chattymute wrote:
Also, dangling an eternal punishment before you and just forcing you into a position where you have to choose him or perish is not free will. That is called a scare tactic.
kpd560 wrote:
Also, how is the Holy Kings statement not simple blackmail? In other words, "Do what I say is best for you or I'll burn you in hell forever."
I simply can't get this argument.
Would a nation's supreme court which passes a law like this - do not be a terrorist; if you do, you'll be imprisoned for life - be considered resorting to blackmail?
The authority, lawgiver, judge etc. as defined by the nation's laws are only setting forth deterrents to prevent crime. A person need not worry about it at all if he is not a terrorist. But if a person still goes ahead and does it, then he's a willful offender who deserves to be condemned.
Similarly, God is asking you to act according to His will. Hell is the condemnation. It should be treated as a deterrent to prevent sin. One need not be worried about it at all if he's not a sinner. But if one willfully is, then God is only being just in condemning him.
I think the common misconception is that - a sinner is one who sins. It's more like - one sins because he's a sinner. Being a sinner is part of our nature, and on account of that springs forth sins. Take self-pride and rebellion. I ask someone to lay down their self-pride, i think that's when it peaks. It's part of the human nature. We are rebels by nature who need a Saviour.
Just because someone doesn't follow God doesn't make them evil
By definition, it does - anyone against an All-Good God is evil.
And I disagree, there is no all good, or all evil.
Personal preference? If so, you are indeed entitled to it. I shall not question that.
What about someone who has never heard of God?
Everybody does know God - some just suppress the truth and give it different names or attribute it to something else. God does reveal Himself to a person who truly and justly seeks and continues to seek after truth in faith.
...but there are many who do it selflessly, Christians and non-Christians.
You can't say that for sure - as I said, you're only privy to their
acts of selflessness - you don't know what is in their hearts. This was why I'd used the boy and cookie example - to show that even if the command seems to be obeyed, the heart might not be right. It's not to show some abuse of authority.
I see obedience to a parent just because they are your parent as illogical (same for respect). There need to be reasons behind actions, and if they aren't explained to me, I usually "rebel" (or just keep asking why annoying the heck out of my parents).
Do you ask out of curiosity or do you demand as if you had a right to know? If it's out of curiosity, then your heart has anyway decided to obey with/without an explanation. But if it's a demand to know, then what's the intent behind it? Is it second-guessing your parents? If so, it shows a lack of trust that they would have the right intent and wisdom. Even if that can be excused in the case of parents, God is neither wrong-intentioned nor unwise. So, any refusal to obey shows a lack of faith in the perfect God and all this second-guessing shows that you actually think that you could be right and God wrong - I think it's basically self-pride that triggers all such rebellion.
I don't see how sinning automatically makes you evil. Since humans are imperfect, we are obviously going to make mistakes, and to make a mistake is pretty much sinning. (like trying drugs is a mistake for many).
Who are we deceiving? Humans are imperfect because they are sinners and rebels by nature. They want to run the show by themselves and ignore God. So, there are what you call 'mistakes' like drugs. I mean, honestly, is beginning to try drugs a mistake like you mistaken the wrong lane or the wrong house. What causes the desire to first try it, continue in it and then later become slaves to it? Isn't it satan's temptations and the person's own evil desires and lusts? We can term it however we like, but nobody is left with an excuse. And here's where God's mercy and love is seen all the more - for He wills all people to repent and turn to Him irrespective of what they've done - all their confessed sins are thrown into the ocean depths.
Why doesn't he go ahead and eradicate evil? What's he waiting for? Why is his will to prolong suffering and sin here on Earth?
Well, personally, I believe in second chances, for pretty much everything.
I've answered it already in my previous post - I'll do it again. Since it is we people who are evil, eradicating evil would mean eradicating us. He's waiting for us to repent out of His longsuffering and forbearance. This is where you get as many chances as you want - denying it doesn't make God unjust.
If Satan fell to Hell, what is keeping the rest of the souls that go up there from falling to Hell (eventually) as well? Wouldn't that mean that eventually everyone ends up at Hell?
I've answered this too. To summarize - self pride and rebellion can arise because of our will. These go against God's will and are the cause for the fall. Believers in this world are lead into repentance against these - we experience God's mercies and grace and love - and we submit our will to be in conformity to God's will and grace, thereby removing the possibility of a future fall.
And we can't learn that in Heaven because...?
To learn humility, you need to be fallen. To learn faith, you must have adversities that test your faith. Nothing imperfect or evil will be present in the Kingdom of God. Heaven is the promised rest.
Or do souls just pop into existence at conception/ sometime in pregnancy?
Yes, we are created sometime then.
I know many who then accept him if they had actual evidence of his existence and didn't have to base it on pure faith.
It's always about faith - because the very reason that man rebelled against God is that he thought too much of himself and too little of God thereby lacking faith in God that He'd be always All-Wise and All-Loving and All-Powerful. So, to prevent a future possibility of self-pride and rebellion, God saves people by grace through faith.
So, expecting evidence for God is just the same as saying you won't put faith in God which only confirms the proud and rebellious nature of man.
I don't think faith in that way is a good thing, by the way.
Personal preference? I've experienced salvation through faith which seems to be the best thing.
And just to clarify, God is very real to us true believers in Christ - so, this is what we count as 'evidence' - it just can't be empirically observed by everyone - each one has to experience God personally through faith.
And faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Read the Bible earnestly again if you want to receive faith. Just a suggestion - totally your choice.
I don't see how that is a sacrifice either.
I guess some things about God can never be comprehended by man. God is not a theory to be evaluated - He's a person who can be known through the Bible by faith. I would never want to personally experience how a worm feels like, so if God chose to come down in the flesh, then that is a sacrifice in itself. Our personal interpretations then come in the way - You look at Jesus being spiritually separated from His Father and say that it isn't enough. I look at it and say - if God decreed that this covered all the sins of the world, then Jesus' separation and enduring the wrath of the Father must have been tremendous and is the greatest sacrifice and the greatest act of love. Each to his own faith.
And why did that even need to be done in the first place?
Because if God didn't do it, He would be overlooking sin and that would make Him unjust.
God judging you as a bad person is the judgment, not the sentence. Hell is the punishment for not doing what he commanded and Heaven is the reward.
Are you stating your personal preference? Or is this a question? If it's your personal interpretation, I'd respect that. If it's not, then let me tell you that condemnation is different from punishment. Punishment leads to repentance. Condemnation is being judged and life-sentenced for your sin and rebellion.
No, God doesn't do that here, punishment. If he made it clear that it is a punishment to all and made his presence known (at least to that person) then they would have reason to think something is a punishment.
He does, we just refuse to acknowledge that this is God reprimanding us.
Otherwise, and this is my opinion, things happen as reactions to what others have done/ nature patterns and environments. No God needed for that in my view.
If you were expecting fire to fall from the sky to punish you and teach you, then I think that might not happen. God does use the world to chide and chasten us - the Old Testament is full of such instances. Denying that God is the cause for everything doesn't cease His existence.
But that's the thing, nothing is perfect. And who defines perfect anyways? That's like trying to define what/who is normal.
Defining perfect and defining normal isn't the same. If I were to ask what is 5/4, I could get a 'normal' answer of 1.2 but the 'perfect' answer is 1.25. Normal is subjective and dependent on the interpretation. Perfect is a conceptual singularity - just because we are unable to comprehend it doesn't make it subjective, it only means we are not that knowledgeable.
The definition of perfect is God. And God defines it as Himself.
Thank you for replying. I'll cover any remaining stuff in a later post...
