Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination ?

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Many scriptures teach it can happen, Rev.2:10 is but one.

Webb, the verse of which you speak, isn't talking about eternal life being the focus of "being faithful until death," but, receiving the, "crown of life, "that's an award that's to be given out, for being faithful to the end." Once a person is "born again Spiritually" they CANNOT lose it by, committing sin or anything else...

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Originally Posted by Webb
Before arguring about whether or not the child of God can be lost some might do well to study and learn whether they are in Christ or not in the 1st place

Excellent response...

Is there any way to objectively determine and verify whether someone is actually "in Christ?" Can one's "In-Christedness" be tested for authenticity and then judged openly as the genuine article or not? If one's status cannot be know and openly verified, why believe those making the claim are correct in their assessment as opposed to being self deluted?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

People give their own beliefs way too much credence and are often convinced that what they believe can actually effect reality. What reality has consistanly, continuously, and can be tested to reveal is that us human being types ALWAYS die. No matter when we were born, where we are from, or what we believe, our ultimate destiny is the same and it is inargueably death! Death is our final destination and unless we discover a way to prevent it or link our sentience to something inorganic, indestructable, adaptable, and self sustaining it always will be.
Bottom line, one's belief has no effect on one's "eternal" destination as we will all encounter the grave at some point.

You imply, there is no afterlife, is this true??

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Originally Posted by Webb
Before arguring about whether or not the child of God can be lost some might do well to study and learn whether they are in Christ or not in the 1st place




Is there any way to objectively determine and verify whether someone is actually "in Christ?" Can one's "In-Christedness" be tested for authenticity and then judged openly as the genuine article or not? If one's status cannot be know and openly verified, why believe those making the claim are correct in their assessment as opposed to being self deluted?

One cannot use their "intellect alone" to come to Christ. There's an "element of faith" involved with the process of being "born again Spiritually." This process goes, far beyond mere "intellect."

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

You imply, there is no afterlife, is this true??

I cannot say and have no way of knowing whether or not there is an afterlife as such a thing cannot be tested or verified by us. So my answer to whether or not there is or is not an afterlife wold be; I don't know.
My answer as it pertains to what I THINK as it relates to afterlife scenarios is that I believe no such scenarios exists and those that do believe in them have no way of objectively proving their stance and therefore can be both definitive and honest in affirming that their conviction that there is an afterlife is any truer than my belief that dogs actually can fly, but just choose not to do so when people can detect that activity.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

One cannot use their "intellect alone" to come to Christ. There's an "element of faith" involved with the process of being "born again Spiritually." This process goes, far beyond mere "intellect."

Specifically, how can one "come to Christ?" What SPECIFIC and repeatable steps are involved, and how do you know the steps you believe in are right verses the steps that others on this very forum believe are right?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Specifically, how can one "come to Christ?" What SPECIFIC and repeatable steps are involved, and how do you know the steps you believe in are right verses the steps that others on this very forum believe are right?

I'll give you a "readers digest" version of the process...First of all, one must here (from the Bible) the message of God's Grace (through a preacher, true believer, evangelist, or by just reading the Bible on your own) The Holy Spirit then uses that same message to "convict" one's heart and make them realize, their a sinner,in need of God's forgiveness and mercy...That self same mercy and forgiveness comes "via" the shed blood of Christ, God's Son on the cross...Jesus took upon Himself the "sins of the entire world" past, present, and future...Christ died, was buried and resurrected thereafter...Man's "responsibility" is to place his faith in Christ, and realize that he's a sinner and be willing to repent (stop from doing his old sins) with God's help... And trust Christ and Him alone for the forgiveness of his sins...And once this individual has placed his faith, the Spirit "cleanses" (sanctify's) the sinner and places him into the, "body of Christ" and he is considered a "child of God" His body (man or woman) is now the, "temple of the Holy Spirit," (because of the Spirit's indwelling of the believer.) And now, through the Spirit's influence, that man or woman can bring forth good works/fruit as the Holy Spirit continues the conform the believer into the "image of God's Son, Christ." It "behoove's the believer to continue reading and studying the Bible the remainder of his life...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

I cannot say and have no way of knowing whether or not there is an afterlife as such a thing cannot be tested or verified by us. So my answer to whether or not there is or is not an afterlife wold be; I don't know.
My answer as it pertains to what I THINK as it relates to afterlife scenarios is that I believe no such scenarios exists and those that do believe in them have no way of objectively proving their stance and therefore can be both definitive and honest in affirming that their conviction that there is an afterlife is any truer than my belief that dogs actually can fly, but just choose not to do so when people can detect that activity.

My advise is, that you should begin reading (THE New Testament books, Romans, Ephesians, Corinthians) And before you start reading, tell God you don't believe but your "interested" in believing (if you truly are) and ask Him to help you understand what your reading...That would be an honest approach before God...

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

People give their own beliefs way too much credence and are often convinced that what they believe can actually effect reality. What reality has consistanly, continuously, and can be tested to reveal is that us human being types ALWAYS die. No matter when we were born, where we are from, or what we believe, our ultimate destiny is the same and it is inargueably death! Death is our final destination and unless we discover a way to prevent it or link our sentience to something inorganic, indestructable, adaptable, and self sustaining it always will be.
Bottom line, one's belief has no effect on one's "eternal" destination as we will all encounter the grave at some point.

No one on these boards that I am aware of will say that we avoid the death of our flesh.

If you believe that death is it for you, the end of your line, why bother to post? No one will disagree that we die. You convinced and converted us to 'your fact?! Wow!

Use your time doing something that you understand and enjoy.

A very good friend of mine, now deceased, read the book Hawaii, several hundred pages, but when he picked up a Bible his eyes would gloss over after just a 1/4 page. He just couldn't read it, yet alone understand it.

Scripture is not everyones gig. But if you did happen to read it, you would hopefully come away with one takeaway, the only one that matters,

...that God in Christ Loves you.

so, enjoy!

s

 

[Webb]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

In post 162 Truth over Tradition wants to know: "IS THERE ANY WAY TO OBJECTIVELY DETERMINE AND VERYIFY WHETHER SOLME IS ACTUALLY IN CHRIST?"

I believe the answer is YES. Surely we agree if the answer is found in scripture that is an objective answer, and we can't get any more "objective" than scripture. Without going into a lengthy dissertation on each scripture we shall objectively proceed.

1. Belief or faith in Jesus that He is the Christ and therefore we accept Him as our prophet, priest and king and the totality of His gospe. Jesus said: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24.

2. Repentance of sin. Jesus said:"I tell you, Nay; but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish", Luke 13:3. Repentance is a change of mind which leads to a change of life. Jesus best defines repentance in Matt. 21:28-31.

3. The confession that Jesus is Who He says He is; Matt.10:32, 33.

4. Baptism (water) for the remission of sins, to be saved; Mark 16:15,16.

On and after Pentecose ( Acts ) Jesus' apostles and disciples taught the same thing. To my knowledge the scripture does not say faith, repetance or confession of the Christ places us "into" Christ. It does say this of baptism, Rom. 6:3-5 and Gal.3:27. Thus, "objectively" speaking we are "in" Christ wherein are "ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS.", Eph. 1:3.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

In post 162 Truth over Tradition wants to know: "IS THERE ANY WAY TO OBJECTIVELY DETERMINE AND VERYIFY WHETHER SOLME IS ACTUALLY IN CHRIST?"

I believe the answer is YES. Surely we agree if the answer is found in scripture that is an objective answer, and we can't get any more "objective" than scripture. Without going into a lengthy dissertation on each scripture we shall objectively proceed.

1. Belief or faith in Jesus that He is the Christ and therefore we accept Him as our prophet, priest and king and the totality of His gospe. Jesus said: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24.

2. Repentance of sin. Jesus said:"I tell you, Nay; but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish", Luke 13:3. Repentance is a change of mind which leads to a change of life. Jesus best defines repentance in Matt. 21:28-31.

3. The confession that Jesus is Who He says He is; Matt.10:32, 33.

4. Baptism (water) for the remission of sins, to be saved; Mark 16:15,16.

On and after Pentecose ( Acts ) Jesus' apostles and disciples taught the same thing. To my knowledge the scripture does not say faith, repetance or confession of the Christ places us "into" Christ. It does say this of baptism, Rom. 6:3-5 and Gal.3:27. Thus, "objectively" speaking we are "in" Christ wherein are "ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS.", Eph. 1:3.

Water Baptism was meant for the, "House of Israel" twas not meant for the gentiles...However, Gentiles can partake of water baptism to show on the outside what Christ has done on the inside...It's only a "symbolic ceremony" for the gentiles, only the blood of Christ is able to wash away the sins of the flesh...

 

[Webb]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Grubal----Absoluteliy NONE of your post 171 is found in, or even hinted in the scripture.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Water Baptism was meant for the, "House of Israel" twas not meant for the gentiles...However, Gentiles can partake of water baptism to show on the outside what Christ has done on the inside...It's only a "symbolic ceremony" for the gentiles, only the blood of Christ is able to wash away the sins of the flesh...

Done by baptism. See Romans 6...

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Done by baptism. See Romans 6...

Regards

Romans speaks not, of "water baptism" here, but references, "The baptism of the Holy Spirit, whereas, the Spirit cleanses (sanctify's) the sinner and places them into "The body of Christ."

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


"The sky is always up, it is never down" (Grosnick Marowbe)

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Romans speaks not, of "water baptism" here, but references, "The baptism of the Holy Spirit, whereas, the Spirit cleanses (sanctify's) the sinner and places them into "The body of Christ."

You are mistaken, since he is writing to Christians who WERE "water and spirit" baptized, since there is no other Christian baptism in Scriptures.

It is clear that when John the Baptist stated that the "One to come" would baptize with "water and the spirit", he was suggesting something MORE than mere water baptism that John administered. Jesus baptizes with 'water and the spirit'. The water is so that WE know what is going on invisibly. We don't rely on something that we have to "guess" on whether it happened or not. Our sins were forgiven!

You DO understand what the word "baptism" means? Through that visible act, Christ's Spirit works. When Peter suggested to the crowd in Jerusalem in Acts, was he telling them to be "baptized invisibly"? NO!!! By making a faith proclamation (as in Romans 10) and submitting to the ritual, Christ's work on the cross is united to us and sin is forgiven, just as Peter said.

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

You are mistaken, since he is writing to Christians who WERE "water and spirit" baptized, since there is no other Christian baptism in Scriptures.

It is clear that when John the Baptist stated that the "One to come" would baptize with "water and the spirit", he was suggesting something MORE than mere water baptism that John administered. Jesus baptizes with 'water and the spirit'. The water is so that WE know what is going on invisibly. We don't rely on something that we have to "guess" on whether it happened or not. Our sins were forgiven!

You DO understand what the word "baptism" means? Through that visible act, Christ's Spirit works. When Peter suggested to the crowd in Jerusalem in Acts, was he telling them to be "baptized invisibly"? NO!!! By making a faith proclamation (as in Romans 10) and submitting to the ritual, Christ's work on the cross is united to us and sin is forgiven, just as Peter said.

Regards

I fear to my "utmost" that you error, my dear friend and fellow poster...

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

I'll give you a "readers digest" version of the process...First of all, one must here (from the Bible) the message of God's Grace (through a preacher, true believer, evangelist, or by just reading the Bible on your own) The Holy Spirit then uses that same message to "convict" one's heart and make them realize, their a sinner,in need of God's forgiveness and mercy...That self same mercy and forgiveness comes "via" the shed blood of Christ, God's Son on the cross...Jesus took upon Himself the "sins of the entire world" past, present, and future...Christ died, was buried and resurrected thereafter...Man's "responsibility" is to place his faith in Christ, and realize that he's a sinner and be willing to repent (stop from doing his old sins) with God's help... And trust Christ and Him alone for the forgiveness of his sins...And once this individual has placed his faith, the Spirit "cleanses" (sanctify's) the sinner and places him into the, "body of Christ" and he is considered a "child of God" His body (man or woman) is now the, "temple of the Holy Spirit," (because of the Spirit's indwelling of the believer.) And now, through the Spirit's influence, that man or woman can bring forth good works/fruit as the Holy Spirit continues the conform the believer into the "image of God's Son, Christ." It "behoove's the believer to continue reading and studying the Bible the remainder of his life...

First I want to thank you for you reply. I appreciate you taking the time to address my questions.
Not to be rude, but I must ask. How is your above answer to my question anything more than your own biased and personal opinion? Webb, a few posts later gives a different answer that members of faiths like the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ believe to be the only correct answer, and though many is fundementalist and traditional protestant denominations share your sentiments, there are believers across the globe that would offer other answers and use the Bible to declare that yours are incorrect. Who's right, and how do you know that you are right? Notice I asked how do you KNOW, not why do you FEEL convicted that you are correct, big difference.

The fact that there is no concensus speaks to the difficulty involved in coming to a conclusion that is incontrivertable, objective, even scripturally consistant, and ultimately right. If we are honest and look at the scriptures without using the prism of our particular believes and religious preconceptions what we will find is that various and oftentimes opposing positions have equal merit and the Bible is very non-specific in addressing this seemingly vital detail, otherwise we could all come to the correct conclusion rather easily because it would be plainly stated in scripture for all to see and there would be no debates about things like:

1. The plan of salvation
2. OSAS (once saved, always saved)
3. Baptism
4. Whether one must believe Jesus is God

----
You mentioned the HS a lot in your reply, and as someone that was once totally convinced that God's Holy Spirit was dwelling in my heart I can honestly understand why you believe as you do. But I must ask you. How do you KNOW that the spirit indwells the Christian? We know that there are people of other faiths as well as people of no faith that exude love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, etc., yet they are not Christians and therefore do not have God's HS indwelling them. How is it that we can use the above charactoristics to determine if one has the spirit if in fact those qualities (the very fruit of the Spirit), are not limited to believers?
In addition, how does one receive the HS? Must one have an apostle lay hands on them as observed and mentioned in Acts? Must one first be baptised as Acts 2:38 seems to indicate? Does it just come upon you whether you have confessed Jesus or not the way it did with Cornelius? Or is the Spirit's outpouring totally sporadic and solely based on the whim of the Lord and thus there no way to know how or when the Spirit will come upon you and take you over whether you confess Jesus or not?
Finally, if someone declare that they have the Spirit, how can we be sure they are being honest with us as well as honest with themselves? Are there signs that will accompany them and varify their claims or is it based on feelings and a conviction that can neither be proven or disproven?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

If you believe that death is it for you, the end of your line, why bother to post? No one will disagree that we die. You convinced and converted us to 'your fact?! Wow!

Use your time doing something that you understand and enjoy.

Scripture is not everyones gig. But if you did happen to read it, you would hopefully come away with one takeaway, the only one that matters,

...that God in Christ Loves you.

First off, I enjoy and love reading and studying the scriptures and have been an avid studier and proponent of them for the better part of 3 decades. Initially what caused me to conclude that death is in fact it was the scriptures themselves that declare that man is wholly mortal and are totally reliant upon the gift of God through Jesus for life, age lasting (eternal). So according to the scriptures, especially the OT, it appears that when one dies they are totally and completely dead and not existing in any way, anywhere until God raises them up to life again.

GM

My advise is, that you should begin reading (THE New Testament books, Romans, Ephesians, Corinthians) And before you start reading, tell God you don't believe but your "interested" in believing (if you truly are) and ask Him to help you understand what your reading...That would be an honest approach before God...

So you want be to precondition myself so that I arrive at the answer I should seek? The problem is that I have read those books and the others many times, and it is those very writings that initially convinced me that no afterlife exists! Man's hope according to scripture from The Apocalyse of Moses, to 1 Samuel, to Daniel 12, to Job, to the gospels that show us that even in the time of Jesus the sisters of Lazareth whom Jesus raised had been taught and always believed that a resurrection from the dead was the hope of man.

---
The only reason anyone would believe that mankind somehow lives on in an afterlife beyond death apart from a resurrection is because other men and religious thinking have put that idea out there and for millennia have taught that it was true and correct. No evidence at all supports such a claim and all claims of an afterlife are based on the OPINIONS of men that do not stand on a fact-based foundation.

 

[Webb]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Hi ToverT

May I ask, are you a JW?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Hi ToverT

May I ask, are you a JW?

No sir. I am neither a JW, an SDA, or even a Bible believing Christian anymore , though for most of my time as a believer as was a member of the Church of Christ.

How about you? Reading what you post about the plan of salvation takes me back to my times teaching Bible classes and being a parishioner at various CoC congregations.