At the Last Trump, we shall be changed ! -

[Hitch]

Revelation 20:5-6 NLT
5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.


If there is only one resurrection, why does the Lord describe what He calls "the first resurrection"?



Not exactly.

Because you were dead in trespass and sin.

 

[Alabaster]

Because you were dead in trespass and sin.

Bzzzt. Please try again.

 

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Hitch Because you were dead in trespass and sin.

Bzzzt. Please try again.

I should have been more clear. All chrisitian believers were once dead in trespass and sin.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Judgment cont



Believers and unbelievers are going to be judged together in the Day of Judgment at the coming of Christ..

2 tim 4:

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

See that, at His appearing same as titus 3:

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Many who are in error say that Titus 2 13 refers to the secret rapture of the church and then they go back to heaven and have a Judgment exclusively for the believers..

But thats not True, this appearing as well as that in 2 tim 4 1 is in regards to Christ Second Coming to Judge the world in righteousness.

He shall Judge the quick [ saved ] and the dead [unsaved] at His appearing..see acts 10:42 or it can apply as well as all who are alive Physically at His appearing and coming and all who had died physically, which shall be raised from their graces Jn 5:28-29.

But remember also Jesus said this too lk 9:60

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Believers will be Judged on the Day of Judgment or Paul would not say 2 cor 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


But our Judgment will not be for condemnation jn 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

However the believers works, things done in the body shall be Judged 1 cor 3:


13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

But again not for sin regards to condemnation. Now will the sins of Believers be exposed ? I would not count that out, and if so, it will be to the Praise of God's Grace [see rom 5:20] and that will be the way we will see it, for then we will be in our Glorified Bodies and totally conformed to the image of Christ, there will be no shame for past sins..1 cor 4:5

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

So yes, both believers and unbelievers will be Judged on the day of Judgment..

 

[tim-from-pa]

At the Last Trump, we shall be changed ! cont



I will be giving proof from scripture as to why the Rapture and the Second Coming are at the same time at the end of the Tribulation and at the end of time for this world..The Last Trump

As pointed out in 1 cor 15 vs52 the rapture occurs at the Last Trump !

Now lets look at the last of a series of Trumpets beginning in rev 8 to rev 11 :

Rev 11:


15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It sounds nice (no pun intended) but there's a slight problem with equating Paul's last trump with the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Revelation was not written yet when Paul stated this. The seven trumpets were revealed to John, not Paul.

Paul was a very precise, theological Einstein of the day. He did not ramble off ecstatic prophecies without knowing what he was saying (as I'm sure many so-called prophets have the pleasure of doing). He would not have alluded to something that he never heard of, nor would he have been inspired to do so since that revelation was meant for John. No, when he said a last trump, he knew exactly what he was talking about therefore cannot be the Revelation trumpets.

I agree with the other post that Paul was alluding to the trumpet calls in the Feast of Trumpets associated with the Second Coming. Unlike Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Pentecost which were fulfilled at Christ's first coming, the latter autumn feasts dealing with the Second Coming and have no historical fulfillment yet (e.g. c.f. Zechariah 14:16).

I love Paul's writings and follow along in them faithfully, but as Peter said, his writings were difficult to understand and therefore twisted all the time as we hear that happening when he's misquoted. A lot of the straight-forward interpretations you hear of Paul these days are in effect wrong, and that's why they are twisted to their destruction--- it does not always mean what it seems like it's saying in other words. I've already been accused of not believing Paul by such "convolutionists" who are perishing before my eyes.

 

[warhorse]

It sounds nice (no pun intended) but there's a slight problem with equating Paul's last trump with the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Revelation was not written yet when Paul stated this. The seven trumpets were revealed to John, not Paul.

Paul was a very precise, theological Einstein of the day. He did not ramble off ecstatic prophecies without knowing what he was saying (as I'm sure many so-called prophets have the pleasure of doing). He would not have alluded to something that he never heard of, nor would he have been inspired to do so since that revelation was meant for John. No, when he said a last trump, he knew exactly what he was talking about therefore cannot be the Revelation trumpets.

I agree with the other post that Paul was alluding to the trumpet calls in the Feast of Trumpets associated with the Second Coming. Unlike Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Pentecost which were fulfilled at Christ's first coming, the latter autumn feasts dealing with the Second Coming and have no historical fulfillment yet (e.g. c.f. Zechariah 14:16).

I love Paul's writings and follow along in them faithfully, but as Peter said, his writings were difficult to understand and therefore twisted all the time as we hear that happening when he's misquoted. A lot of the straight-forward interpretations you hear of Paul these days are in effect wrong, and that's why they are twisted to their destruction--- it does not always mean what it seems like it's saying in other words. I've already been accused of not believing Paul by such "convolutionists" who are perishing before my eyes.

The use of the trumpet in relation to the day of the lord is mentioned at least 4 or 5 times in the OT i am sure paul would have known that. and wouldnt a new revelation as the the events of the end be "prophacy" by definition. I think further study of the 7th trump clearly reveals the return of the lord with the Rapture event as the same event.

 

[savedbygrace57]

tim:

It sounds nice (no pun intended) but there's a slight problem with equating Paul's last trump with the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

Its no problem, scripture confirms scripture..

 

[Alabaster]

It sounds nice (no pun intended) but there's a slight problem with equating Paul's last trump with the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Revelation was not written yet when Paul stated this. The seven trumpets were revealed to John, not Paul.

That's good, because it isn't the same thing...

THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE LAST TRUMP (THE TRUMP OF GOD) AND THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IN REVELATION

1) It is clear that the last trump (the trump of God) is about believers. More specifically, it is about the removal of believers (the Church) from the earth in the Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18; I Cor. 15:51-53). The last trump on the trump of God will sound, the deceased believers will be raised (like Jesus, Lazarus and the Old Testament saints who were dead, buried and raised from the dead), the living believers will be changed (like Enoch and Elijah) and the entire Church will be caught up (or Raptured) into heaven at the same time. But the passage about the seventh trumpet is about unbelievers. More specifically, it is about those who are not in the Church (Rev. 11:15-19). When the angel blows the seventh trumpet it will cause anger on earth, lightening, thunder, an earthquake, great hail, and it will lead to the seven last plagues.

2) The last trump (the trump of God) will be an act of grace. It will call the undeserving Church into heaven. But the trumpet blown by the seventh angel during the Tribulation Period will be an act of wrath. It will signal divine judgment upon those on earth.

3) The last trump (the trump of God) will probably be blown by God (I Thess. 4:16). The seventh trumpet will be blown by the seventh angel (Rev. 11:15).

4) Concerning the events that will take place at the last trump (the trump of God), God tells the Church to “Comfort one another with these words†(I Thess. 4:18). Concerning the sounding of the seventh trumpet by the seventh angel, God said, “the nations will be angry†(Rev. 11:18). They will be angry because the first trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the plants (Rev. 8:7); the second trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the sea creatures and ships (Rev. 8:8-9); the third trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the fresh water (Rev. 8:10-11); the fourth trumpet will be followed by changes in one-third of the sun, moon and stars (Rev. 8:12); the fifth trumpet will be followed by the release of demon possessed locusts (Rev. 9:1-12); the sixth trumpet will be followed by the death of one-third of those on earth (Rev. 9:13-21); and the seventh trumpet will be followed by the seven vial judgments (Rev. 11:15-12:12). This is a far cry from the comforting message of the last trump (the trump of God).

5) When the last trump (the trump of God) sounds Jesus won’t be in heaven. Jesus will descend with a shout and remain in the clouds above the earth to meet the Church (I Thess. 4:16-17). There’s no mention of Jesus descending or shouting or remaining in the clouds when the seventh angel blows the seventh trumpet during the Tribulation Period. Jesus will probably still be on the throne in heaven.

6) The voice of God is not the sound of a trumpet blown by an angel (Rev. 11:15). It is a voice that sounds like a trumpet (Rev. 1:10; 4:10). There is a difference between the sound of a trumpet and a voice that sounds like a trumpet.






Source: Daymond Duck

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Coming and Appearing or Manifestation !
We have different biblical phrases that describe the 2 nd Coming i.e The Coming, Appearing, the Revelation, and the Day of the Lord.

Now are all these terms describing the same advent ? Or does His coming denote something different than the others ? Many are teaching that Christ's coming is limited to a secret rapture of the church seven years before His Appearing or Manifestation or Revealing publicly at His actual Second Coming. But is that what scripture teaches? Will not His coming and appearing be the same thing and the Church, the Saints will be on earth at that time? Lets look at

2 thess 2:

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness[appearing] of his coming[parousia]:

The greek word for brightness is the word

epiphaneia:

an appearing, appearance

Note: Some may differ to what happens first, His appearing , then the seven years later His coming [parousia], with no doubt this appearing or manifestation is His Coming in the Day of the Lord per 1 thess 5:
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

And its used in connection with His Triumphant Coming, when by His breath He will slay His enemies..

So we have both His Appearing and Coming used in the same verse, and both mean His Second Coming to Judge His Enemies...

And also if His Appearing denotes His Second Coming, of which the rapture happened seven yrs previously for the Church, then its interesting what Paul tells Timothy in 1 tim 6:

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing[epiphaneia] of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul told Timothy in regards to His Ministry activities , and fighting the good fight of Faith, to do it until the appearing or manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, so then how can believers in Christ, the Church as Timothy was part of , comply with this imperative if the Church has been raptured away seven years before this Appearing ? So obviously it is at His appearing or manifestation that will conclude the church's service on earth...
__________________

 

[Hitch]

Tim must be pretty old by now

 

[savedbygrace57]

Tim must be pretty old by now

You missed the point..

 

[Hitch]

You missed the point..

You're saying Paul personally instructed Tim to keep busy until the Second Advent ,,,and I missed the point?:biglol

 

[savedbygrace57]

You're saying Paul personally instructed Tim to keep busy until the Second Advent ,,,and I missed the point?:biglol

Yes, That was just the way it was, all saints lived in expectation of His coming...

Now all you have do is read the verse 1 tim 6:

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[Hitch]

Yes, That was just the way it was, all saints lived in expectation of His coming...

Now all you have do is read the verse 1 tim 6:

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

So Paul and Christ purposefully mislead the primary generation of christian believers?


anggggggggggggggggggggh Wrong answer

 

[savedbygrace57]

So Paul and Christ purposefully mislead the primary generation of christian believers?


anggggggggggggggggggggh Wrong answer

Now all you have do is read the verse 1 tim 6:

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[D4Christ]

Greetings everyone,

I do agree with those posts that explain that "the last trump" is not the same trumpet as trumpet #7 which was blown in a series of trumpets.

But that aside, the biggest problem with placing the rapture with the #7 trumpet is that although the elect will go thru the Great Tribulation, we are promised not to go thru God's wrath. The wrath of God is announced at the sixth seal. Prior to the sixth seal, seals 1-4 dealt with the AC and his destruction on mankind. The 7th seal announces the trumpets, which brings the world its first taste of judgments from heaven above and God's destruction upon the earth. It is the beginning of God's wrath.

Therefore, how could we still be on earth....waiting to be raptured...while the angels are releasing destruction and death (Wrath) upon the people of the earth. The only ones still on the earth who won't be harmed are the 144,000 who were sealed by God in Rev 7. Those who were dead and/or alive in Christ when the sign of the Son of Man is revealed in Rev 6 are gathered before God after he seals the 144,000. Scriptures specifically state that the multitude gathered in Rev 7 are those who came out of the GT.

We can also conclude that the trumpets were the beginning of God's wrath because we are told in Rev 15 that the 7 last plagues (which immediately follow the 7th trumpet) would bring God's wrath to completion. You can only bring to completion that which has already begun.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Hitch]

Now all you have do is read the verse 1 tim 6:

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

And either Christ has purpoesfully misled Tim through Paul or your interpetation is a mistake.

Guess which one I think it is.

 

[Lehigh3]

Now all you have do is read the verse 1 tim 6:

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul also said Christ was "about to judge" (mello) & that God would crush Satan under their feet SHORTLY. Now you have a better time reference.
I think some of Paul's epistles ARE hard to understand, as Peter did indicate. It seems even in modern times ppl do not understand the nature of Christ's second "appearing"." Peter said that judgment was imminent (as did the other writers) And that it would begin at the house of God.
The apostles knew they were living in the end times. The end of the Jewish age & end of the law & the old covenant.

I do not vouch for the preteristarchive website at all. But Don K Preston's work here is invaluable.
Every Eye Shall See Him* |* Don K. Preston* |* Preterist Archive

The "last day" had come. It was the end of the Jewish age. Christ came to judge the living & the dead.

God judges the world 24/7. He judges good from evil. Eternal life begins in this life- same as "salvation."

Our individual resurrections are assured in Christ. But if we all must bow our knee to the Lord, as scripture states, then even the worst evil soul must acknowledge God eventually, even post-mortem. Are all souls saved? Maybe after some purifying by fire in the spiritual realm.

I don't believe in total annihilation of anyone's spirit. We didn't have a choice to be born, & I think we don't have a choice whether or not to "live on" or not.

I think God CAN destroy souls in hell- yet the "spirit" can be separated from the soul. The "soul" is the mind, will,& emotions & may need purifying. The spirit can be "saved" as Paul wrote about a brother that was sinning. He told the "sanctified" church to hand him over to Satan so that his "spirit" would be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [1Cor.5:5]

So there is scripture to support ALL spirits returning to God, who gave them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

And either Christ has purpoesfully misled Tim through Paul or your interpetation is a mistake.

Guess which one I think it is.

Now all you have do is read the verse 1 tim 6:

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Coming and Appearing or Manifestation !

Lets look at 2 tim 4:

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

This is Paul addressing a Pastor of a Church, Timothy. And in this passage Christ appearing will arrive, and when believers shall stand before Him and be rewarded look at vs 8

8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

So when does paul expect to be rewarded with a crown ? at His appearing or AT THAT DAY along with other believers that love His Appearing: Now no doubt this is the hope of the Church.

This advent must include the resurrection of the Just lk 14:14 sense rewards will be issued. So the Glorious Appearing and the Resurrection comes together, the context certainly dictates that.

Notice vs 8 " AT THAT DAY" must be the Day of the LORD..