[_ Old Earth _] Article of Whale and Dolphin Evolution

[Crying Rock]

Should we start with vestigial features again?

No. You should start with the beginnings of the argument.

Show me the first predecessor of marine dwelling whales.

 

[lordkalvan]

Should we start with vestigial features again?

No. You should start with the beginnings of the argument.

Show me the first predecessor of marine dwelling whales.

Well, there were other questions in there as well. All this demand does is raise at least one more. What do you mean by 'the first predecessor'? What is a 'first predecessor', anyway? Your demand seems vague to the point of meaninglessness. Do you mean the first self-replicating molecule? Do you mean the first single-celled organism? The first bilaterally symmetrical animal? The first tetrapod? The first mammal? The first amphibious mammal? And what do you regard as evidence persuasive enough to convince you that you had been shown that which you want to be shown? Do you demand direct ancestral relationships?

Will you dodge these questions as assiduously as you have dodged the others?

 

[Crying Rock]

I see you dodge again.

 

[lordkalvan]

I see you dodge again.

Seeking clarification of a poorly conceptualized question is not dodging. Not answering questions or relevant comments is dodging. I think it is fairly obvious who is intent on hiding their thoughts from public scrutiny.

 

[Crying Rock]

I see you dodge again.

Seeking clarification of a poorly conceptualized question is not dodging.

This is a poorly conceptualized question:

Show me the first predecessor of marine dwelling whales.

:gah

 

[Barbarian]

It's a fair question to ask of you. What do you mean by that? The first living thing on Earth was the first predecessor of marine-dwelling whales. You want to see the ur-prokaryote? Or if not, what do you want to see?

Do you want to see a transitional between whales and other ungulates? Do you want to see a whale capable of walking on land? A land animal that was mostly aquatic? Do you even know what you want to see?

 

[Crying Rock]

It's a fair question to ask of you. What do you mean by that? The first living thing on Earth was the first predecessor of marine-dwelling whales. You want to see the ur-prokaryote? Or if not, what do you want to see?

Do you want to see a transitional between whales and other ungulates? Do you want to see a whale capable of walking on land? A land animal that was mostly aquatic? Do you even know what you want to see?

Thank you Barb, for not dogging the question!

Yes, that is what I want to discuss. It would be ridiculous to go back to the first living thing on earth.

Let's plow through this again and see what we come up with.

The transitional evidence from land to sea in particular.

That's the hard part I have in buying into the classical explanation.

 

[lordkalvan]

[quote="Crying Rock":1kfiay6r]I see you dodge again.

Seeking clarification of a poorly conceptualized question is not dodging.

This is a poorly conceptualized question:

Show me the first predecessor of marine dwelling whales.

:gah[/quote:1kfiay6r]
Yes, :gah indeed. What do you mean by 'first predecessor'? This is a phrase susceptible of several understandings, from the most recent species ancestral to modern whales to the original ancestral species of all life and several stages in between. Don't blame me if your questions are not clearly enough stated so that their intention can be readily and unequivocally grasped.

 

[Crying Rock]

I see you dodge again.

 

[Crying Rock]

[quote="Crying Rock":3gk8rnf2]I see you dodge again.

Seeking clarification of a poorly conceptualized question is not dodging.

Come on, "Lord" Calvin. Where's your positive evidence that whales evolved from land dwelling mammals. Enough with the dodging!![/quote:3gk8rnf2]

 

[Barbarian]

Thank you Barb, for not dogging the question!

Yes, that is what I want to discuss. It would be ridiculous to go back to the first living thing on earth.

Let's plow through this again and see what we come up with.

The transitional evidence from land to sea in particular.

That's the hard part I have in buying into the classical explanation.

So do you have trouble seeing how lobed-finned fishes evolved from other bony fish? If not, can we go on? Or should I start there?

 

[lordkalvan]

Thank you Barb, for not dogging the question!

Yes, that is what I want to discuss. It would be ridiculous to go back to the first living thing on earth.

Let's plow through this again and see what we come up with.

The transitional evidence from land to sea in particular.

That's the hard part I have in buying into the classical explanation.

So do you have trouble seeing how lobed-finned fishes evolved from other bony fish? If not, can we go on? Or should I start there?

This is partly why I was trying to get CR to clarify and define what he meant by his question. His last two responses to my requests for this clarification seem only to demonstrate his unwillingness to be pinned down about anything specific.

 

[Barbarian]

Good legal tactics. A good lawyer, if the facts are against him, will simply try to put as much doubt in the mind of the jury as he can, without offering an alternative to the prosecution's argument.

 

[Crying Rock]

Thank you Barb, for not dogging the question!

Yes, that is what I want to discuss. It would be ridiculous to go back to the first living thing on earth.

Let's plow through this again and see what we come up with.

The transitional evidence from land to sea in particular.

That's the hard part I have in buying into the classical explanation.

So do you have trouble seeing how lobed-finned fishes evolved from other bony fish? If not, can we go on? Or should I start there?

What dos this have to do with land-dwelling mammals evolving into marine dwelling mammals?

 

[Crying Rock]

Thank you Barb, for not dogging the question!

Yes, that is what I want to discuss. It would be ridiculous to go back to the first living thing on earth.

Let's plow through this again and see what we come up with.

The transitional evidence from land to sea in particular.

That's the hard part I have in buying into the classical explanation.

So do you have trouble seeing how lobed-finned fishes evolved from other bony fish? If not, can we go on? Or should I start there?

This is partly why I was trying to get CR to clarify and define what he meant by his question. His last two responses to my requests for this clarification seem only to demonstrate his unwillingness to be pinned down about anything specific.

This is becoming ridiculous, LK. Simply demonstrate, without conjecture, that land-dwelling mammals evolved into marine mammals.

 

[Crying Rock]

Good legal tactics. A good lawyer, if the facts are against him, will simply try to put as much doubt in the mind of the jury as he can, without offering an alternative to the prosecution's argument.

I assume you're talking about yourself? In this debate I'm the prosecution. Demonstrate, without conjecture, that land-dwelling mammals evolved into marine-dwelling mammals.

 

[lordkalvan]

This is becoming ridiculous, LK. Simply demonstrate, without conjecture, that land-dwelling mammals evolved into marine mammals.

We have already had this discussion, but any evidence that you find unwelcome you dismiss as conjecture and therefore unsatisfactory. So I ask again, what level of evidence do you consider persuasive? Why do you find vestigial features of marine mammals that demonstrate a land-dwelling evolutionary heritage not evidential of that heritage, for example?

 

[Crying Rock]

Why do you find vestigial features of marine mammals that demonstrate a land-dwelling evolutionary heritage not evidential of that heritage, for example?

Such as?

 

[lordkalvan]

Why do you find vestigial features of marine mammals that demonstrate a land-dwelling evolutionary heritage not evidential of that heritage, for example?

Such as?

For example, vestiges of the pelvic bones, tibiae and femora; olfactory nerves; muscles devoted to external ears which no longer exist.

 

[Crying Rock]

Why do you find vestigial features of marine mammals that demonstrate a land-dwelling evolutionary heritage not evidential of that heritage, for example?

Such as?

For example, vestiges of the pelvic bones, tibiae and femora; olfactory nerves; muscles devoted to external ears which no longer exist.

"...For example, vestiges of the pelvic bones..."

Come on, LK, you know darn well these are penis girders that are very much functional.