Are You Able to Disprove this Evidence for When Jesus Said He Would Return?

[tim-from-pa]

And I think you are absolutely right. It has to be of a certain time to gain the knowledge. I too have watched Mark Biltz videos and his conclusion of the evidence is outstanding. Perhaps showing others some of his work may be a good thing? He too speaks of the time-lines and shows the facts of just how precisely it all fits into the Biblical Calendar.

Well keep the info coming in, It certainly is the most interesting find in a long time!

Here's a good Mark Biltz video:

‪Mark Biltz; Blood Moons And Solar Eclipses Part 1‬‏ - YouTube

I seem to remember watching him before somewhere, but I never remember him giving the specific dates that OSASArminian did, unless that is, I did not watch enough of him. I think even the late J.R.Church had something on about the lunar tetrad a few years back.

These are definitely exciting times. To quote the Bible "Come Lord Jesus!"

 

[OSASArminian]

And I think you are absolutely right. It has to be of a certain time to gain the knowledge. I too have watched Mark Biltz videos and his conclusion of the evidence is outstanding. Perhaps showing others some of his work may be a good thing? He too speaks of the time-lines and shows the facts of just how precisely it all fits into the Biblical Calendar.

Well keep the info coming in, It certainly is the most interesting find in a long time!

The problem with Mark Biltz is he pretribber onlyists so he made some bad calls for 2008-2010. Let me explain. He thinks the whole Church is going to be raptured before the Tribulation. As a consequence he reads the book of Revelation improperly with the rapture wawy back in Rev. 4 and thinks the Seals are the Tribulation. But if he believed in partial rapture he would see that there is no rapture in Rev. 4 (John is just taken up in spirit to see the vision) and these 24 elders are the 24 archangels, the eldest elders of the universe, and the Seals are the past 20 centuries commensurate with Rev. 2 & 3 the 7 church periods. The first Seal is Jesus by the cross giving Satan a deadly wound, for observe the bow and arrow look like a cross, but the arrow has been shot.

As per partial rapture Rev. 6.12 occurs before the Tribulation. The 3 events of Rev. 6.12 are 2011, 2013 and 2014/15. And the first rapture according to readiness (3.10) is Rev. 7.9 "before the throne" before the trumpets of the Tribulation (8.7ff).

 

[OSASArminian]

Here's a good Mark Biltz video:

‪Mark Biltz; Blood Moons And Solar Eclipses Part 1‬‏ - YouTube

I seem to remember watching him before somewhere, but I never remember him giving the specific dates that OSASArminian did, unless that is, I did not watch enough of him. I think even the late J.R.Church had something on about the lunar tetrad a few years back.

These are definitely exciting times. To quote the Bible "Come Lord Jesus!"

J.R. Church suffered from the same false teaching of pretrib onlyism as Mark Biltz thus producing an incorrect timeline from misreading the Bible.

Before you can understand the timeline correctly I have given, you must believe in partial rapture to understand it otherwise you won't make sense of it. So start with partial rapture,

[video=youtube;xtAARTaI5H4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtAARTaI5H4[/video]

 

[Lehigh3]

Jesus said in the 1st century in Revelation that all the things must shortly take place. He also said He was coming quickly.

That is the proof that you must try to disprove.

I'll believe the Bible.

 

[OSASArminian]

Jesus said in the 1st century in Revelation that all the things must shortly take place. He also said He was coming quickly.

That is the proof that you must try to disprove.

I'll believe the Bible.

Shortly come to pass in the backdrop of a trillion years, 2000 years is very short.

 

[Pizzaguy]

And any great battle that looks like Armageddon would come long before 2025 since there is no oil left by 2035 except at over $1000 a barrel.

Where did you get that baloney from?

If you are as wrong about theology as you are about geology... ;)

 

[Pizzaguy]

Eschatology is the modern church's version of gnosticism, with each and every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes along claiming to have secret, inside knowledge about this stuff; always claiming to be led, of course, by the Holy Spirit.

I don't think I can argue with THAT.

 

[OSASArminian]

Where did you get that baloney from?

If you are as wrong about theology as you are about geology...

From one the major global reporting agencies on oil. They say there is only 900 billion barrels of oil left. I don't pretend to know more than them but just take them on as the best information I have.

Even Exxon said major contagion is going to occur before 2017 and there is basically no way around it.

I am glad you can't find anything wrong with my theology.

Praise the Lord!

 

[OSASArminian]

Someone is right about eschatology. We can't all be wrong.

I propose to you that I am right because nobody could prove otherwise.

And because my arguments are solidly showing why all other end time views are wrong.

 

[Pizzaguy]

From one the major global reporting agencies on oil.

That is not an answer. That is a cop-out of the level of a late-night infomercial.

And if you saw some article stating such a thing, and then ran off making up your theology based on it - you do yourself a great dis-service.

I am 51 years old. I have REPEATEDLY read that "we will run out of oil by...." I was taught in high school that oil would be gone by 2000. That was eleven years ago. I was taught that the greatest oil reserves are in the middle east. But today, there are geologists that insist that greater oil reserves are to be found in Russia, the Americas and China.

I guess my point is this: search long enough and you will find someone, somewhere, saying what you want to hear.

 

[Stormcrow]

Shortly come to pass in the backdrop of a trillion years, 2000 years is very short.

But He didn't say in a trillion years or 2,000 years! He said "this generation."

{16} "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, Matthew 11:16 (NASB)

{39} But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; {40} for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:39-40 (NASB)

{41} "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Matthew 12:41 (NASB)

{42} "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. Matthew 12:42 (NASB)

{45} "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." Matthew 12:45 (NASB)

{4} "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away. Matthew 16:4 (NASB)

{17} And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me." Matthew 17:17 (NASB)

{35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:35-36 (NASB)

{34} "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 (NASB)

{12} Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation." Mark 8:12 (NASB)

{38} "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Mark 8:38 (NASB)

{19} And He *answered them and *said, "O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!" Mark 9:19 (NASB)

{30} "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Mark 13:30 (NASB)

{31} "To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? Luke 7:31 (NASB)

{41} And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you and put up with you? Bring your son here." Luke 9:41 (NASB)

{29} As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. Luke 11:29 (NASB)

{50} so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, {51} from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.' Luke 11:50-51 (NASB)

{25} "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:25 (NASB)

{32} "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. Luke 21:32 (NASB)

{40} And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" Acts 2:40 (NASB)

{15} so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, Philippians 2:15 (NASB)

Even Josephus - who was not a follower of Christ but who certainly alludes to meeting Peter and Paul - understood the nature of the generation in which he lived:

And truly so it happened, that though the slayers left off at the evening, yet did the fire greatly prevail in the night; and as all was burning, came that eighth day of the month Gorpieus [Elul] upon Jerusalem, a city that had been liable to so many miseries during this siege, that, had it always enjoyed as much happiness from its first foundation, it would certainly have been the envy of the world. Nor did it on any other account so much deserve these sore misfortunes, as by producing such a generation of men as were the occasions of this its overthrow.

Josephus, Wars, 6.8.5

The 70 weeks were all fulfilled by the time 70AD rolled around, just as Daniel prophesied:

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

Daniel 9:26 LXX

You can't support your star-gazing and date-setting Biblically, because the Bible doesn't support the premises upon which you've founded everything else.

 

[Stormcrow]

Do you see how nonsensical your view is? Suffice it to say you have excluded yourself from the reward of being in the first rapture as well as the reward of returning to reign during the 1000 years, assuming you are a Christian, but I don't assume.

Isn't it amazing? This short simple thought destroys all your writings in one fell swoop.

My apologies, I didn't realize you were legalist. Funny. Let's pray you get deliverance from your petty self.

"Abominations...make desolate" (Dan. 9.27). I am sorry to hear you reject the Trinity also.

This isn't about me, however it's been my experience that people who can't rationally support their own arguments often resort to making their detractors the subject of the discussion.

You came onto this forum and your first post was provocative to say the least:

Are You Able to Disprove this Evidence for When Jesus Said He Would Return?

It appears you only came looking to pick a fight with people who wouldn't see it your way. And when I took up your challenge to tell you what the Bible clearly says about these issues - you called my salvation and beliefs about completely unrelated doctrines into question.

Might I suggest that if you don't like your ideas challenged, you don't throw down the gauntlet the way you did and then try to smear your detractors when they take you seriously.

For what it's worth. 2

 

[tim-from-pa]

J.R. Church suffered from the same false teaching of pretrib onlyism as Mark Biltz thus producing an incorrect timeline from misreading the Bible.

Before you can understand the timeline correctly I have given, you must believe in partial rapture to understand it otherwise you won't make sense of it. So start with partial rapture,

While I openly talk like there's one rapture in the church, actually I, as do you, believe there's several. There were some even in the OT foreshadowing this catching away. The reason why there's a timing conflict as to when the "rapture" will occur is because everyone is right, and everyone is wrong.... there's several, but the problem lies when everyone restricts their belief to "just one". That's where the contradictions arise.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Someone is right about eschatology. We can't all be wrong.

I propose to you that I am right because nobody could prove otherwise.

And because my arguments are solidly showing why all other end time views are wrong.

I have what I call the "false prophet" theorem.

It goes like this:

If there are n prophets, each with their own unique message, then we can be assured that at least n-1 prophets are false (since there is only one truth) and possibly ALL of them may be wrong.

It's the mathmatics in me (since the bible is an extremely mathematical book)

 

[OSASArminian]

That is not an answer. That is a cop-out of the level of a late-night infomercial.

And if you saw some article stating such a thing, and then ran off making up your theology based on it - you do yourself a great dis-service.

I am 51 years old. I have REPEATEDLY read that "we will run out of oil by...." I was taught in high school that oil would be gone by 2000. That was eleven years ago. I was taught that the greatest oil reserves are in the middle east. But today, there are geologists that insist that greater oil reserves are to be found in Russia, the Americas and China.

I guess my point is this: search long enough and you will find someone, somewhere, saying what you want to hear.

That's your hang up with oil. The situation is only right now since peak oil was reached in 2005. Hubbert was right, he predicted the downturn not just for USA but also for the world. He was spot on.

 

[OSASArminian]

But He didn't say in a trillion years or 2,000 years! He said "this generation." Even Josephus - who was not a follower of Christ but who certainly alludes to meeting Peter and Paul - understood the nature of the generation in which he lived:

I see how you are misreading Matt. 24.34. Matt. 24.34 is not referring to the destruction of the Temple but to when Israel becomes a nation again (v.32). You are mixing things up.

v.34 “This generationâ€â€”The Greek text is genea, not aion. The Chinese deem 30 years to be a generation; the West reckons 40 years as such. Neither calculation is applicable here, for had it been either case, all these things would have had to have been fulfilled in the lifetime of those living at the time of Matthew and thus all would have become past history. On the basis of such an interpretation (that is, that the meaning of “generation†is in terms of a given period of years) the historians maintain that Matthew 24 is already past: they argue that Titus destroyed Jerusalem exactly 40 years after the Lord had spoken these words recorded here in verse 34 and that therefore the word “generation†is here used in its most general sense.

Some try to avoid the problem by changing “generation†into “raceâ€â€”the race of the Jewish people. But this is unlikely because (1) Matthew 1.17 says, “So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generationsâ€; (2) we must not alter a word simply because of a difficulty, and (3) had this word been “race†in its translation, then such an explanation would mean that the Jewish race has the possibility of being destroyed since the Lord in fact declares that “this generation shall not pass away tillall these things be accomplished†(v.34).
How, then, should geneabe explained? We should try to find the clue from the Old Testament:

“Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah, thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever†(Ps. 12.7). This is a generation not in terms of a physical, but a moral, relationship.

“They are a perverse and crooked generation†(Deut. 32.5). The genea(Hebrew, dor) here is not 30 or 40 years or even a lifetime. As long as perversity and crookedness last, just so is the duration of that generation.

“For they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness†(Dent. 32.20). The generation continues as long as unfaithfulness persists.

“There is a generation that curse their father, and bless not their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet are not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, oh how lofty are their eyes! And their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men†(Prov. 30.11-14). Obviously, such a generation is not limited to a few decades or a lifetime; rather, it points to a period marked by certain immoral characteristics.

We may receive further light from the Gospel of Matthew itself:

“But whereunto shall I liken this generation. . .?†(11.16-19).

“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet . . . The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here†(12.39,41).

“The queen of the south shall rise in the judgment with this generation . . . Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation†(12.42,45 ).

“All these things shall come upon this generation†(23.36).

This evil generation will last just as long as evil and adultery remain. Hence the meaning of geneain 24.34 is a period of time characterized by evil, adultery, perverseness, and crookedness. Such a period has not yet passed away, and will pass away only after all these things are accomplished.

The 70 weeks were all fulfilled by the time 70AD rolled around, just as Daniel
prophesied:

Dan. 9.26 refers to 70 AD. Dan. 9.27 talks about something else,

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The people of the future Antichrist destroyed the city in 70 AD. Afterwards in the 70th seven he will make a covenant for 7 years then break it midTrib.

There was no mention of any 7 year peace deal in 70 AD.

Matt. 24.15 refers to the middle of the Tribulation in agreement with Dan. 9.27 and Matt. 24.15 refers back to Daniel.

70 AD was already handed in Matt. 24.2
“There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown downâ€â€”In 70 A.D. this was fulfilled literally. The Roman soldiers under General Titus broke into Jerusalem, burned the temple, and scraped off all the gold which overlaid the stones by turning them over after the gold had melted into crevices between the stones.

You can't support your star-gazing and date-setting Biblically, because the Bible doesn't support the premises upon which you've founded everything else.

The star gazing date setting was already supported in the opening post.

There is no premises, all flows from the evidence.

You're issue is not with me but God for He said to observe the signs in the cosmos to know when He returns, specifically a unique earthquake, a unique solar eclipse and unique red blood moon feast Tetrad in that specific order. Lots of verses for this which you ought not to deny.. And these occur right before the Tribulation all bunched up.

 

[OSASArminian]

This isn't about me, however it's been my experience that people who can't rationally support their own arguments often resort to making their detractors the subject of the discussion.

You came onto this forum and your first post was provocative to say the least:



It appears you only came looking to pick a fight with people who wouldn't see it your way. And when I took up your challenge to tell you what the Bible clearly says about these issues - you called my salvation and beliefs about completely unrelated doctrines into question.



Might I suggest that if you don't like your ideas challenged, you don't throw down the gauntlet the way you did and then try to smear your detractors when they take you seriously.

For what it's worth. 2

Bla bla. Deal with the evidence in the opening post.

 

[OSASArminian]

While I openly talk like there's one rapture in the church, actually I, as do you, believe there's several. There were some even in the OT foreshadowing this catching away. The reason why there's a timing conflict as to when the "rapture" will occur is because everyone is right, and everyone is wrong.... there's several, but the problem lies when everyone restricts their belief to "just one". That's where the contradictions arise.

I thnk our issue right now is not even getting into how many raptures there are for we know there is at least two.

The issue is that the first rapture is according to readiness as well proven here; so JR Church and Mark Biltz are wrong for they claim the whole Church is raptured before like the Left Behind.

Do you understand how they are wrong? Since the first rapture verse are conditional statement, and obviously not all Christians are prayerful, watchful and keep the word of His patience.

Again, it's all about partial rapture. I could not give you the dates I gave you without believing in partial rapture. One comes before the other.

 

[OSASArminian]

I have what I call the "false prophet" theorem.

It goes like this:

If there are n prophets, each with their own unique message, then we can be assured that at least n-1 prophets are false (since there is only one truth) and possibly ALL of them may be wrong.

It's the mathmatics in me (since the bible is an extremely mathematical book)

Let's try this. All views are wrong but partial rapture. Now partial rapture believers may different on some details like whether the martyrs of the past 20 centuries in the 5th seal are raptured before the Tribulation also at 7.9, but they are all right in that they understand first rapture is according to readiness (Luke 21.36).

So you can say pretrib onylism is partly true an posttrib onlyism is partly true, but they only work together if the the first rapture is according to readiness. While they fight with each other, partial rapture brings them together. I am tellin you right now with 100% certainty this is God's will.

So let us adjust our thinking accordingly and get into the meat of partial rapture,
The Partial Rapture Proof

 

[OSASArminian]

Stormcrow,

The Disciples’ Third Question ​

Concerning the third question (“What shall be the sign . . . of the end of the world?”), two different Greek words are translated in the New Testament as the “world”: (1) kosmos—the organized world, pertaining to the material part; and (2) aion—age, which points to time. When the Scriptures speak of that which is “of the world” (e.g., John 17.14), it means a being trapped by the things of the systematized world; when the Bible says “according to this age” (Rom. 12.2 mg.), it denotes a being caught by the current fashion of the time.

The Greek word used for the “world” here in verse 3 is aion. Therefore, what the disciples ask here is: “What shall be the sign ... of the end of the age?” Now “the end of the age” is a specific term. It may also be called “the end” or “the consummation”—which refers particularly to the three and a half years comprising the Great Tribulation. This end of the age is the conclusion of the dispensation of Grace towards the Gentiles and the church. It begins with the rapture to the throne and terminates with the appearing of Christ and His saints from the air to the earth. Time-wise, “the end” coincides with parousia; but location-wise, they are widely different, for parousia is concerned with the things above while “the end” is concerned with the things on earth.

Let us again see when is to be the fulfillment of the first part of Matthew 24-25 (i.e., 24.4-31). Generally, there are two different interpretations: (1) that it was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when Titus destroyed Jerusalem, since verse 2 has already been totally fulfilled; or (2) that it is yet to be fulfilled because the subject of Matthew 24 is the Great Tribulation. Among those who hold the first view is C. I. Scofield, and among those who advocate the second is J. N. Darby.

Seven arguments can be brought against the first view: (a) Though there were people who claimed to be Christ, yet none of them performed any wonder (24.24)—(b) “The abomination of desolation” (an idol is to be put in the temple) has not been fulfilled: the first school argues that this was fulfilled when the Roman flag was raised in the holy place—but when this happened, no Jew could flee anymore; yet 24.16 reads, “then let them that are in Judea flee unto the mountains”—(c) The Lord orders the Jews, upon witnessing the idol placed in the temple, to flee, that is to say, to flee in a hurry; but no such need to hasten was evident at the time in 70 A.D.—(d) The destruction of Jerusalem will affect the whole world, yet during the time of Titus such an aftermath did not happen—(e) In those days there was also no disturbance in celestial phenomena (24.29)—(f) The Lord will appear after the destruction, yet He did not appear after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.—(g) This part from 24.4-31 is parallel to what is found in Revelation 6 since Revelation 6 is the past 20 centuries according to partial rapture (Rev. 6.12 are those signs in 2011, 2013 and 2014/15 right before the Tribulation of 7 years begins). The book of Revelation was written in or about 96 A.D. and the historical event involving Titus occurred in 70 A.D. Had this first part been completely fulfilled at the time of Titus, why should this old event which happened some 26 years earlier be gone over again by John in his prophetic writing?

The destruction of the temple (besides that by the Babylonians which took place around 586 B.C.) is to occur two times more. “The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary,” prophesied Daniel (9.26). Time-wise, this second destruction will come with the last of the sevens after the passing of 62 sevens because after the 69th seven Jesus is cut off and there was no 7 year accord in 70 AD. And the term “the end” is used repeatedly in Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 to show that this will be the second destruction (the first of these two having been that of Titus in 70 A.D.).

By comparing other Scripture passages, such as in Revelation, we will be able to understand more clearly this second destruction of the holy temple: “The court which is outside the temple measure leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months” (11.2). Only 42 months then Israel reclaims its land again. Not so in 70 AD. The temple is not destroyed but in 70 AD it was.

By way of conclusion, then, we may say that in the first part of Matthew 24 and 25 (24.4-31), verses 4-6 of chapter 24 have already been fulfilled (before 70 AD), verses 7-14 have not been entirely fulfilled since they are still in the process of being so, and verses 15-31 are yet to be fulfilled.