'art': Can it be inspired by Satan?

[Veritas]

Veritas,

(just when I was prepared to 'give up'..........he he he, no such 'luck' folks).

I THANK you for your HONESTY.

You have offered INSIGHT into the EXACT point of this thread. While MOST others have simply chosen DENIAL, you have offered ADMITTANCE that EVEN the 'art' that YOU produce with the INTENTION of 'righteousness' CAN be a 'temptation' to others. Trust me, my friend, I am OFFERING NO CONDEMNATION here. Simply an ATTEMPT at 'understanding'.

And it appears that 'even this Russian 'artist' PERCIEVED the BATTLE between 'good' and 'evil'. And not only was this 'quote' FILLED with 'wisdom' and INSIGHT, it offers that the BATTLEGROUND IS the 'heart of man'.

That offers a dilema of sorts. IF the 'battlefield', (wow, I wish I were THAT 'articulate. But is THAT in itself; coveting? I wonder..........but lest I disgress....), IS 'our VERY hearts', (and I DO realize that this is JUST; words offered by A MAN), HOW can we POSSIBLY aid the 'good fight'. How can WE 'lend support' to God's will and DENY it to the 'enemy'?

Maybe start by asking for God's help continually....

and yeah, I wish I were that articulate too.

And Veritas, (I ONLY choose YOU to 'pick on' cause to pick on anyone else would be to PICK ON EVERYONE ELSE!!!! he he he. just joking and I ask this of YOU for you SEEM willing to be truthful with yourself and others in this matter), IF you ARE your 'brothers keeper', how can YOU insure that 'your art' DOESN'T offer 'temptation' to your brother or sister? I am NOT attacking 'that which you do, I am simply asking 'what if'? And I BELIEVE that you are 'the person to ask' in this situation.

I stick to landscapes and cityscapes. :D I do portraits every so often but that is only for who asked for it. I don't think I'd paint a nude again unless I become married. And at that point I think I'd keep those things private.

Honestly, (and I have BEEN an artist myself. A rather accomplished one if you'll allow me to 'honor the flesh'), how are those that 'create art' assured that their inspiration if NOT 'other than' The Spirit? And this would MEAN that the 'art' created COULD NOT cause our brothers or sisters to 'stumble'. Is there 'such an art form'?

Wow, that's a good question. I'm going to say no, we can twist everything (although someone would have to be REALLY twisted to view landscapes sinfully). What do you think?

Once again, let me thank you for your honesty. I believe that it SHOULD carry a 'bit more weight' coming from one that IS 'an artist' than simply discussing from a 'laymans' perspective. Not that either YOU or I will TOTALLY 'agree' upon EITHER'S answers, but I am CERTAINLY willing to listen and believe that you will be able to 'shed a little light' on this subject.

No problem. Hey, what kind of art do you do?

Oh... I have to post another quote too. This is by another Russian author, Alexander Solzhenitsyn:

“It is the artist who realizes that there is a supreme force above him and works gladly away as a small apprentice under God's heaven.â€Â

 

[handy]

You have offered INSIGHT into the EXACT point of this thread. While MOST others have simply chosen DENIAL, you have offered ADMITTANCE that EVEN the 'art' that YOU produce with the INTENTION of 'righteousness' CAN be a 'temptation' to others. Trust me, my friend, I am OFFERING NO CONDEMNATION here. Simply an ATTEMPT at 'understanding'.

And it appears that 'even this Russian 'artist' PERCIEVED the BATTLE between 'good' and 'evil'. And not only was this 'quote' FILLED with 'wisdom' and INSIGHT, it offers that the BATTLEGROUND IS the 'heart of man'.

That offers a dilema of sorts. IF the 'battlefield', (wow, I wish I were THAT 'articulate. But is THAT in itself; coveting? I wonder..........but lest I disgress....), IS 'our VERY hearts', (and I DO realize that this is JUST; words offered by A MAN), HOW can we POSSIBLY aid the 'good fight'. How can WE 'lend support' to God's will and DENY it to the 'enemy'?

And Veritas, (I ONLY choose YOU to 'pick on' cause to pick on anyone else would be to PICK ON EVERYONE ELSE!!!! he he he. just joking and I ask this of YOU for you SEEM willing to be truthful with yourself and others in this matter), IF you ARE your 'brothers keeper', how can YOU insure that 'your art' DOESN'T offer 'temptation' to your brother or sister? I am NOT attacking 'that which you do, I am simply asking 'what if'? And I BELIEVE that you are 'the person to ask' in this situation.

OK, folks, pull up a chair and get ready for a lesson in Phariseeism 101.

Who were the Pharisees? They were a group of very devout, very zealous people who were reacting to the sinful time in which they lived. They saw Israel becoming more and more conformed to the world, especially to Greek philosophy and they became more and more strict in thier adherence to the Law of God. Because they saw temptation in everything around them, especially the temptation to leave the Law of God and conform to more Hellenistic ways of life, they came up with a set of traditions that are now known as "Hedging the Law". By hedging the Law, they figured that they could protect anyone from even the temptation to break one of God's commandments.

This is the way that "Hedging the Law" worked:

The Law prohibited cooking the meat of a lamb or kid in it's mother's milk. A 'hedge' around this law gave rise to the idea of a "Kosher" kitchen, where one actually has to have two sets of cooking utensils, one for dairy products, one for meat, so that one wouldn't inadvertantly break the law by having a stray drop of milk get mixed in with the meat. This "law" is still hedged today in that many Orthodox Jews won't eat a cheeseburger.

Another example of a 'hedge' around the law was in Sabbath travel. There was a prohibition in the Law against traveling on the Sabbath. However, folks needed to go to the synagogues on the Sabbath. So the question arose, how far is too far? When does ordinary walking about become classified as 'travel'? The Pharisees jumped in to prevent others from falling into the temptation of Sabbath travel by erecting a series of markers and posts that would show everybody how far they could walk. As long as one stayed within the marks, one needed not worry about 'traveling' on the Sabbath.

There are two things inherently wrong with hedging the Law. (Maybe there are more, but I'm just going to address these two.)

First: The very act of hedging the Law is to basically say to God, "You didn't get it right, we need to add to this in order to make it work better for us." Yes indeed, hedging the Law is breaking the very commandment that we are not to add to the Law. It speaks of a very destructive sort of spiritual pride, pride that sets itself up as somehow knowing more that even God does as to what we need to do to keep from straying. The Law was set forth to us as a tutor both as to what God's holy standards are and our unrighteousness and inablitlity to live up to those standards. The Law is a very complex thing: It is holy, yet it is what brings the knowledge of sin. As Paul stated: I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me. (Romans 7:9-11)

Second: Hedging the Law denies the Spirit. It is the Spirit, alive in each of us, who is able to accurately 'hedge' the Law written in our hearts. "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." (1 Corinthians 2:12-13)
When we hedge the law; basically discard what God has laid forth in favor of even more stringent ordinances we make up ourselves, we attempt to circumvent sin and temptation by making even the conditions in which one might fall into temptation a temptation. Casting a image for the puposes of worship is sin, therefore lets not have any kind of image, any kind of art, any kind of creative expression, lest one find oneself glorifying Satan rather than God. This sort of thinking can only lead to insanity, because once one starts down the path of hedging the Law, it becomes impossible to stop. God told the Israelites several thousand years ago not to worship idols. Now I'm told (not by MEC) that even an avatar is sinful?

Praise be to God that He sent Jesus to us. Rather than to have to suffer under all these burdens and drive ourselves crazy with the idea that no matter what we do, it might possibly lead another into temptation, therefore we need to walk a razor's edge at all times, abstaining from what not only might cause us to stumble but also abstaining from what might cause another to stumb.....bah, just do what Jesus said, "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light."

 

[Vic C.]

Another example of a 'hedge' around the law was in Sabbath travel. There was a prohibition in the Law against traveling on the Sabbath. However, folks needed to go to the synagogues on the Sabbath. So the question arose, how far is too far? When does ordinary walking about become classified as 'travel'? The Pharisees jumped in to prevent others from falling into the temptation of Sabbath travel by erecting a series of markers and posts that would show everybody how far they could walk. As long as one stayed within the marks, one needed not worry about 'traveling' on the Sabbath.

There are some orthodox communities down south who do this. Suburbs of Savannah and Atlanta come to mind. Within the community there is a designated walk area that was "common" to the entire community, an easement of sorts. As long as you walked within the confines of this easement between your home and the synagogue, well, you never actually left home. 8-)

To add new meaning to the term "hedging", many of these easements were lined by... you guessed it... hedges! :-D

 

[Imagican]

ok handy,

You have accused me of ADDING to the LAW. Let's see if I can BACK UP what I have offered THROUGH 'scripture', shall we?

1Pet.3
[1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
[2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
[3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;[4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
[5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
[6] Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

What we have above is a 'warning' NOT to add 'art' to one's body. This is NOT from the OT but from the New. Is that offered above NOT offered through INSPIRATION of God? Are these words of Peter to BE IGNORED by those that 'don't LIKE to hear them'? Are OUR 'fleshly' lusts to be fulfilled through OUR WILL, or are we SUPPOSED to 'overcome' them through the Word of God and The Holy Spirit? Which is MORE important, that which we WISH to allow to fulfill our 'desires of the FLESH', or the AVOIDANCE of that which the FLESH desires?

And this does NOT even offer a 'distinguishment' between 'good art' or 'bad art' but the REFRAINING of the WEARING of it PERIOD. Now, if we are NOT to adorn our BODIES with ART, HOW is one ABLE to justify placing it on a 'piece of canvas', or 'making it from a piece of rock'? Is there anyone here that understands the word, "Vanity"?

I add NOTHING but 'speculation'. Speculation that 'arises' through the READING of The Word. Nothing more. I have offered NO LAW. Just 'observances' of the WORLD around us. I have YET to tell ANYONE that they are DOOMED for their LOVE of 'art'. I have SIMPLY attempted to 'bring to mind' the PURPOSE of IT.

Now, how about a lesson in 'ignoring the PROPHETS: I offer THE ENTIRE BIBLE as answer. READ it and IF there is understanding obtained, then THIS is a GIVEN: God has NEVER left man, 'ignorant' of His will. Throughout the ENTIRE history of His relationship with man, He has SENT His prophets EACH AND EVERY TIME that 'ignorance' arose. Sent them to 'INFORM' man of his quesitons concerning ignorance of certain answers that they had 'not yet been given'.

And WHAT was the 'reaction' of the 'people' that HEARD the words OFFERED by the prophets? EVERY TIME?

I would NOT 'claim' to be a 'prophet sent by God'. HARDLY. I am a simple man with simple understanding. But I HAVE read The Word. I have STUDIED The Word. And there is MUCH that it has revealed that MOST ignore. For the SAKE of their FLESH and the 'lame' teachings of their churches, they LIVE as they CHOOSE to live and follow what they CHOOSE to follow so far as God's Word is concerned. Picking and choosing that which PLEASES them. Instead of actually FOLLOWING The Word, they simply ignore that which would place LIMITS on their behavior. Choosing to BE liars, BE theives, BE rebelious in MOST of the aspects of their lives.

And then one comes along and offers the TRUTH concerning such behavior and is SHUNED as being 'puritanical', like the Pharasees, insane, rediculous,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Hmmmmm...........do you reacon that some of, or ALL of these same words were USED to describe the prophets that WERE actually 'sent by God' to give man His Word?

The question STILL remains and it is NOT ME that offers conviction: Can 'art' BE inspired by Satan? And IF SO, HOW are WE to 'tell the difference'? What makes US able to discern the 'difference' between that offered or inspired by Satan, and that which may be inspired or offered 'from God'?

I am NOT the accuser. I am simply an observer. I didn't MAKE any laws. I would live TOTALLY 'for this world' were there NOT a 'better guide'. If there is 'conviction', it is NOT through MY SPIRIT. I am but a 'lowly messenger'. One buffeted by the 'trappings of the world' on a DAILY basis. If it WEREN'T for a 'higher source' of understanding, I would simply be completely ignorant as to THE TRUTH offered by our 'higher source of understanding'.

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

The question STILL remains and it is NOT ME that offers conviction: Can 'art' BE inspired by Satan? And IF SO, HOW are WE to 'tell the difference'? What makes US able to discern the 'difference' between that offered or inspired by Satan, and that which may be inspired or offered 'from God'?

Hi again Brother Mike.

After reading both your threads (Music and art), I’m finding that your argument is basically the same on both, with only the subject which has changed. Hence, it is my hope to kill two birds with one stone.

To answer your first question, “Can ART be inspired by Satanâ€Â. The obvious answer is, “Yesâ€Â. However, I think you have hit on something which calls for wisdom and discernment when you ask, “How are we to tell the differenceâ€Â.

First, let me tell you what I am not going to defend and perhaps, by doing so it will lead us down the right path.

I will not defend any piece of art that blatantly defies Christianity. I believe this rendition of the Lords Supper serves as an example, after all, pictures are worth a thousand words and I think this gets my point across pretty well.

I will not defend art that depicts Satan or his demons as authoratative rulers or as harmless cartoons. Satan counterfeits as an angel of light, not a harmless cartoon or as an affirmation of a deviant lifestyle.

I will not defend art that depicts sexual acts of any kind. What a person does sexually is not to be put on display. Sex is sacred between a man and his wife.

I think you’re getting the idea, so let’s take a couple examples and see what we can discern.

Let’s take for example a discrete picture of a naked woman that does not show her entire nakedness.

Humans by nature are visual creatures, especially the male species when it comes to the opposite sex. Let’s say that either a male or female artist drew this picture for the sheer appreciation and physical beauty of the woman she was painting. Is this painting inspired by Satan? Absolutely not, and I base this on this principal.

Matthew 15:11 Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.

It’s not what comes into us that defile us; it’s what comes out of us. If we are weak in our faith, or mired in our own culture, then this beautiful picture can be taken in as a sinful portrait, which Satan uses as a stumbling block to your faith. In other words, one is bound by Satan’s influence.

But what really matters here (in the case of being bound by Satan's influence), is what comes out of you. What matters is how you express that internal struggle. Do you condemn in your heart and in your words the artist who painted this piece of art, or are you able to see the portrait as the original artist saw, and felt the portrait? In other words, are you able to see the portrait as it was intended to be viewed?

In my walk as a Christian, I have found that being a Christian is as much, if not more as to how you respond to the world around you, instead of how one reacts to the world around us.

Now then, how would you respond to this piece of art?

 

[handy]

hmmmm, I was going to respond to the earlier post, but given the twist that Stove has added, I'll take my response back to the 'music' thread.

 

[Imagican]

Dora,

I thank you for your honesty.

This whole subject has NOT been to CONDEMN anyone. Let's get that out of the way FIRST. It has been intirely devoted to a question that I believe is crucial for us to answer BEFORE we expose ourselves TO ANYTHING; is it 'holy' or 'righteous' behavior, or is it 'unholy' or 'unrighteous'.

Now, to SPARK on a point that I PURPOSELY avoided for the sake of the discussion: Is there HOLY 'art'? I am QUITE sure that there may VERY WELL BE. But to tell the TRUTH, I am UNABLE to 'discern' any. There is LITTLE doubt that if there IS 'holy' art that there MUST be SOMEONE able to 'discern' it's HOLINESS. But I can't. I have YET to observe ANY art that could NOT be a 'stumbling block' to SOMEONE.

Now, there is MUCH of The Word that WARNS us that we are JUST as much a sinner to OFFER stumbling blocks to others as actually committing MOST others. And for THIS 'reason', I question whether ANYTHING that I have 'created' is ABLE to 'cause' another to 'stumble'? I've drawn and painted MUCH in my younger years. There are a NUMBER of people right this minute running around with tatoos of MY ART on them. i am NOT 'proud' to admit that. They ASKED for it and BOY did I give it to em. But looking BACK from the UNDERSTANDING that I possess NOW, I'm QUITE sure that I WILL be held RESPONSIBLE for it. For I SHOULD have KNOWN better. I won't get into the EXACT DETAIL of the art, but I can assure, that at the TIME, it was some of my MOST 'creative art'.

Pardon me for ONE SECOND, handy. Veritas: I have painted ALL kinds of things. From abstract, to realism, to impressionistic stuff that was considered by my instructor to be UNBELIEVABLE. Still life, yep, but what I was MOST PROUD of was the 'things' that I did in 'pen and ink'.

And you KNOW folks, SO MANY TIMES I FELT 'inspired' to PAINT 'religious stuff'. And EVERY TIME it came out as 'something' OTHER THAN what I THOUGHT I was going to 'create'. My 'crosses' were 'strange', (to me). My 'bible stories' seemed UTTERLY FAKE, (to me). My ATTEMPTS at Jesus were LAUDED by others yet to ME they were NOT REAL no matter HOW MUCH effort I placed into THOUGHT or imagination, they tended to be 'just PRETTIER pictures' than those that I had ALREADY witnessed.

It took me MANY years to UNDERSTAND that there is REASON that there is NO depiction of Christ OTHER THAN 'that which is NOT REAL'. I will NOT get into this here for it has been made apparent that FEW care to hear ANYTHING that I have to offer concerning the TRUTH of this subject. But suffice is to SAY: I was given UNDERSTANDING of where MY ART was 'coming from'. And there was NOTHING righteous about it. I painted FOR ME. I painted to IMPRESS others who LAUDED my 'gift'. I painted to MAKE MONEY. And I LITERALLY WORSHIPED my GIFT. I thought that it made me REAL 'special'. For that is EXACTLY what the WORLD TOLD ME.

I have offered previous that I was a performer for most of my life as well. I performed to IMPRESS others. To be LAUDED by others. I DUG the applause and I DUG being able to DO THINGS that others were in AWE of. Better than 'drugs' folks. The RUSH of 'self IMPORTANCE' when one PULLS Off the PERFECT act. NOTHING IN THIS WORLD LIKE IT. But EVERY SINGLE BIT OF IT was ME. ME ME ME. I couldn't have cared LESS about it if it had NOT been ALL ABOUT ME. I was DEVOTED, I practiced DAY AND NIGHT. It got to the point that I was EVEN ABLE TO IMPRESS MYSELF. Hmmmmm.............. sounds like my gift was benefiting God in 'leaps and bounds' huh?

Now, I DON'T believe that ANYONE 'gets to BE' an accomplished ANYTHING, WITHOUT that SAME 'devotion' that I HAD to offer in order to BE what I WAS. THAT, IF you ASK anyone that is DEVOTED to their ART and is SUCCESSFUL at it and ABLE to BE truthful, they will offer you the SAME words that I have offered HERE. For there is NO way that you CAN please this WORLD without being DEVOTED to IT. There is NO WAY that the WORLD will LOVE you UNLESS you are ONE OF IT'S KIND.

I have said ALL that I NEED to hear. There will be those that are ABLE to comprehend and others that WILL NEVER understand if they live to be TWO HUNDRED years. For the world is UNABLE to understand even the simplest of what God has to offer. The world KNOWS and LOVES it's own. And those that LIVE FOR THIS WORLD 'cannot' please God NO MATTER WHAT they THINK.

So, I had HOPED that I could 'lead' others TO the TRUTH rather than having to 'spurt it out' like this, but OBVOUSLY that wasn't going to happen. For there is JUST TOO MUCH 'church' in MOST to EVEN perceive what I have offered here. TOO many 'churches' that would ENCOURAGE the 'Jesus painters', the 'dove makers', the BIBLE COVERS etc........... And EVERYONE LOVES to FEEL important, right?

MEC

 

[GraceBwithU]

Mec,
I understand your concerns, but why do you think that true Christians need to be warned about art in any form. Once a person has accepted God's grace of salvation...this discernment is simple. We have Jesus to guide us. There will always be the radical soul that will never be at peace.

 

[Imagican]

Mec,
I understand your concerns, but why do you think that true Christians need to be warned about art in any form. Once a person has accepted God's grace of salvation...this discernment is simple. We have Jesus to guide us. There will always be the radical soul that will never be at peace.

This will be my 'attempt' at a 'summation' of my offerings on this thread. It is a PERFECT time considering that it will be 'in addition' to my reply to Grace:

I feel that MOST professing 'Christians' are NOT able to discern. The question then becomes WHY?

The BASIC reason is 'self-righteousness'. The 'illusion' that we BUILD 'ourselves' in that WE are 'righteous enough' to be ABLE to discern.

The PURPOSE of ALL that surrounds us to to 'snare us'. It takes 'perfect understanding' in order to AVOID these 'snares'. And WHICH of us can PROCLAIM 'perfect understanding'? I can't.

So that places us in a position to be INFLUENCED by that which the 'devil' would encourage. HOW MANY have been 'seduced' into a 'belief' that the picture on their wall IS JESUS? How many have been 'seduced' by the picuture of their 'last supper'? How many have been seduced by these words: "What Would Jesus Do"? And how many have been seduced by their 'churches' that TEACH that it's OK to covet. That it's OK to 'partake' in the 'trappings of this world'?

We have been TOLD that a 'bishop' MUST BE 'blameless'. And NOT ONLY blameless, but there are OTHER considerations as well. How many of you folks attend and follow 'churches' who's VERY 'bishop' is UNABLE to 'PERFORM' the office of 'bishop' as pertains to our INSTRUCTION? And we are to 'trust' THESE as ACTUALLY BEING 'our teachers'. The BLIND leading the BLIND.

As our society has become MORE AND MORE reliant upon 'someone' to TELL us 'what to do', so too have the churches tainted our understanding so far as 'responsibility'. WE are to BE our OWN JUDGES. WE are to BE The Church. And WE are to BE the 'examples' to the WORLD of WHAT God IS. And WHAT a 'weak' testimony we TRULY offer. For WE 'ACT' JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. The ONLY difference BEING that WE 'say' that WE believe in 'something different'. But we wear the SAME clothing, we EAT the 'same foods'. We WATCH the same television. We cheer for the SAME teams. We hang the SAME pictures on our walls, listen to the SAME music, and wear the SAME jewelry. We KNOW what the 'coolest' shoes are, and purses, and watches. We can't WAIT for the next installment of 'American Idol' or 'Desperate Housewives'. WE REVEL in 'Superbowls' and "Daytona 500's'. We HAVE to have the 'neatest' Bible covers and phone covers. And what little girl would be content without the 'latest and greatest' piece of jewelry? Whether it be the 'WWJD' or the 'black tshirt emblazoned with the demonic emblem of their 'favorite band'? Unwed, pregnant teens; how MANY are in YOUR congregation? Do you even kNOW, or even CARE?

You will undoubtably state; NOT IN MY CHURCH. Hmmmmmm.............Everyone MUST live in a 'different world' than I then.

Now, the point?

How do you IMAGINE that WE 'got here'? How do you IMAGINE that we have BECOME what we ARE? For the 'self-righteous' or 'truly pure of heart', I speak NOT to YOU. But the REST of US; I speak to US. HOW did we GET here? Pretending to BE that which we THINK we should PRETEND to BE?

Advertising. We have been SENT to our present places through a VERY successful 'advertising campaign'. We have been EXPOSED to and learned to ACCEPT it as if it is just a 'part of our lives'. We have 'bought into' the American Dream, the Power of the Subconcious, the GRAND ILLUSION.

And WHO is the orchistrater of this 'campaign'. Most are OBLIVIOUS to it's EVEN existing so to ANSWER this question would be to offer ADMITTANCE. I DON'T expect an answer. But I'll give it. The 'father of lies' has ALL but 'blinded' us to the reality that surrounds us. Covered our eyes with his fanciful ILLUSIONS of 'righteousness'. "EVERYTHING is OK' he wispers in our ears through the CONSTANT bombardment of our senses through THAT which is APPEASING to the FLESH. he KNOWS the 'carnal mind' and offers WHATEVER IT desires. In the very churches that supposedly 'sing PRAISES' to the TRUE God while WEARING the symbols and trappings of THIS WORLD. Hoping that todays 'sermon' will end SOON enough to 'get home' and 'turn on the TUBE' so that we can get a 'further DOSE' of the DRUG that we 'crave' so desperately. MORE of the same is what our souls 'cry out for'. And NEVER able to 'get enough'. Constantly striving to fulfill MORE AND MORE of OUR desires for 'self-fulfillment'.

For those out there that ARE 'truly in The Spirit'. You MUST KNOW that I am NOT refering to YOU. So you NEED not defend yourselves,,,,,,,,,,,unless there is SOME NEED to PROVE 'just how RIGHTEOUS' you 'really are'.

But for the REST of us. I HOPE that these words are ABLE to 'spark' SOME SORT of 'self evaluation'. FORCE US to 'look in the mirror' and actually FACE what we see.

I have offered it before and I'll offer it again: We worship THAT which we are 'devoted to'. REGARDLESS of 'what it IS'. 'Art', 'music', WHATEVER. And for this POINT have I offered these threads.

Most DENY this emphatically. That there is ONLY ONE 'way' to worship. That one CANNOT 'worship' images, or icons, or idols, WITHOUT that idol or image BEING in the shape or form OF A GOD. They are WRONG. They are 'confused'. They have had their EYES 'blinded' by the EXACT things that I have offered in this posting. Successful advertising of THE WORLD through it's ART and MUSIC,(by NO means it's ONLY forms).

Now, in order to PLAINLY SHOW what I have offered here, I leave this thread with this 'scripture' that CONFIRMS everything that I have offered in the past and present concerning WORSHIP. Take it for what it's worth. Agree or disagree. I CANNOT open ANYONE'S eyes that CHOOSES to remain 'sightless'. It pertains to MUSIC, to ART in ALL it's 'glorious forms'. But here it is folks:

Col.3
[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.[3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
[4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
[11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
[12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
[14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
[15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
[16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
[17] And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
[18] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
[19] Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
[20] Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
[21] Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
[22] Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
[23] And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
[24] Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
[25] But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

NO where in this offering is it offered that we have been 'granted' FREEDOM to live CONTRARY to 'righteousness'. NO where does it offer FREEDOM to BE a 'part of this world'.

Main Entry: cov·et
Pronunciation: \ˈkə-vət\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English coveiten, from Anglo-French coveiter, from Vulgar Latin *cupidietare, from Latin cupiditat-, cupiditas desire, from cupidus desirous, from cupere to desire
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to wish for earnestly <covet an award>
2 : to desire (what belongs to another) inordinately or culpably
intransitive verb
: to feel inordinate desire for what belongs to another

So, if to 'covet' IS idolotry. Then the PROCUREMENT of WHAT we covet would BE as well. And there CANNOT BE 'idolotry' WITHOUT 'worship'. For what MAKES idolotry, idolotry; IS 'worship'. Now, the OBVIOUS answer to this ENTIRE debate on 'art' and 'music' boils down to WHAT 'place' in your LIFE does it OCCUPY? Where in YOUR life do you PLACE your 'art'? Is EVERY bit that you ALLOW into your lives DEVOTED to God? For YOU 'cannot' serve TWO masters. Either you LOVE God and HATE the 'world', or you ARE THE WORLD and an ENEMY of God.

I have offered NOTHING other than THAT which IS offered IN The Word. NO 'personal interpretation', just PURE understanding AS offered THROUGH the Word. That MANY will refute these words is inevitable. For NO ONE desires to ADMIT that they are 'fooling themselves'. But that is JUST A SIGN OF THE TIMES.

And BEFORE the 'attacks' against what I have offered; Please NOTE the 'we's', the 'us's', and such. For I am WELL aware of the PLACE that I AM in this world. I have offered these words to PLAINLY show that I am JUST as 'guilty', (if not MORE SO), as ANY for NOT 'letting go' of that which pertains to 'this world'. That I am JUST as 'guilty' as ANY, (if not MORE SO), in the covetousness of that which PERTAINS to 'the world'. The BIGGEST difference between 'myself' and MOST others that I have encountered is that I am WILLING to 'admit it' and therefore ABLE to 'make efforts' to ALTER this 'truth' in my life.

Am I 'better' than anyone else? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I have offered over and over again that I am PROBABLY WORSE than MOST. But that does NOT alter the TRUTH or the RESPONSIBILITY that we ACCEPTED when we FIRST asked Christ INTO our hearts. Not only for our OWN Salvation, but in EDIFICATION of our brothers and sisters as WELL.

I'm DONE.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

There is MUCH 'art' that is accepted througout the Christian community... ...Can 'art' be INSPIRED By Satan....

You mean Art Carney?

Come on. ANYTHING people do can be inspired by either Satan or God - even whacky Internet posts.

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Mike,

I was pondering this thread while really trying to get a grip on your view point so that I could respond appropriately, so… here it goes.

I want to make sure that I have this right. It’s not that you believe either Art or Music are wrong, but it’s more of a matter of discerning where it came from. In other words, who were they inspired by.

This really is a great question, and after hearing your confession, I can see how this is really important to you. I’d like to take this time and say that the spiritual dilemma your going through is just a phase as God pushes your understanding of the world around. Please, let me continue and please, follow along.

I think that each and every one of us comes to scripture with his or hers own bias. One Old Testament theologian once said, “We form our theology as if looking down a wellâ€Â. In other words, we find the God that most looks like us. So, when I look down the well, this is a portion of the God I see.

I always start off with this verse when looking down the well.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Please note, God did not say that what he made was perfect, for if it were perfect, it would be finished. Thus, Christ’s death on the cross was perfect when he spoke those precious words, “It is finishedâ€Â.

While it is true that once humanity disobeyed YHVH, sin entered the world, I believe that even with our sinful nature, we still have God’s divine imprint within us that no amount of darkness can cover.

In addition, you will notice that God commands all of his creation to be fruitful and multiply. In other words, he gives all of his creation the authority to continue creating. Take note here, God starts his story with humanity in a garden (Gen.), and the recorded story ends in a city (Rev.).

By now I’m sure you and others are saying, “What in the world does this have to do with music or artâ€Â. My response would be this, “Everythingâ€Â, and here’s a quick summary just in case your not tracking.

God empowered all of his creation to continue the trend. The earth is continually changing as continents drift, weather patterns change, a caterpillar magically turns into a beautiful butterfly, a new species evolves out of the rain forest and humanity continues to innovate new ways to work with the resources around us. In other words, creation is packed with potential simply because that’s the way God created it.

Now, catch this if you can. It is God who created us with the ability to produce art and music as they are both forms of expression born out of our creativeness. All forms of art and music would not have been possible if the ability were not granted through God’s divine act of creating us in His image. Thus, I do not believe the case of music and art is entirely about whether or not either were inspired of Satan or God, for truly, it’s more about how we, as a society abuse those gifts and talents to either serve Satan, or God.

Scripture states, “Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.â€Â

I believe all things, means all things. Perhaps the next question might be this, do you love God? If so, do you believe this and if so, just how big is your God? In other words, what do you see when you look down the well?

Let me just end this with a word of encouragement if I can.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

All this, as Paul speaks of his struggles with the flesh (Romans 7)

Grace and Peace.