Are You Able to Disprove this Evidence for When Jesus Said He Would Return?

[Stormcrow]

Bla bla. Deal with the evidence in the opening post.

I have dealt with it. You refuse to recognize or understand it and have hurled insults and provocations my way.

That says more about your "evidence" than anything else that can be said. 2

 

[Stormcrow]

And regarding Daniel 9:27 again:

{27} "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:27 (NASB)

Show me where the words "tribulation" or "great tribulation" appear in that verse without resorting to name-calling or questioning my faith, if you please.

If you can't, then you've got a real problem because it means you're READING THOSE WORDS INTO THE TEXT!

 

[Stormcrow]

I see how you are misreading Matt. 24.34. Matt. 24.34 is not referring to the destruction of the Temple but to when Israel becomes a nation again (v.32).

Ah, resorting to the "fig tree" parable? There is NOTHING metaphorical in Christ's use of the fig tree, because if there is, then - according to Luke - Israel would also be represented BY ALL TREES!

{29} Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; Luke 21:29 (NASB)

This parable is set in the context of Jerusalem's desolation just a few verses up!

But I understand how you would be confused by this when the fashion of the futurist is to lift totally disconnected verses out of context and create a "Frankenstein's Monster" of dogma out of them! 2

 

[Stormcrow]

I propose to you that I am right because nobody could prove otherwise.

How do you prove or disprove something that - in your own words - hasn't even happened yet?

A little early to be thumping your chest, isn't it???:

 

[Stormcrow]

RE: "This generation."

Neither calculation is applicable here, for had it been either case, all these things would have had to have been fulfilled in the lifetime of those living at the time of Matthew and thus all would have become past history.

Couple of problems with this: your view has to change the connotation of the word "generation" to avoid having these things happen in the past.

In other words, you're using your conclusion to interpret the word rather than using the word to draw a sound conclusion.

Bad exegesis.

Second, Christ was explicit in what He meant, not only using the words "this generation" in speaking of the people to whom He was sent, but to His disciples:

{27} "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. {28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 (NASB)

JESUS BEFORE CAIAPHAS

{64} Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

{22} And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. {23} "They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. {24} "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. {25} "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:22-25 (NASB)

(Luke 17:25 EXPLICITLY states whom Christ meant by "this generation!" The generation that rejected and crucified Him!)

The first few verses establish His promise to return.

Now, here is the important connection people need to make:

{30} "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. {31} "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. Luke 17:30-31 (NASB)

See verse 31? It looks exactly like verses 17 and 18 from Matthew 24:

{15} "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), {16} then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. {17} "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. {18} "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. Matthew 24:15-18 (NASB)

And what is the "ABOMINATON OF DESOLATION?"

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB)

His return was not meant for us living in 21st century America. Everything He said about His return points to one time and one place for one purpose:

To avenge the covenant (Leviticus 26) upon first century Jerusalem, thus fulfilling the "smallest letter and stroke" of the Law.

Finally, all of the NT writers who wrote on this subject believed in His return within their lifetime!

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

{15} "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; {16} but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: {17} 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; Acts 2:15-17 (NASB)

Clearly, Peter preached that they were living in "the last days!"

{12} The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Romans 13:12 (NASB)

{12} Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, {13} each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 1 Corinthians 3:12-13 (NASB)

{25} not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:25 (NASB)

{5} Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:5 (NASB)

{7} Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. {8} You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

(WHY WOULD JAMES TELL THEM TO BE PATIENT IF HE DIDN'T EXPECT THE LORD TO RETURN SOON???)

{7} The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

(WHY WOULD THE RISEN AND ASCENDED LORD TELL JOHN TO KEEP THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OPEN IF HIS RETURN WEREN'T IMMINENT???)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

(Reads a lot like Matthew 16:27, huh???)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Now why in the world would Christ say - and the apostles write - all these things if they weren't looking forward to His return during THEIR generation???

You can believe anything you want, but you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking it's Biblically sound.

 

[Stormcrow]

Note to mods...

Please make this post a sticky in the Preterism sub-forum, so I don't have to keep finding this stuff!

 

[OSASArminian]

I have dealt with it. You refuse to recognize or understand it and have hurled insults and provocations my way.

That says more about your "evidence" than anything else that can be said. 2

Nah. You just self-declared that.

 

[Stormcrow]

Nah. You just self-declared that.

You mean like this?

I propose to you that I am right because nobody could prove otherwise.

:biglol

 

[OSASArminian]

And regarding Daniel 9:27 again:

{27} "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:27 (NASB)

Show me where the words "tribulation" or "great tribulation" appear in that verse without resorting to name-calling or questioning my faith, if you please.

If you can't, then you've got a real problem because it means you're READING THOSE WORDS INTO THE TEXT!

You got to do a little thinking.

Again you are a petty legalist. I am sad to hear you reject the Triune God also since you can't find the word Trinity.

One unit of seven years is seven years x 360 days per year = 2,520 days. The 42 months is 42 x 30 or 1260 which is 1/2 of 2,520.

Surely you can't be that daft?

Matthew says this verse refers to Matt. 24.15 and Matt. 24.15 is after 70 AD. 70 AD was covered in Matt. 24.2,4-6 already.

The Temple hasn't been built but it will be in Matt. 24.15, the same Temple in Dan. 9.27 with the long gap between the destruction in 9.26 and 9.27.

 

[OSASArminian]

Ah, resorting to the "fig tree" parable? There is NOTHING metaphorical in Christ's use of the fig tree, because if there is, then - according to Luke - Israel would also be represented BY ALL TREES!

{29} Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; Luke 21:29 (NASB)

This parable is set in the context of Jerusalem's desolation just a few verses up!

But I understand how you would be confused by this when the fashion of the futurist is to lift totally disconnected verses out of context and create a "Frankenstein's Monster" of dogma out of them! 2

The fig tree is Israel. The trees always represent nations. Nationalism is rampant today like never before.

 

[OSASArminian]

How do you prove or disprove something that - in your own words - hasn't even happened yet?

A little early to be thumping your chest, isn't it???:

It doesn't have to happen yet to know. Jesus says we can know. He does not send us in blind.

The data points come to 83 trillion to 1 and you don't challenge any of those data points.

I like that.

 

[OSASArminian]

RE: "This generation."

Couple of problems with this: your view has to change the connotation of the word "generation" to avoid having these things happen in the past.

In other words, you're using your conclusion to interpret the word rather than using the word to draw a sound conclusion.

Bad exegesis.

Second, Christ was explicit in what He meant, not only using the words "this generation" in speaking of the people to whom He was sent, but to His disciples:

{27} "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. {28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 (NASB)

JESUS BEFORE CAIAPHAS

{64} Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

{22} And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. {23} "They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. {24} "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. {25} "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:22-25 (NASB)

(Luke 17:25 EXPLICITLY states whom Christ meant by "this generation!" The generation that rejected and crucified Him!)

The first few verses establish His promise to return.

Now, here is the important connection people need to make:

{30} "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. {31} "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. Luke 17:30-31 (NASB)

See verse 31? It looks exactly like verses 17 and 18 from Matthew 24:

{15} "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), {16} then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. {17} "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. {18} "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. Matthew 24:15-18 (NASB)

And what is the "ABOMINATON OF DESOLATION?"

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB)

His return was not meant for us living in 21st century America. Everything He said about His return points to one time and one place for one purpose:

To avenge the covenant (Leviticus 26) upon first century Jerusalem, thus fulfilling the "smallest letter and stroke" of the Law.

Finally, all of the NT writers who wrote on this subject believed in His return within their lifetime!

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

{15} "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; {16} but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: {17} 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; Acts 2:15-17 (NASB)

Clearly, Peter preached that they were living in "the last days!"

{12} The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Romans 13:12 (NASB)

{12} Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, {13} each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 1 Corinthians 3:12-13 (NASB)

{25} not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:25 (NASB)

{5} Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:5 (NASB)

{7} Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. {8} You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

(WHY WOULD JAMES TELL THEM TO BE PATIENT IF HE DIDN'T EXPECT THE LORD TO RETURN SOON???)

{7} The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

(WHY WOULD THE RISEN AND ASCENDED LORD TELL JOHN TO KEEP THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OPEN IF HIS RETURN WEREN'T IMMINENT???)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

(Reads a lot like Matthew 16:27, huh???)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Now why in the world would Christ say - and the apostles write - all these things if they weren't looking forward to His return during THEIR generation???

You can believe anything you want, but you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking it's Biblically sound.

Not at all. I am using the word generation as the evidence leads to. I am just going where the evidence takes me.

Jesus was saying as long as this evil generation continues. Sin is the problem.

John, Peter and James saw Jesus at the mount of transfiguration.

When Jesus says they will see Him coming on the clouds of heaven and they died, he is speaking of course to people alive at that time, obviously.

Generation is not used in only one sense. It can mean this actual generation or it can mean wicked generation. It can be used in a good and negative sense. I discussed all that already in my previous proof text on Matt. 24.34. Don't be a legalist.

Did Jesus return 70 AD? No. So you are wrong. So you have created a legalism to reject Christianity. Misreading the Bible is never a valid argument.

It's all about His second coming.

The last days is this age of grace. You are limiting yourself. What seems long is actually quite short in the grand scheme of things.

Jesus wants us all to live as though He could return at any moment whether it is in the 20th century or the 1st century. You can see He is treating us equally in this sense in His soon return.

 

[OSASArminian]

Note to mods...

Please make this post a sticky in the Preterism sub-forum, so I don't have to keep finding this stuff!

Remember what the Bible said about we will all know it when Jesus returns? Well why doesn't everyone know Jesus returned in 70 AD and where did He go? Is there is a 3rd coming? Jesus is to reign over the nations (Rev. 12.5). Why did He take off again? Why didn't anyone write about Him disappearing again? And what's the point of disappearing again? His second coming ushers in His kingdom.

 

[OSASArminian]

You mean like this?



:biglol

I'm still waiting for that disproof.

 

[OSASArminian]

You know what would be gem for you is if you could find a 7 year period around 70 AD. But of course that still fails because there is an end of transgressions (Dan. 9.24) when that is done. Not so in 70 AD.

 

[Stormcrow]

Show me where the words "tribulation" or "great tribulation" appear in that verse without resorting to name-calling or questioning my faith, if you please.

You got to do a little thinking.

Again you are a petty legalist. I am sad to hear you reject the Triune God also since you can't find the word Trinity.

So you epically fail on the two things I asked you to do: show me the words "tribulation" or "great tribulation" in Daniel 9:27, and to do so without name-calling or questioning my beliefs.

Your "thinking" is nothing more than reading into the text that which you want to see.

Now, you want to know why those words aren't in Daniel 9:27?

Because this verse is about Christ, not some "anti-Christ" and it's got NOTHING to do with tribulation.

But I won't bother boring you with those "petty" details. Besides, I had already given them to you in a link that you apparently didn't bother to read anyway.

Quite frankly, I find your methods for reaching your star-gazing, date-setting conclusions to be right up there with other occultic practices, like numerology and astrology.

But hey, to each his own, right?

 

[Stormcrow]

Once upon a time I saw a video of Mark Biltz explaining stuff about the Tetrads. At fist I didn't think much of it but about a year later, I decided to review it in earnest, and I don't know what caused me to see the light this time, but it was undeniable.

LOL@MARK BLITZ!

He took a single phrase from a single prophecy and built an entire eschatology around it, not even realizing that those passages relating to "blood moons" are metaphors for God's judgments!

All been covered here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/sun-shall-darkened-36504/

and here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/moon-into-blood-36126/

But please, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[OSASArminian]

So you epically fail on the two things I asked you to do: show me the words "tribulation" or "great tribulation" in Daniel 9:27, and to do so without name-calling or questioning my beliefs.

Your "thinking" is nothing more than reading into the text that which you want to see.

Now, you want to know why those words aren't in Daniel 9:27?

Because this verse is about Christ, not some "anti-Christ" and it's got NOTHING to do with tribulation.

But I won't bother boring you with those "petty" details. Besides, I had already given them to you in a link that you apparently didn't bother to read anyway.

Quite frankly, I find your methods for reaching your star-gazing, date-setting conclusions to be right up there with other occultic practices, like numerology and astrology.

But hey, to each his own, right?

Jesus doesn't make "desolate" (Dan. 9.27). Satan's Antichrist is a desolator. Not Jesus. This desolator's people, the people of the prince, destroyed the Temple in 70 AD (Dan. 9.26). Jesus didn't destroy the Temple. How obsurd.

"People of the prince" are Jesus' people? How obsurd. That would be like Christians going to destroy the Third Temple after it is constructed. Surely, you're mad. I know all the games preterists play with Dan. 9.24-27. They all fail.

Desolation is your Tribulation. Read the book of Revelation about it and Matt. 24.15-31.

Why is it that this one seven has not been fulfilled and that the children of Israel have not yet received the full blessing? Because "after the threescore and two weeks [the sixty-two sevens mentioned above] shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing." Christ has died, and consequently the children of Israel did not receive the blessing. It was because they would not receive Him with willing hearts but crucified Him instead, and therefore punishment came upon them. "The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (v.26). When the Jews insisted on killing the Lord Jesus, they openly declared: "His blood be on us, and on our children" (Matt. 27.25). Naturally God is treating them according to their own word by temporarily rejecting them and showing grace towards the Gentiles. But after the number of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, He will give grace once again to the children of Israel. And at that time, this last seven shall be fulfilled. As soon as the last seven is over, God will deliver the children of Israel according to promise (Dan. 9.24).

 

[OSASArminian]

LOL@MARK BLITZ!

He took a single phrase from a single prophecy and built an entire eschatology around it, not even realizing that those passages relating to "blood moons" are metaphors for God's judgments!

All been covered here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/sun-shall-darkened-36504/

and here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/moon-into-blood-36126/

But please, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I am not sure what Mark did. I can't remember. I only know what I am doing.

According to partial rapture Rev. 6.12 comes before the 7 year Tribulation. So 3 events in specific order are required: great earthquake, unique solar eclipse and unique red blood moon.

I found them. If Haiti 2010 or Japan 2011 earthquakes did not happen I would only have one year left for such an earthquake in 2012 to occur, because the 2nd item on the list is the H3 Solar eclipse (4th since Christ) in 2013.

Mark Biltz needs to come to speed with what I am doing. I don't know if he has done so. He probably hasn't since he still does not believe in partial rapture.

There are several verses we use. Try these on for size,

Christian Forums - Revelation 6.12 and Joel 2.31 are Before the First Rapture and Tribulation Start

 

[Stormcrow]

I don't think I can argue with THAT.

Love this quote from your sig:

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can lead you to commit atrocities."

Source? May I use it?