Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination ?

[glorydaz]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Once a man has been made alive with Christ (Eph 2:5 style) there is no turning back. Plenty of scripture to support this; consider Eph 1:11-14, for one.

There are people (like those in the parable of the sower who are like the stony places) who hear and receive the word, but are not actually born again. These people did not “loose†their salvation; they were never actually born again. Any other theology asserts that God is losing souls that He wants to save. Heresy!

Those of us who are born again will testify that the change in the believer is the proof of salvation to that believer. The most convincing facet of our new life is the abrupt change in our desires. Even when our works fall short, we have the assurance that our desires are not what they were when we were unregenerate. What else can account for this change but the grace of God?

This change of heart (Ezekiel 36:26) is the proof to the believer of their new standing with God.

Good on Grubal for citing 1 John 5:13!

For the record; we should not be at all surprised to find Roman theology telling us to doubt our salvation…

-HisSheep

Amen. Those who have been undergone an "operation of God" are in no doubt of their salvation.

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Colossians 2:11-13 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

 

[reba]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Play nice!

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

And plenty to support the other opinion on "Turning back"...

Just for starters:

2 Peter 2:20-21
Hebrews 10:26-27

Ephesians 1 doesn't say anything about guaranteed and an impossible lose of eternal salvation, but the predestined call of those of the Church.




The parable states that they had FAITH. And aren't we saved by faith? Thus, if they had faith, they were saved...



God desires all men to be saved.
All men aren't saved.

This is clarified by recognizing that God has a will that allows men to sin.
And return to the vomit of their former life...




It doesn't follow that THESE CURRENT DESIRES will remain top priorities in our life. The Spiritual walk ebbs and flows, it doesn't remain at a high all the time. People can lose their faith gradually and fall away into their former life. There are numerous examples of such people...



Careful now...

For the record, the Catholic Church is not telling you to doubt your salvation. Just not to be presumptive...

Regards

I've known a lot of strong believers in my life and many, if not all, have gone through some deep and dark valleys. That in no way suggests a person loses their salvation. There are hills and valleys we all go through. Look at David, a man after God's own heart. He got Bathsheba pregnant, tried to get Uriah drunk so he could blame it on him. When that failed, he had Uriah killed. His first son died because of the judgment of God, and he was old still having issues. David fell in a pit. But, does the Good Shepherd not reach down and pull him out?

Read the psalm he wrote concerning this time...

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him. Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

It isn't presumptuous to believe God and what He has promised us in His Word. We don't put our faith in ourselves. We put our faith in the Lord. I suppose it just depends on whether you put your faith in man's ability to keep himself, or in God's ability us.....and His Promises.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Am I confident? Yes indeed! II Tim.1:12; I Jn.5:13. But scriptures also abundantly teach I can lose it all by becoming unfaithful, Rev.2:10

If you want to pick out one verse, you might be able to read into it that a believer can lose it all by becoming unfaithful. It's better if you look a little deeper rather than toss out the Promises on such a basis.

First, it does not say IF thou are faithful. It says simply "Be thou faithful." We are saved by grace through faith, thus we are being faithful when we believe on Him. And, "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."



Rev. 2:10-11 - Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Second, it goes on to say...He that overcometh SHALL NOT BE HURT OF THE SECOND DEATH, which is spiritual death. The word OVERCOMETH tells the whole story. Jesus said, "I have overcome the world." Whosoever "is born of God overcometh the world.." He that believeth (faith) in Jesus Christ has overcome.

John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 John 5:4-5 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

According to Scripture, once you are "truly" Born again, you cannot lose your position in Christ...Remember, it's the work of the 'Holy Spirit" that places us into the "body of Christ" and that of itself should give us assurance...The Spirit does not "undue" His work, once a person has been "cleansed" (Sanctified) by the Spirit and placed in the "body of Christ" they are considered a, "child of God."

There are those who will argue with these facts and deny all the truth presented in the Bible, but those who "deny" are the ones "taking the broad road" and "if" they remain "unbelievers" will be judged and suffer "eternal punishment..."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Churches that teach, "one can lose their salvation, or teach their congregation, "not to be presumptive" are NOT preaching the truth of God's Grace, as put forth in the "word of God..." More than likely there will be "numerous" amounts of "church goers" standing before Christ at "judgement day" whose names are not written in the "Lamb's Book of Life,and thus, shall be cast into the "lake of fire..." Read the "tale end" of Revelation and find out the facts about this, "forthcoming judgement..." It's scary and should make you "delve deeper" into what you actually believe and trust in...We'll ALL be there...In conclusion, "is your name in the "books" or in the "book of life??"

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Paul was not speaking of his eternal salvation. We don't "work out" our eternal salvation...that is a gift of God when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Fear and trembling means with respect and reverance to God.

Paul is here speaking of the need for the believer to continue in the Word because he won't be there with them. Not every time you read the word "salvation" in the Bible is it talking about eternal salvation. In this case it speaks of a productive walk of obedience to God which brings forth fruit.

We do "work it out" in Christ. We are not passive puppets. WHY ELSE is Paul constantly exhorting Christians??? It's like a race - Paul constantly compares the spiritual walk in military terms or of a competition, a race that is not yet done. On the other hand, we absolutely require God's grace to move our will to do His Will, states the reference from Phil 2... I find this verse(s) best describe the synergy that exists between God and man - and upon THAT basis, we shall be judged - so yes, it is refering to eternal salvation. The "productive walk" is how God will judge us. Did we obey the will of God as He granted the grace to do His will? Only those who obey the Will of the Father shall enter the Kingdom, glorydaz...

So yes, obedience is necessary to attain eternal salvation. No obedience, no salvation to eternal life. I have amply pointed out Scriptures that state this.

If you take the verse in context, you will notice what comes next..."IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU...."

Exactly. God works in me and I work, as well... Don't forget the other half.

We can know Paul is not speaking of our "working" to obtain our own salvation since he makes it clear through all his teaching that is not the case. He isn't speaking of our being afraid of losing our salvation because God has not given us a spirit of fear. We see this same "fear and trembling", which means respect in the following verse.

First of all, Paul doesn't say we don't "work" to obtain our salvation. He states that work does not EARN salvation. We cannot obligate God. But you had better believe you must obey the Will of God. Salvation is conditional, is it not? Does it not depend upon utilizing the gifts God has given us? Faith, hope, love, repentance? These works are not our OWN, but we must indeed participate in using those gifts.

I am not stating that this verse means we are fearful of losing our salvation. Nor have I. I agree that "fear and trembling" is meant as you describe it... But BECAUSE we respect and fear God, we are not to be presumptive. God will provide all we need to attain eternal life, if we would only have it.

My point of "work out your salvation" is to mean that we don't "have it" yet. It is something promised, a promise that is conditional upon REMAINING faithful. I hope this is clear. For without persevering faith, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So continue to "work it out".

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

take note that luther didnt teach that form of salvation what little i have heard of his views.

there was book on this stuff called..

the rest of the gospel. man that stuff was naseating. i couldnt stand the mens group after that so i left it for a time.it fell apart but not from that.
the rest of the gospel basically taught that one is fully holy in the spiritual realm and that the natural has to get caught up. we just got to be real and just accept that. we look to the lord who does the work for us.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

I've known a lot of strong believers in my life and many, if not all, have gone through some deep and dark valleys. That in no way suggests a person loses their salvation. There are hills and valleys we all go through. Look at David, a man after God's own heart. He got Bathsheba pregnant, tried to get Uriah drunk so he could blame it on him. When that failed, he had Uriah killed. His first son died because of the judgment of God, and he was old still having issues. David fell in a pit. But, does the Good Shepherd not reach down and pull him out?

Only if that person asks to be pulled out.

yes, we go through the "dark night". No, that doesn't mean we are lost. BUT, the possibility exists that such will NOT come out of this testing in a positive manner. Thus, they return to the vomit of their past life. Note, RETURN TO.

So yes, it is possible to gradually fall away and be WORSE OFF than before salvation. That is what Peter says. Experience tells us this. The Bible tells us this. And to pretend they never were saved to begin with (which the Bible never makes such a statement) is simply stating that WE CANNOT know we are saved ourselves!!! The obvious solution is that they lost what they had attained - the forgiveness of sins (which is that salvation that we first gained).

It isn't presumptuous to believe God and what He has promised us in His Word.

Of course not. But God's Word states that eternal life is conditional. It is not an unconditional guarantee based upon a "one moment in time proclamation". It is presumptuous to "test" God when He states in Scriptures that we must OBEY His will. We must REMAIN faithful. Not faithful long time ago...

We don't put our faith in ourselves. We put our faith in the Lord.

Indeed. But WHO is being judged when we stand before the Christ? ALL that we have is from God. But if one is not faithful in life, is Jesus judged or we??? He has done all that is necesssary - now we must use those "talents" and manifest God's work in us.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

According to Scripture, once you are "truly" Born again, you cannot lose your position in Christ...

Where? Hebrews 10 says you can... So does 2 Peter 2...

And where does the bible state one is "truly" born again, as opposed to "not really" or "almost" or "pretend born again" or whatever??? How does one know that they are "TRULY" born again where they cannot fall away?

yea, it has happened...


Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Churches that teach, "one can lose their salvation, or teach their congregation, "not to be presumptive" are NOT preaching the truth of God's Grace, as put forth in the "word of God..."

People that teach you cannot fall away are telling us that you can compartmentalize religion and the relationship with God into a moment of your life and receive a "get out of hell free" card that you can play at the end of your life, meanwhile, returning to your "regular" life. "Sin all the more, for grace abounds" is their motto.

That is not the Gospel of dying to self, discipleship, and faith working in love. It is a false gospel that attempts to get men to feel good about themselves while they continue living an immoral life.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

If you want to pick out one verse, you might be able to read into it that a believer can lose it all by becoming unfaithful. It's better if you look a little deeper rather than toss out the Promises on such a basis.

First, it does not say IF thou are faithful. It says simply "Be thou faithful." We are saved by grace through faith, thus we are being faithful when we believe on Him. And, "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."



Rev. 2:10-11 - Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Second, it goes on to say...He that overcometh SHALL NOT BE HURT OF THE SECOND DEATH, which is spiritual death. The word OVERCOMETH tells the whole story. Jesus said, "I have overcome the world." Whosoever "is born of God overcometh the world.." He that believeth (faith) in Jesus Christ has overcome.

John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

1 John 5:4-5 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Notice all these "overcometh" words are in the PRESENT TENSE...

REMAIN faithful, my friend.

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

"Some who do not or will not see, are doomed to darkness...No matter the amount of written proof displayed, they "shan't" grasp the truth and have it therefore, pierce their hardened heart." (Grosnick Marowbe)

"The sky is always up, never down!!"

 

[Webb]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Before arguring about whether or not the child of God can be lost some might do well to study and learn whether they are in Christ or not in the 1st place

 

[tandemcpl]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Good afternoon all,

I’ve read this entire thread and I’m trying to wrap my head around this OSAS idea. I have a question.

What does it take for one to lose his or her salvation?

Thanks and have a blessed day.

Toby

 

[Webb]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Many scriptures teach it can happen, Rev.2:10 is but one.

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Good afternoon all,

I’ve read this entire thread and I’m trying to wrap my head around this OSAS idea. I have a question.

What does it take for one to lose his or her salvation?

Thanks and have a blessed day.

Toby

Uh, a single scriptural example that [eternal loss of salvation] happened or would happen to a believer would seem reasonable to some.

Christian history is rather well filled with fallen warriors of faith. Doesn't mean that God eternally kills His Own fallen soldiers:

Rev. 13:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



No believer is exempt from SIN, period. To say however that the sacrifice of God in Christ was INsufficient for forgiveness of sin BEFORE OR AFTER salvation will remain to me to be theologically problematic.


One does NOT and can NOT eliminate the work of God in Christ.


Some believe it is their own formulamatic 'incantations' that 'activate' God for forgiveness to 'make God effective.' And IF NOT, then the ENTIRETY of Gods Work in Jesus Christ is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS apart from 'them.'

Again, problematic.



I do not believe those things to be so. The effectiveness of God in Christ is completely sufficient for HIS OWN, period.


s

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Before arguring about whether or not the child of God can be lost some might do well to study and learn whether they are in Christ or not in the 1st place

Excellent response...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Good afternoon all,

I’ve read this entire thread and I’m trying to wrap my head around this OSAS idea. I have a question.

What does it take for one to lose his or her salvation?

Thanks and have a blessed day.

Toby

You can't lose, what you never had!! If you have, you''ll never lose!!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

People give their own beliefs way too much credence and are often convinced that what they believe can actually effect reality. What reality has consistanly, continuously, and can be tested to reveal is that us human being types ALWAYS die. No matter when we were born, where we are from, or what we believe, our ultimate destiny is the same and it is inargueably death! Death is our final destination and unless we discover a way to prevent it or link our sentience to something inorganic, indestructable, adaptable, and self sustaining it always will be.
Bottom line, one's belief has no effect on one's "eternal" destination as we will all encounter the grave at some point.