Are You a Fundamentalist?

[Jim Parker]

(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[Edward]

Mods, forgive me for not posting a Scripture in my OP. I did now know what I could post, as the scope of the question encompasses the entire Bible (a rather large reference). Maybe I should repost this in the Lounge. I would have, but then I realized the propensity for debate on an issue like this. How to handle?

Proverbs 25:2??

 

[smaller]

(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[Jim Parker]

(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[smaller]

(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[Jim Parker]

(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[Kidron]

Hello to you , too.

Yes, it was during that time when apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists were writing the New Testament.

Of course you overlooked the fact that those NT scriptures were not available to the vast majority of people until the invention of a printing press with movable type in the 1500's and that, even then, most of the population was illiterate and, if they could read, could still not afford to own a Bible.
There has never been a time when the scriptures by themselves were considered sufficient for every individual to understand how to practice their faith. Since there were scriptures in existence, beginning with Moses, there were people whose job it was to interpret the scriptures for the people so that they could understand how to do God's will. That's why God placed the 5-fold ministry within the church.
That not everyone is able to understand the meaning or written documents without assistance you have most eloquently demonstrated.

Here is the issue.
What does the church of Roma the Catholic Church use for their final authority.???
They ither use the Epistles of the Apostles (BIBLE), or they use the cannon of the Church =(Pope) (2nd vatican council) (council of trent), etc... that is all man made by Catholics.
if you say they use both, then they are adding to the Scriptures their man made doctrine.
If you say they use the Epistles of the Apostles as found in the Vulgate or the "original greek" or however you want to try to slip the question, then fine, you've still proven my point.

In the end, ither the Epistles found in the NT are the final authority for the Body of Christ, or they are not.
There is no, "but, uh, ummm, see, the greek texts and ummmm, well, translators........ummm, ".... = nonsense.
Ither the bible is the word of God and the final authority and we believe it, or we believe "what the church teaches", or we have our opinion as our god.

Now according to what you have written, you believe that the church is the final authority and the bible is to be used sort of like a commentary.
My Bible tells me to "study to show myself approved unto God", and that verse is talking about the bible.
Its not talking about the 30 extant greek texts.
Its not talking about the writings of Calvin, or St. Augustine, or Origen.
Its not talking about commentaries on the bible.


K

 

[smaller]

Which sects of Orthodoxy do that?

iakov the fool

It is perhaps wisely forbidden to engage in that discussion.

 

[Jim Parker]

Look,....... you are ducking the issue.

No, I'm not. (Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult and attack. Obadiah.)


How about "None of the above?"

I'm not a RC so I can't answer for them. (Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm and personal insults. Obadiah)

And that's not what we were talking about, anyway.

There was never a time in the history of the church, until way after the Protestant schism, when it was believed or taught that all anyone needed was a copy of the scriptures and he would be led by the Holy Spirit into all truth. (Dispensational Baptists and Pentecostals can't have both been led into the really true truth by the same Holy Spirit and come to opposite conclusions.)

As I pointed out, it wasn't until after the 16th century that owning a personal copy of the scriptures became a possibility for the vast majority of people so they had to depend on what the clergy taught. That is why God put the 5-fold ministry in the church. That is why the scriptures are read at every liturgy and there is a sermon in which the preacher explains what the scriptures mean to us and how to apply them to our daily lives. That is the way it has been since the church was established at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

In the end, ither the Epistles found in the NT are the final authority for the Body of Christ, or they are not.

The ENTIRE Bible is the final authority, not just the NT.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm and personal insults. Obadiah)

Ither the bible is the word of God and the final authority and we believe it, or we believe "what the church teaches", or we have our opinion as our god.

Since the majority of believers are not equipped and qualified to interpret scripture, God placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the church for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

So, if God (according to your personal favorite apostle; Paul) placed those ministries in the church, why do you insist that nobody needs them? (Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm and personal insults. Obadiah)

Those ministers taught "what the church teaches" the same as every preacher does in his sermon on Sunday morning and in the Wednesday evening Bible study.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm. Obadiah)

Now according to what you have written, you believe that the church is the final authority and the bible is to be used sort of like a commentary.[/QUOTE]

I never said anything like that. Where did you get that idea?

What you favorite apostle Paul said is that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth. (Not every Joe Blow with a 3rd grade education and a copy of the abridged KJV Bible.)

The 5-fold ministry was put in the church BY GOD to do the interpretation and explanation of the scriptures.

My Bible tells me to "study to show myself approved unto God", and that verse is talking about the bible.

Right. That's the way the KJV translates it. A better rendering is "be diligent to show yourself approved." That's what happens when you depend on your own (Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insults. Obadiah)ability and use a translation written in a language you don't speak.

And Paul was talking to Timothy as a Bishop of the church (Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm. Obadiah)

Its not talking about the 30 extant greek texts.

There are over 30,000 extent Greek texts of the New Testament. (Edited, ToS 2.4,personal insults. Obadiah)

Its not talking about the writings of Calvin, or St. Augustine, or Origen.

That's hardly possible since those men hadn't been born yet. And Calvin was declared a heretic by the Synod of Jerusalem.

Its not talking about commentaries on the bible.

At that time, there were no commentaries on the NT since it hadn't been completed yet. (Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm and personal insults. Obadiah)

 

[Kidron]

I'm not a RC so I can't answer for them.
As I pointed out, it wasn't until after the 16th century that owning a personal copy of the scriptures became a possibility for the vast majority of people so they had to depend on what the clergy taught. That is why God put the 5-fold ministry in the church.
The ENTIRE Bible is the final authority, not just the NT.
Thus you endorse ignorance. Well done. The fruit of that endorsement is quite evident in your posts.
Since the majority of believers are not equipped and qualified to interpret scripture,
So, if God (according to your personal favorite apostle; Paul) placed those ministries in the church, why do you insist that nobody needs them? Do you know better than God? Apparently you think you do.
Those ministers taught "what the church teaches" the same as every preacher does in his sermon on Sunday morning and in the Wednesday evening Bible study.
You do attend a church, don't you? Go to Bible studies?

I'm not a RC so I can't answer for them.

I had assumed by your avatar that you were RC.
Ok, well, whatever type of Catholic you are?????, you should study the Bible as your final authority.
"study to show thyself approved unto GOD". = the bible.





As I pointed out, it wasn't until after the 16th century that owning a personal copy of the scriptures became a possibility for the vast majority of people so they had to depend on what the clergy taught. That is why God put the 5-fold ministry in the church.
The ENTIRE Bible is the final authority, not just the NT.



And the 5 fold ministry in 2015, needs to have a final authority.
This needs to be the bible.
If it isnt then they have no business teaching anyone, anything.



Thus you endorse ignorance. Well done. The fruit of that endorsement is quite evident in your posts.


I didnt endorse anything, i only pointed out that you have no excuse to believe that the bible is not the final authority.
The BIBLE WAS CREATED to be the final authority.
This is the purpose of its existence.


Those ministers taught "what the church teaches" the same as every preacher does in his sermon on Sunday morning and in the Wednesday evening Bible study.


Actually the ministers that trained me teach the Bible.
Sorry to hear that all your teaching came from whatever your particular church teaches.
Now, lets get back to the point.
The Epistles were created by Apostles, via inspiration given by the Holy Spirit.
From these, the Body of Christ has learned the Christian doctrines that are necessary for our faith that are found in the BIBLE.
Without the Bible, this would not have happened no matter how many "5 fold ministers" were running around by the millions.
So, your final authority has to be the word of God as all the doctrines for the Body of Christ are found in it, JP.

If it isnt the final authority then people like you will be teaching erroneous and dangerous theology such as....."we must be born again by water".
Hey JP< if you teach a person that, and they die having trusted the water instead of JESUS< then you just sent them to hell.
Follow me?
See it?
So, it takes a bible to insure that young believers or any believers are not let astray by teachers like you, who first cast doubt on the authority of the scriptures and then mangle the scriptures to try to teach a false man-made "church" theology regarding the most important doctrine of all.....>how to being born again<.
So, the bible as the final authority insures that the body of Christ is protected from the type dangerous teaching that you and others of your ilk & your denomination try to teach, = as you say you get your theology and doctrine from your"church" as the bible YOU SAID is not your final authority or the final authority of your church.
So THAT is why the bible is not the supplement of the 5-fold ministry, but rather it is the AUTHORITY OVER the 5-fold ministry.
This is why your bible teaches you that "the word of the Lord endures forever".....and not the 5-fold ministry.
If it were not for the BIBLE then how would the people on this FORUM even know what Jesus said or Paul taught?

You should be ashamed to be on a Christian forum, trying to cast doubt on the bible as somehow inferior to people that teach it in the 5-fold ministry.
That is ridiculous and dangerous.....not only to believe but to teach.



K

 

[turnorburn]

Which sects of Orthodoxy do that?

iakov the fool

i can think of one...

tob

 

[smaller]

i can think of one...

tob

iakov is of the other (Edited, sarcasm. Obadiah) orthodox sect.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm not a RC so I can't answer for them.

I had assumed by your avatar that you were RC.
Ok, well, whatever type of Catholic you are?????, you should study the Bible as your final authority.
"study to show thyself approved unto GOD". = the bible.

I do study my Bible. (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness. Obadiah)

[/QUOTE] And the 5 fold ministry in 2015, needs to have a final authority.
This needs to be the bible.
If it isnt then they have no business teaching anyone, anything. [/QUOTE]

I have never said that the scriptures are not the final authority. I said that the interpretation of the scriptures is the responsibility of the 5-fold ministry not every uneducated, untrained, blowby with a Bible.


[/QUOTE] I didnt endorse anything, i only pointed out that you have no excuse to believe that the bible is not the final authority. The BIBLE WAS CREATED to be the final authority. This is the purpose of its existence. [/QUOTE]

(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insults. Obadiah)

Actually the ministers that trained me teach the Bible. Sorry to hear that all your teaching came from whatever your particular church teaches.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm and personal insults. Obadiah)

 

[Jim Parker]

(Removed, off topic and failure to follow the requests of staff. Obadiah)

 

[KevinK]

Wow. Mods: feel free to lock this one permanently if you want. I never expected it to go like this.

 

[Kidron]

I do study my Bible. Maybe you could quit telling people what they should do.
I have never said that the scriptures are not the final authority. I said that the interpretation of the scriptures is the responsibility of the 5-fold ministry not every uneducated, untrained, blowby with a Bible.


iakov the fool

That you would even suggest that anyone who is not involved in the 5 fold ministry is a "blowby" with a bible, is a severely egotistical and self righteous thing to say, JP.
You have just insulted every non-5-fold ministry person on this forum who studies their bible and loves their bible and allows the Holy Spirt to lead them into all truth ...as these are the people you just labeled as "uneducated, untrained, blowby's'".
As for me, ive been in the 5-fold since '91, and have been to seminary, etc, and yet i encourage people to trust their bible and study their bible.
i would never tell them that they are not qualified to read it or understand it if they are not in the 5-fold ministry.
You just did.


take care,

K

 

[smaller]

(Removed. Response to a removed post. Obadiah.)

 

[Jim Parker]

(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insults. Obadiah)

 

[Kidron]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

(Edited, ToS 2.4, sarcasm and personal insults. Off topic. Obadiah)