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BradtheImpaler
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Solo said:
How do we know verses like this pretain to those you call false teachers when they would use the same type scriptures in accusation of you and the teachers you esteem?
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How do we know verses like this pretain to those you call false teachers when they would use the same type scriptures in accusation of you and the teachers you esteem?
Ã
ÃÂoppleganger
Guest
1 Thess 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant (Not have you ignorant about what?), brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (because others have no hope)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again (an-is'-tay-mee), even so them also which sleep in Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. (So even those who are what? Sleep means already dead. Will come with him! Why cause if they are already Dead there already with the Lord, and will return with Him. It says right here!)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {Footnote: prevent: or, come before, or, anticipate, or, precede} (So those that are still alive at his coming, Won't and Can't, stop or prevent those who are asleep(dead) with Him, meaning they haven't changed into spirtual uncorrupted bodies YET!)
16 ( When he comes) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Why will the dead in Christ Rise 1st? Because being with God in Heaven they recieve there reward, before Christ returns defacto to earth)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (har-pad'-zo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (Then those who are alive shall meet the Lord like there predecessors, who haven't Died a physical death yet, which is why they can't proceed them! Which is why a bunch of Dead bodies wont be floating out of there grave! Who have already decayed! Which is why Paul says he knew of some who had been saved from a temporal death briefly in this Life and mentions them, as being raised with the Lord in his Day, also.) Yes, there were people raised from the grave even then! Do you think they were given spirtual bodies or physical ones?
Strong's
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anistemi an-is'-tay-mee - to cause to rise up, from laying down, from the dead, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward, to stand up, of those who leave a place to go elsewhere,of the dead, to rise up against someone or something.
harpazo har-pad'-zo - to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, to claim for one's self, to snatch out or away (of something - like Death?) doesn't Look Like Rapos to me?
Matthew Henry Commentary
------------------------
v. 13. They have fallen asleep in Christ, 1 Cor. xv. 18. Death does not annihilate them. It is but a sleep to them. It is their rest, and undisturbed rest. They have retired out of this troublesome world, to rest from all their labours and sorrows. Being still in union with him, they sleep in his arms and are under his special care and protection. Their souls are in his presence, and their dust is under his care and power; so that they are notlost, nor are they losers, but great gainers by death, and their removal out of this world is into a better.
They shall be raised up from the dead, and awakened out of their sleep, for God will bring them with him, v. 14. They then are with God, and are better where they are than when they were here; and when God comes he will bring them with him. The doctrine of the resurrection and the second coming of Christ is a great antidote against the fear of death and inordinate sorrow for the death of our Christian friends; and this doctrine we have a full assurance of, because we believe that Jesus died and rose again. Therefore those who have fallen asleep in him have not
perished nor are lost.
The dead in Christ shall rise first (v. 16), before those who are found alive at Christ's coming shall be changed; and so it appears that those who shall then be found alive shall not prevent those that are asleep, v. 15. The first care of the Redeemer in that day will be about his dead saints; he will raise them before the great change passes on those that shall be found alive: so that those who did not sleep in death will have no greater privilege or joy at that day than those who fell asleep in Jesus. (3.) Those that shall be found alive will then be changed.
This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever. And the apostle would have us comfort one another with these words, v. 18.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant (Not have you ignorant about what?), brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (because others have no hope)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again (an-is'-tay-mee), even so them also which sleep in Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. (So even those who are what? Sleep means already dead. Will come with him! Why cause if they are already Dead there already with the Lord, and will return with Him. It says right here!)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {Footnote: prevent: or, come before, or, anticipate, or, precede} (So those that are still alive at his coming, Won't and Can't, stop or prevent those who are asleep(dead) with Him, meaning they haven't changed into spirtual uncorrupted bodies YET!)
16 ( When he comes) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Why will the dead in Christ Rise 1st? Because being with God in Heaven they recieve there reward, before Christ returns defacto to earth)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (har-pad'-zo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (Then those who are alive shall meet the Lord like there predecessors, who haven't Died a physical death yet, which is why they can't proceed them! Which is why a bunch of Dead bodies wont be floating out of there grave! Who have already decayed! Which is why Paul says he knew of some who had been saved from a temporal death briefly in this Life and mentions them, as being raised with the Lord in his Day, also.) Yes, there were people raised from the grave even then! Do you think they were given spirtual bodies or physical ones?
Strong's
--------
anistemi an-is'-tay-mee - to cause to rise up, from laying down, from the dead, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward, to stand up, of those who leave a place to go elsewhere,of the dead, to rise up against someone or something.
harpazo har-pad'-zo - to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, to claim for one's self, to snatch out or away (of something - like Death?) doesn't Look Like Rapos to me?
Matthew Henry Commentary
------------------------
v. 13. They have fallen asleep in Christ, 1 Cor. xv. 18. Death does not annihilate them. It is but a sleep to them. It is their rest, and undisturbed rest. They have retired out of this troublesome world, to rest from all their labours and sorrows. Being still in union with him, they sleep in his arms and are under his special care and protection. Their souls are in his presence, and their dust is under his care and power; so that they are notlost, nor are they losers, but great gainers by death, and their removal out of this world is into a better.
They shall be raised up from the dead, and awakened out of their sleep, for God will bring them with him, v. 14. They then are with God, and are better where they are than when they were here; and when God comes he will bring them with him. The doctrine of the resurrection and the second coming of Christ is a great antidote against the fear of death and inordinate sorrow for the death of our Christian friends; and this doctrine we have a full assurance of, because we believe that Jesus died and rose again. Therefore those who have fallen asleep in him have not
perished nor are lost.
The dead in Christ shall rise first (v. 16), before those who are found alive at Christ's coming shall be changed; and so it appears that those who shall then be found alive shall not prevent those that are asleep, v. 15. The first care of the Redeemer in that day will be about his dead saints; he will raise them before the great change passes on those that shall be found alive: so that those who did not sleep in death will have no greater privilege or joy at that day than those who fell asleep in Jesus. (3.) Those that shall be found alive will then be changed.
This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever. And the apostle would have us comfort one another with these words, v. 18.
S
Solo
Guest
BradtheImpaler said:
You wouldn't know since you are not a believer, but those who have the Holy Spirit have spiritual things revealed to them by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16
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BradtheImpaler
Guest
How do I know that you and those who agree with you are the ones with the "mind of Christ"? Again, the ones you call false teachers would say that they have the mind of Christ and YOU don't. It seems to me you are all adrift in a sea of circular reasoning, each maintaining you are right based on your particular sectarian influence and interpretation, with no real evidence to prove your view is correct. How freeing an experience it will be if and when any of you come to realize that none of this matters. You might even actually become friends :o
Vic C.
Member
Very true... harpazo is the proper Greek for the phrase "caught up". I think maybe Atone was confusing the Greek for the Latin equivalent rapio. < This is how the Latin Vulgate interprets harpazo.
Either way, it takes nothing away form the point Atonement was making. The closest word we have for the Greek in English is caught up or caught away. The closest word for the Latin is rapture.
16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (Young's Literal Translation)
Atonement
Member
LOL Thanks Vic for clearing this up.. I went to the gym for three hours last night.. I was tired.. Anyway yes I was confusing the two Greek/Latin and heck I even spelled it wrong. Slaps self in head. See what happens when all you do is Bible Study you start to confuse the language hehe. But the point is still very clear..
ÃÂoppleganger and I want to apologize to you because I was very tired and after re-reading what I wrote last night I hang my head in sorrow..
ÃÂoppleganger and I want to apologize to you because I was very tired and after re-reading what I wrote last night I hang my head in sorrow..
S
Solo
Guest
It is only circular reasoning if there is not an absolute truth that reigns supreme in the sphere of reality. Those that do not have the absolute truth have only a hit or miss chance of guessing which is truth between one truth and a myriad of lies. Without the Holy Spirit, we have no comfort.BradtheImpaler said:
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Imagican
Guest
Solo said:
S
Solo
Guest
This is the status that BradtheImpaler reveals about himself. Note his "Not a Christian" title under his name. The Word of God says the rest. Hopefully you will believe one day so that the Holy Spirit can guide and teach you.Imagican said:
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Imagican
Guest
Such bravado Solo. If nothing else, I must admire your persistence and confidence.
I just hope that when the 'truth' is revealed to ALL of us that we are not forced to SHRIEK OUT in horror as our hearts are revealed to, not only ourselves, but to The Father and Son themselves.. That we are ALL able to 'face' the 'truth' and accept our previous confidence in confusion.
I will 'warn you' no more. I have offered that and you still insist that YOU are able and competent to 'judge' those around you. I 'hope', for your sake, that you judge RIGHTEOUSLY.
And Solo, I DO believe, just NOT as you do. And I am a witness to that belief which has been instilled in me from God THROUGH The Spirit offered by His Son.
I do not debate these issues with the intent to accuse others of their faith or 'lack of it'. I have simply made an effort to offer that which has been given me. That IS what I have to offer those that 'may not' have it. And it IS a relationship with the Father through His Son. That's all I know and the rest is achedemic. Thought of MOSTLY through the minds of men and really of no consequence to 'the truth' or 'the love' that has been commanded of us.
We are to accept the Son of God as the Ultimate Sacrifice and for those that so wish, become closer to the Father through it. And an UNDERSTANDING of WHY is crucial to an understanding of WHAT we are to 'become'. Not through OUR WILL but by His and ONLY is this possible by opening up one's heart to The Spirit. 'Self' MUST take a 'back seat' so that The Spirit is ALLOWED to DRIVE.
All I have made an attempt to do is point out that 'man-made' doctrine is NOT THE WAY. That is the MAIN reason that Christ had to die to start with. Man choosing to follow HIS OWN PATH rather than that laid out by God.
MEC
I just hope that when the 'truth' is revealed to ALL of us that we are not forced to SHRIEK OUT in horror as our hearts are revealed to, not only ourselves, but to The Father and Son themselves.. That we are ALL able to 'face' the 'truth' and accept our previous confidence in confusion.
I will 'warn you' no more. I have offered that and you still insist that YOU are able and competent to 'judge' those around you. I 'hope', for your sake, that you judge RIGHTEOUSLY.
And Solo, I DO believe, just NOT as you do. And I am a witness to that belief which has been instilled in me from God THROUGH The Spirit offered by His Son.
I do not debate these issues with the intent to accuse others of their faith or 'lack of it'. I have simply made an effort to offer that which has been given me. That IS what I have to offer those that 'may not' have it. And it IS a relationship with the Father through His Son. That's all I know and the rest is achedemic. Thought of MOSTLY through the minds of men and really of no consequence to 'the truth' or 'the love' that has been commanded of us.
We are to accept the Son of God as the Ultimate Sacrifice and for those that so wish, become closer to the Father through it. And an UNDERSTANDING of WHY is crucial to an understanding of WHAT we are to 'become'. Not through OUR WILL but by His and ONLY is this possible by opening up one's heart to The Spirit. 'Self' MUST take a 'back seat' so that The Spirit is ALLOWED to DRIVE.
All I have made an attempt to do is point out that 'man-made' doctrine is NOT THE WAY. That is the MAIN reason that Christ had to die to start with. Man choosing to follow HIS OWN PATH rather than that laid out by God.
MEC
Isn't it amazing how quickly man is in his condemnation of those whose doctrine is different to their own. And not being content with that, it seems they are quick to add to what they believe is being said in order to heap upon them even greater judgement.
Scripture tells us that we (each of us) before our our own master stand or fall. So, as God's servant, each one proclaims the truth that he believes God has revealed to him. So, if one preaches 'another' gospel (apart from the righteousness that is by faith) then those to whom God has given discernment will know it. And they will know and understand the reason for the deception - that being a foundation not based on the righteousness of Christ. BUT if the point of contention is a matter of doctrine which does not impinge on our righteousness in Christ, why do we condemn?
Let God judge. Let God reveal truth. And if a man preaches a lie, it will be exposed. There are many people born of the Spirit of God who attend 'christian' churches that promote what others consider spurious doctrines. Remember, these are wheat growing with the tares and if you rip up the tares the wheat could also be lost.
Scripture tells us that we (each of us) before our our own master stand or fall. So, as God's servant, each one proclaims the truth that he believes God has revealed to him. So, if one preaches 'another' gospel (apart from the righteousness that is by faith) then those to whom God has given discernment will know it. And they will know and understand the reason for the deception - that being a foundation not based on the righteousness of Christ. BUT if the point of contention is a matter of doctrine which does not impinge on our righteousness in Christ, why do we condemn?
Let God judge. Let God reveal truth. And if a man preaches a lie, it will be exposed. There are many people born of the Spirit of God who attend 'christian' churches that promote what others consider spurious doctrines. Remember, these are wheat growing with the tares and if you rip up the tares the wheat could also be lost.
jgredline
Member
Scripture also tells us from Gen to Rev that Jesus is GOD.
in fact there is no way the Bible can make any sort of sense with out believeing that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God.
As far as Judging. This word gets thrown around alot.
What does it mean to Judge?
Matthew 7:1-6 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Ok, so what does all this mean? Lets take a look
Matthew 7:1-6
7:1 Sometimes these words of our Lord are misconstrued by people to prohibit all forms of judgment. No matter what happens, they piously say, “Judge not, that you be not judged. But Jesus is not teaching that we are to be undiscerning Christians. He never intended that we abandon our critical faculty or discernment. The NT has many illustrations of legitimate judgment of the condition, conduct, or teaching of others. In addition, there are several areas in which the Christian is commanded to make a decision, to discriminate between good and bad or between good and best. Some of these include:
1. When disputes arise between believers, they should be settled in the church before members who can decide the matter (1 Cor. 6:18).
2. The local church is to judge serious sins of its members and take appropriate action (Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13).
3. Believers are to judge the doctrinal teaching of teachers and preachers by the Word of God (Matt. 7:15-20; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Jn. 4:1).
4. Christians have to discern if others are believers in order to obey Pauls command in 2 Corinthians 6:14.
5. Those in the church must judge which men have the qualifications necessary for elders and deacons (1 Tim. 3:1-13).
6. We have to discern which people are unruly, faint hearted, weak, etc., and treat them according to the instructions in the Bible (e.g., 1 Thess. 5:14).
7:2 Jesus warned that unrighteous judgment would be repaid in kind: “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged. This principle of reaping what we sow is built into all human life and affairs. Mark applies the principle to our appropriation of the Word (4:24) and Luke applies it to our liberality in giving (6:38).
7:35 Jesus exposed our tendency to see a small fault in someone else while ignoring the same fault in ourselves. He purposely exaggerated the situation (using a figure of speech known as hyperbole) to drive home the point. Someone with a plank in his eye often finds fault with the speck in the eye of another, not even noticing his own condition. It is hypocritical to suppose that we could help someone with a fault when we ourselves have a greater fault. We must remedy our own faults before criticizing them in others.
7:6 Verse 6 proves that Jesus did not intend to forbid every kind of judgment. He warned His disciples not to give holy things to dogs or to cast ... pearls before swine . Under the Mosaic Law dogs and swine were unclean animals and here the terms are used to depict wicked people. When we meet vicious people who treat divine truths with utter contempt and respond to our preaching of the claims of Christ with abuse and violence, we are not obligated to continue to share the gospel with them. To press the matter only brings increased condemnation to the offenders.
So to summarize;
What was Jesus calling for when He ordered His followers to “judge not? Did He want us to close our eyes to error and evil? Did He intend that managers forgo critical performance reviews of their employees? Or that news editors and art critics pull their punches? Or that juries refrain from judgment? Should we decline any assessment of others, since none of us is perfect?
No, those would all be mis applications of Jesus teaching. In the first place, He was not commanding blind acceptance, but grace toward others. Since all of us are sinners, we need to stop bothering with the failings of others and start attending to serious issues of our own. His words here extend His earlier expose of hypocrisy. Don't blame or put down others while excusing or exalting yourself, Jesus was saying.
Is there room, then, to assess others, especially when we know we are not perfect? Yes, but only in Jesus way: with empathy and fairness, and with a readiness to freely and fully forgive. When we are called upon to correct others, we should act like a good doctor whose purpose is to bring healing not like an enemy who attacks.
Needless to say, it requires spiritual perception to discern these people. Perhaps that is why the next verses take up the subject of prayer, by which we can ask for wisdom. I should also point out, that it is my belief that Jesus here is speaking to his church..
For the non believer, there will be the great white throne judgment seat.
This is set aside for those who deny Jesus his deity.
in fact there is no way the Bible can make any sort of sense with out believeing that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God.
As far as Judging. This word gets thrown around alot.
What does it mean to Judge?
Matthew 7:1-6 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Ok, so what does all this mean? Lets take a look
Matthew 7:1-6
7:1 Sometimes these words of our Lord are misconstrued by people to prohibit all forms of judgment. No matter what happens, they piously say, “Judge not, that you be not judged. But Jesus is not teaching that we are to be undiscerning Christians. He never intended that we abandon our critical faculty or discernment. The NT has many illustrations of legitimate judgment of the condition, conduct, or teaching of others. In addition, there are several areas in which the Christian is commanded to make a decision, to discriminate between good and bad or between good and best. Some of these include:
1. When disputes arise between believers, they should be settled in the church before members who can decide the matter (1 Cor. 6:18).
2. The local church is to judge serious sins of its members and take appropriate action (Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13).
3. Believers are to judge the doctrinal teaching of teachers and preachers by the Word of God (Matt. 7:15-20; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Jn. 4:1).
4. Christians have to discern if others are believers in order to obey Pauls command in 2 Corinthians 6:14.
5. Those in the church must judge which men have the qualifications necessary for elders and deacons (1 Tim. 3:1-13).
6. We have to discern which people are unruly, faint hearted, weak, etc., and treat them according to the instructions in the Bible (e.g., 1 Thess. 5:14).
7:2 Jesus warned that unrighteous judgment would be repaid in kind: “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged. This principle of reaping what we sow is built into all human life and affairs. Mark applies the principle to our appropriation of the Word (4:24) and Luke applies it to our liberality in giving (6:38).
7:35 Jesus exposed our tendency to see a small fault in someone else while ignoring the same fault in ourselves. He purposely exaggerated the situation (using a figure of speech known as hyperbole) to drive home the point. Someone with a plank in his eye often finds fault with the speck in the eye of another, not even noticing his own condition. It is hypocritical to suppose that we could help someone with a fault when we ourselves have a greater fault. We must remedy our own faults before criticizing them in others.
7:6 Verse 6 proves that Jesus did not intend to forbid every kind of judgment. He warned His disciples not to give holy things to dogs or to cast ... pearls before swine . Under the Mosaic Law dogs and swine were unclean animals and here the terms are used to depict wicked people. When we meet vicious people who treat divine truths with utter contempt and respond to our preaching of the claims of Christ with abuse and violence, we are not obligated to continue to share the gospel with them. To press the matter only brings increased condemnation to the offenders.
So to summarize;
What was Jesus calling for when He ordered His followers to “judge not? Did He want us to close our eyes to error and evil? Did He intend that managers forgo critical performance reviews of their employees? Or that news editors and art critics pull their punches? Or that juries refrain from judgment? Should we decline any assessment of others, since none of us is perfect?
No, those would all be mis applications of Jesus teaching. In the first place, He was not commanding blind acceptance, but grace toward others. Since all of us are sinners, we need to stop bothering with the failings of others and start attending to serious issues of our own. His words here extend His earlier expose of hypocrisy. Don't blame or put down others while excusing or exalting yourself, Jesus was saying.
Is there room, then, to assess others, especially when we know we are not perfect? Yes, but only in Jesus way: with empathy and fairness, and with a readiness to freely and fully forgive. When we are called upon to correct others, we should act like a good doctor whose purpose is to bring healing not like an enemy who attacks.
Needless to say, it requires spiritual perception to discern these people. Perhaps that is why the next verses take up the subject of prayer, by which we can ask for wisdom. I should also point out, that it is my belief that Jesus here is speaking to his church..
For the non believer, there will be the great white throne judgment seat.
This is set aside for those who deny Jesus his deity.
Lewis
Member
This man teaches good sound Bible' that stuff does not even sound like him. This man will not even take money from the national TV audience. Everytime I turn around somebody is being called a false teacher. There are many many out there' but not everybody is. ans Arnold Murray is not a false teacher.
S
Solo
Guest
Sorry Lewis,
Arnold Murray's Shepherd's Chapel is 21 miles from where I was born again, and he is a false teacher. His teachings are unscriptural. He is almost a Herbert Armstrong reincarnation. :o
Arnold Murray's Shepherd's Chapel is 21 miles from where I was born again, and he is a false teacher. His teachings are unscriptural. He is almost a Herbert Armstrong reincarnation. :o
O
Oscar3
Guest
The Trinity or Godhead
This is clearly modalsim. All modalism teaches that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not God but manifestations.
That makes this man a false teacher and his deciples a cult.
http://www.shepherdschapel.com/answers.htm
This is clearly modalsim. All modalism teaches that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not God but manifestations.
That makes this man a false teacher and his deciples a cult.
jgredline
Member
mutzrein said:
Mutz
I am glad you asked. Ever heard of a theophany?
Lets start
When He appeared to Hagar, she recognized that she was in the presence of God; she referred to Him as “the-God-Who-Sees“ (Gen. 16:13).
While Hagar was in the desert at Shur, on the way to Egypt, the Angel of the Lord came to her. This was the Lord Jesus in one of His preincarnate appearances, known as a Christophany. He counseled her to return and submit to Sarai, and promised that her son would become head of a great nation. That promise, of course, is fulfilled in the Arab people. The words Return ... and submit have marked great turning points in the lives of many who have had dealings with God. Hagars exclamation in verse 13 might be paraphrased, You are a God who may be seen, for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me? She named the well Beer Lahai Roi (literally, well of the One who lives and sees me).
Speaking to Abraham on Mount Moriah, the Angel identified Himself as “the Lord †(?Heb.? YHWH , or Jehovah ; Gen. 22:13-19).
To offer Isaac was surely the supreme test of Abrahams faith. God had promised to give Abraham a numberless posterity through his son. Isaac could have been as much as twenty-five at this time, and he was unmarried. If Abraham slew him, how could the promise be fulfilled? According to Hebrews 11:19, Abraham believed that even if he slew his son, God would raise him from the dead. This faith was remarkable because there was no recorded case of resurrection up to this time in the worlds history. When Isaac asked, Where is the lamb?, his father replied, God will provide for Himself the lamb. This promise was not ultimately fulfilled by the ram of verse 13 but by the Lamb of God (John 1:29).
There are two outstanding symbols of Christ in this chapter. Isaac is the first: an only son, loved by his father, willing to do his fathers will, received back from the dead in a figure. The ram is the second: an innocent victim died as a substitute for another, its blood was shed, and it was a burnt offering wholly consumed for God. Someone has said that, in providing the ram as a substitute for Isaac, God spared Abrahams heart a pang He would not spare His own. The Angel of the Lord in verses 11 and 15, as in all the Old Testament, is the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham named the place The-Lord-Will-Provide (Jehovah-jireh) (v. 14). This is one of the seven compound names for God in the OT . The others are:
Jehovah-RophekhaThe Lord who heals you(Ex. 15:26).
Jehovah-NissiThe Lord my banner(Ex. 17:8-15).
Jehovah-ShalomThe Lord our peace(Judg. 6:24).
Jehovah-RoiThe Lord my Shepherd(Ps. 23:1).
Jehovah-TsidkenuThe Lord our righteousness(Jer. 23:6).
Jehovah-ShammahThe Lord is present(Ezek. 48:35).
The Lord swore by Himself because He couldnt swear by anyone greater (Heb. 6:13). Gods promise here, confirmed by His oath, includes the blessing of the Gentile nations through Christ (see Gal. 3:16). In verse 17c God adds to the already vast blessing promised: Abrahams seed would possess the gate of his enemies. This means that his descendants would occupy the place of authority over those who would oppose them. The capture of the city gate meant the fall of the city itself
Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13).
The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Enough said on this verse.
When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16).
And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Who else could this Angel be other than the Lord Jesus Christ), bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow bb grow: Heb. as fishes do increase into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
At the burning bush, it was the “Angel of the Lord †who appeared (Ex. 3:2), but Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God†(Ex. 3:6).
The Lord appeared to him in a bush that burned with fire but ... was not consumed. The bush suggests the glory of God, before which he was told to stand with unshod feet. It might also foreshadow Jehovahs dwelling in the midst of His people without their being consumed. The word holy occurs here for the first time in the Bible. By removing his sandals, Moses acknowledged that the place was holy.God reassures Moses that He is the God of his forefathers Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. So the Angel of the Lord was the Pre-incarnite Jesus Christ.
The Lord who went before Israel in a pillar of cloud (Ex. 13:21) was none other than the Angel of God†(Ex. 14:19).
Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.
Exodus 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
Clearly the LORD and the Angel of God are both in the same.
Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23).
Sensing that he was talking to the Lord, Gideon asked for a sign. Then he prepared an offering of a young goat and of unleavened bread. When the Angel ... touched the offering with his staff and it was consumed by fire, Gideon knew he was in the Lords presence and feared he would die. But the Lord assured him with the words Peace be with you, and Gideon there upon built an altar and named the place Jehovah-Shalom (The-Lord-Is-Peace). Now I ask. Would an Angel who is not God allow himself to be sacraficed to? The Answer is NO. The Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus Christ.
Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face."
Then the Lord said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."
I don't see how I can explian it more clearly than the scriptures.
The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:15-20), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6).
Judges 13:15-20 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Again we see here the Pre-Incarnite Jesus Christ..
When Jacob struggled with the Angel, he struggled with God (Hos. 12:3, 4).
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, And in his strength he struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; He wept, and sought favor from Him. He found Him in Bethel, And there He spoke to us--
These are convincing proofs that when the Angel of the Lord is referred to in the OT, the reference is to deity.
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great answer :D
great answer :D