Athansian Creed

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Athansian Creed
http://latter-rain.com/eccles/athena.htm

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.


So the "Son" is begotten, and the "Holy Spirit" is proceeding.

What if the father never begot the Son? And the Holy Spirit was not caused to proceed? They would never exist right?

It seems that only the father exists of himself. The Son and Holy Spirit only exist because they were caused to exist. And perhaps the Father keeps them in existence for all eternity, but they didn't need to exist, and presumably the Father could stop supporting their existence and then the Son and Holy Spirit would cease to exist.

How can the Son and Holy Spirit be genuinely God when they don't exist of themselves? (But are caused to exist.) Things that are caused to exist... well is that a quality that we associate with God?

How can the Son and Holy Spirit be genuinely God when they could cease to exist? How can they be genuinely God when they could die... is that a quality that we associate with God?
 
undertow said:
Athansian Creed
http://latter-rain.com/eccles/athena.htm

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.


So the "Son" is begotten, and the "Holy Spirit" is proceeding.

What if the father never begot the Son? And the Holy Spirit was not caused to proceed? They would never exist right?

It seems that only the father exists of himself. The Son and Holy Spirit only exist because they were caused to exist. And perhaps the Father keeps them in existence for all eternity, but they didn't need to exist, and presumably the Father could stop supporting their existence and then the Son and Holy Spirit would cease to exist.

How can the Son and Holy Spirit be genuinely God when they don't exist of themselves? (But are caused to exist.) Things that are caused to exist... well is that a quality that we associate with God?

How can the Son and Holy Spirit be genuinely God when they could cease to exist? How can they be genuinely God when they could die... is that a quality that we associate with God?

Oh! The cornerstone of wisdom and truth concerning "person" of God. The Father is the only one who is not of anyone else. Beautiful. That is why he is the the "only true God". Have you read A.E. Knoch on this?
 
So the "Son" is begotten, and the "Holy Spirit" is proceeding.

What if the father never begot the Son? And the Holy Spirit was not caused to proceed? They would never exist right?

It seems that only the father exists of himself. The Son and Holy Spirit only exist because they were caused to exist. And perhaps the Father keeps them in existence for all eternity, but they didn't need to exist, and presumably the Father could stop supporting their existence and then the Son and Holy Spirit would cease to exist.

How can the Son and Holy Spirit be genuinely God when they don't exist of themselves? (But are caused to exist.) Things that are caused to exist... well is that a quality that we associate with God?

How can the Son and Holy Spirit be genuinely God when they could cease to exist? How can they be genuinely God when they could die... is that a quality that we associate with God?
Absolutely!!! That is the beauty and wonder of God incarnate in the flesh. So HE COULD relate... so HE could live and breathe and die. Actually, it was so that WE could relate to HIM. The mere fact that they DO exist means they NEED to exist. Everything in and out of God's creation exists for a reason.

Your post is nothing more than secular reasoning trying to make sense of something that eludes your understanding of things Spiritual. Your post is...conjecture, conjecture and more conjecture. Why does this bother you people so much? Is it that you really need to be 100% correct, as though something is at stake if you aren't?

This as bad as the atheists trying to "prove" that what they don't believe in doesn't actually exist.

Why are you wasting our and your time??? Also why didn't you post the entire Creed?

Athansian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three untreated nor three incomprehensible, but one untreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
 
How can the Son and Holy Spirit be genuinely God when they could cease to exist? How can they be genuinely God when they could die... is that a quality that we associate with God?
vic said:
Absolutely!!! That is the beauty and wonder of God incarnate in the flesh. So HE COULD relate... so HE could live and breathe and die.

You have made something of a mistake here, you seem to be ignorant of theology. It is the human nature of Jesus that dies. Christians don't (generally) say that the divine nature can die for the reason that it looks bad that "God" could really die. I guess you have an unorthodox view of the atonement that Deity can die?

vic said:
Your post is nothing more than secular reasoning trying to make sense of something

I was asking a question of Trinitarians. How about you respond to the points made? Simply to label my post "nothing more than secular reasoning..." doesn't get us anywhere. Is that all you have to say for yourself?


By the way, is "secular reasoning" any different to the reasoning used in the context of religion? As far as I know, there is only one kind of reasoning that is in play whether in a secular context or religious context or whatever. Perhaps you just object to reasoning in general?

vic said:
Your post is...conjecture, conjecture

What is the "conjecture" in my post that you object to?

vic said:
Why are you wasting our and your time???

Why did you waste our time with your own post? Try actually responding to the points being made next time, instead of talking nonsense about "secular reasoning". :roll:

vic said:
Also why didn't you post the entire Creed?

Why would I have to? I gave a link for heaven's sake! Anyone that wants to read it could simply have clicked on the link in my post. Is it really that difficult for people to do?
 
Your post is nothing more than secular reasoning trying to make sense of something that eludes your understanding of things Spiritual

The same worn out appeal to esoteric knowledge. Non-Trins could claim the same thing, what would it prove? It only proves you can't answer the question. It is clearly a cop-out.

Your post is...conjecture, conjecture and more conjecture. Why does this bother you people so much? Is it that you really need to be 100% correct, as though something is at stake if you aren't?

Haven't you noticed the non-Trins here are constantly accused of being heretics, which are, by implication if not outright statement, doomed if they do not repent and believe a certain dogma? It is the Trinitarians here who are hollering about there being something "at stake".
 
vic said:
The mere fact that they DO exist means they NEED to exist. Everything in and out of God's creation exists for a reason.

When I say that they don't "need" to exist I mean that they have contingent existence. Whereas we associate God with necessary existence. God must exist, and God exists through and from himself. The Son and Holy Spirit are caused to exist, their existence is dependent on conditions. They do not exist "through and from themselves".
 
Why are you wasting our and your time??? Also why didn't you post the entire Creed?

Are we supposed to be impressed by the content of this creed? It is simply a string of ridiculous contradictions. (Gennadius, 5th century Patriarch of Constantinople, pronounced it to be the work of a drunken man) You guys throw this out there like it is scripture :roll:
 
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