Spirit is "dead faith." Lifeless Faith is profitless (rotten fruit). James 2:14-18

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

1. Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
2. The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
3. The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
4. That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.

Pastor Jimmy Swaggart

 

[Pegasus]

Faith is meaningless without faithfulness.

So James' comments are false?
Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my[fn] works.
Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Jas 2:24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Grace is what God does.
Faith and faithfulness is what we do.
We actually co-operate with God.

This is what I was getting at:

Romans 11: NKJV

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[Jim Parker]

This is what the LORD says: "Cursed are those who put their trust in mere humans, who rely on human strength and turn their hearts away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5 NLT

Revelation 1:6 says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 2:9) (Exodus 19:6)

We need "The Golden Bells (The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit) and the Pomegranates (The Fruit of the Holy Spirit that gives us victory over sin) Exodus 28:34 NIV. If you have two bells and no fruit bouncing against each other you have 1 Corinthians 13:1, clanging cymbals.

One without the other produces an inconsistency and it is a problem. To say you don't need both is doubt and unbelief which is never acceptable to God. The Bell presents the power and the Pomegranate presents relationship. You must have the development of both. These are two different works of the Holy Spirit; the fruits and the gifts. The Golden Bells and the Pomegranate is a TYPE.

JSM

You still didn't answer the question.

And the question is: "Do you think we can ignore those instructions from God and still claim to have faith and to be saved?"

It's really not that complicated a question.
There are two possible answers: "Yes" and "No."

 

[Jim Parker]

Faith placed exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, will always produce proper works by the Holy Spirit. This is the only Faith God will recognize. Anything and everything that is not of the Spirit is "dead faith." Lifeless Faith is profitless (rotten fruit). James 2:14-18

So, is that a "No, we cannot ignore God's instructions and still claim to be saved."?

 

[Jim Parker]

This is what I was getting at:

Romans 11: NKJV

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So, according to your understanding of Romans 11:5 You don't have to obey God, you just have to "have faith"? (Whatever that means!)
IS that what you are telling me? We don't have to obey God?

 

[civilwarbuff]

So, according to your understanding of Romans 11:5 You don't have to obey God, you just have to "have faith"? (Whatever that means!)
IS that what you are telling me? We don't have to obey God?

It seems to me that we do what God wants not because He commands us to but simply because we desire to.
What is better: Obedience that is given because it is demanded or obedience that is given willingly through desire?

 

[Jim Parker]

It seems to me that we do what God wants not because He commands us to but simply because we desire to.

Then why is there so much outrage when I point out that we need to obey God?

What is better: Obedience that is given because it is demanded or obedience that is given willingly through desire?

Is there a difference? If God says "Do not murder." and one person who was planning a murder says, "I better not disobey God so I won't commit murder." and another person who was planning a murder says, "I want to obey God so I won't commit the murder." the outcome is the same. Both obey God.

And all this begs the question.
Are works important?
Do we really need to obey God?

Why won't anyone give me a straight "yes" or "no" answer to that question? (Rhetorical question)

 

[civilwarbuff]

Then why is there so much outrage when I point out that we need to obey God?

Because your emphasis is on the 'command'.....'demand'.....'we have to' as opposed to it being a desire on our part.....

Is there a difference?

Of course there is a difference.....

Why won't anyone give me a straight "yes" or "no" answer to that question? (Rhetorical question)

The answer has been given:
We can obey God through command or desire. If you are afraid of God obey him because of his commands; if you love God obey him because of love......that is my perspective.

 

[Jim Parker]

Because your emphasis is on the 'command'.....'demand'.....'we have to' as opposed to it being a desire on our part.....

Those aren't my words; they are Jesus' words. ("Command" is. I don't believe I've used the word "demand.")
And my question wasn't about our desire; it was about doing what God has said we should do.
As far as I can see, it doesn't matter whether you do what God says because he commanded it any you are obeying or you want to do what God commanded/instructed/required/whatever.

We can obey God through command or desire. If you are afraid of God obey him because of his commands; if you love God obey him because of love......that is my perspective.

Then why does pointing out that God has given us instruction as to how we are to live give you heartburn?

 

[Pegasus]

So, according to your understanding of Romans 11:5 You don't have to obey God, you just have to "have faith"? (Whatever that means!)
IS that what you are telling me? We don't have to obey God?

Frankly your beef is with St Paul not me. He said we don't work for our salvation.

Now if your point is those who are in Christ are called to purity, then I would resoundingly say yes because St Paul taught that as well:

1 Thessalonians 4: New King James Version (NKJV)
Plea for Purity
4 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

The horse comes before the cart.

 

[JohnDB]

???? Please clarify

???? Please clarify

Genesis 15:9-18 describes God "walking the blood path". This is a covenant between God and Abraham with the performance of the covenant upon whoever walked the path of blood between the pieces. (God walked it)

Now the resulting performance was going to be with Abraham's descendants.
In order to be recognized as a descendant of Abraham's you had to dress and behave like Abraham... like you had been a member of his household.
Which is why 10% was the standard offering. (As Abraham had done with Melchizedek) and the defense of the widow, orphan, and fatherless.
(Apiru/Hebrew is an Egyptian word meaning homeless wanderer and Abraham was their King)

 

[Jim Parker]

Frankly your beef is with St Paul not me. He said we don't work for our salvation.

So he didn't say:
Eph 4:20-32 But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore, putting away lying, "[Let] each one [of you] speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another.

"Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.

Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with [his] hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.

Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.

And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Or any of the rest of the 98 passages from Paul that I posted for you.

It's not just about OUR salvation.
2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

There are millions of people out there who are going to hell because there was so little difference between the Christians and the Pagans that they rejected it all as religious nonsense. One of the reasons is the constant preaching, "Oh! You don't have to do good works!". The good works aren't for you. They're for the thirsty, the hungry, the naked, the alien, the imprisoned and the sick so that they experience the love of God first hand from OUR hands.

It's not just about MY salvation. God so loved the WORLD. Our good works are for the salvation of mankind so that they see them and praise God in heaven. (Mat 5:16 again)

just trying to clarify

 

[Jim Parker]

Genesis 15:9-18 describes God "walking the blood path". This is a covenant between God and Abraham with the performance of the covenant upon whoever walked the path of blood between the pieces. (God walked it)

Now the resulting performance was going to be with Abraham's descendants.
In order to be recognized as a descendant of Abraham's you had to dress and behave like Abraham... like you had been a member of his household.
Which is why 10% was the standard offering. (As Abraham had done with Melchizedek) and the defense of the widow, orphan, and fatherless.
(Apiru/Hebrew is an Egyptian word meaning homeless wanderer and Abraham was their King)

Oooookaaaaay

But none of the Law of Moses is based on Abraham's lifestyle.
It is based on God's holiness.
That's why the Law is holy and good. (Rom 7:12)