Atheists for peace

[NRoof]

Re: reznwerks wastes his time again

If their atheist belief was real, they would not waste time. reznwerks thinks he has "progressed" past Christianity. Then why spend time here?

I think I know the answer to this even though I'm sure reznwerks would vehemently disagree with me.
I for one am glad he is here.

 

[Scott]

I know you don't know what I know.

I know you are an "atheist" who loves this Christian forum...
I wonder why, unreconciled differences maybe?!

Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

Good, Hebrews 11:1!! check out Hebrews 11:2-3... and lets thrown in John 9:39 for good measure.

You should know better than to try to prove a negative. When did you stop taking drugs? Never did? Prove it.

What kind of drugs? If you've never seen them personally how do you know they actually exist?!?

Sure it does.

Oh you're right, it ranks right up there with "my dog ate my homework".

Santa falls into this category, as well as Zeus , Hercules, Thor etc.

I was thinking more in line with say a mako shark, Bin Laden, and a derecho.

Unless you have somehow gone out of your world what else do you use to come to conclusions as to what is relative?

The theory of relativity is true for many things. An angry person who spends his time in a place completely opposite of what he claims to believe in is likely trying to satisfy something down inside... that was my application of it. You can't seem to distance you self from Christianity, only tells me that you aren't completely convinced its a dead end.

They think the world is created for them, The bible teaches this.

No. See Romans 9:20-23. We are part of it all. Don't like the game, too bad... you have no say nor do I. Except His mercy or sulk, not a hard choice when you think about it.

In your world if something cannot be proved to not exist then it must.

Actually I took the steps to accept it by faith.. after having done that my eyes have been opened and shown the things you cannot see from where you are. Maybe they should redefine atheist to mean one who doesn't believe in faith. That seems to be where you fall... forget disproving there is no God because we already know you can't do that. Maybe you're here in the hopes that if you slander Him enough, He will come out and say "Here I am, enough already". Sorry, doesn't work that way. You'll meet Him eventually, hopefully its sooner rather than later.

This makes no sense what so ever. This is what I am referring too, a lack of critical thinking skills.

Your rationale has already proven to be weak, in fact your whole case has been proven weak. There is so much that you vaguely hold on to that I'm hard pressed to even bother calling atheism an ideology. But whatever we call it, I'm convinced its based on negative emotions towards God, not enlightenment.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: reznwerks wastes his time again

It has always amazed me how much time these atheists spend on a Christian forum. For example, reznwerks has been a member here since Dec 2003 and has posted over 2500 times (about 3 posts a day!)

Thank you for noticing, it's been a priveledge.

If they honestly believed (note the word) that God did not exist, why not leave Christians to live and interact amongst themselves?
Two reasons. One I love to debate and two, Christians don't interact among themselves. They push their ideas into the main stream political agenda.

reznwerks has spent hours and hours on these forums. I doubt he has convinced a single born-again Christian to change their view at all. In fact, he has strengthened my own view that atheists have very little to contribute here.
I am not here to convince anyone. Convincing comes from within after one weighs the evidence .

If their atheist belief was real, they would not waste time. reznwerks thinks he has "progressed" past Christianity. Then why spend time here?
You call it wasting time ,I call it entertainment.

:D :D

 

[reznwerks]

quotes

Scott what was that last post about? You took quotes out of context and answered them. It sounds like your having a bad day. Anyway you haven't stayed on topic nor offered any of the evidence you say you have. My offer to debate you in the PM is always open.

 

[AHIMSA]

Actually, doesn't the idea of faith presuppose the existence of atheism? If the evidence is so overtly clear, as Scott claims, as to the existence of God, that there is not a single person who does not believe in the existence of God (but only pretends not to) Then doesn't that demolish the notion that faith is required to believe in God? Since it isn't possible to believe otherwise?

 

[Gary]

reznwerks earns his other title - reznfails

Gary: It has always amazed me how much time these atheists spend on a Christian forum. For example, reznwerks has been a member here since Dec 2003 and has posted over 2500 times (about 3 posts a day!)

reznwerks: Thank you for noticing, it's been a priveledge.(sic)

Gary: You are right. Allowing an atheist to post on a Christian forum is a privilege extended to you.

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Gary: If they honestly believed (note the word) that God did not exist, why not leave Christians to live and interact amongst themselves?

reznwerks: Two reasons. One I love to debate and two, Christians don't interact among themselves. They push their ideas into the main stream political agenda.

Gary: (1) Why would you debate with people you think are deluded? (2) I imagine you are again equating the USA to the whole of the world. 240 million of 6 billion.... hmmm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary: reznwerks has spent hours and hours on these forums. I doubt he has convinced a single born-again Christian to change their view at all. In fact, he has strengthened my own view that atheists have very little to contribute here.

reznfails: I am not here to convince anyone. Convincing comes from within after one weighs the evidence.

Gary: You have tried to present "the evidence." You failed. Besides, many of us Christians here have been through your stage of atheist denial.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary: If their atheist belief was real, they would not waste time. reznwerks thinks he has "progressed" past Christianity. Then why spend time here?

reznfails: You call it wasting time ,I call it entertainment.

Gary: LOL. I find the little bit of what I read of what you write VERY funny... it must take great faith to be an atheist!

:wink:

 

[Scott]

Scott what was that last post about?

Well in summation its basically calling the idea of you claiming to be an "atheist" absolute foolishness.

Btw... euthenizing yourself in this debate was probably your best option. I've made my points.. if PM is where you'd feel more comfortable then by all means have at it.

 

[Scott]

Ahimsa, statements you make like the following only goes to show you aren't actually reading my posts, especially when I can quote myself to disprove your statement.

You say...

If the evidence is so overtly clear, as Scott claims, as to the existence of God, that there is not a single person who does not believe in the existence of God (but only pretends not to)

I actually said...
"I can understand the unbeliever being agnostic, but atheism is a reach for any mortal human being."

"Proving to you can't be done by me or any other person on this planet, the realization must take place in your own heart & mind."


But anyway... I'm responding now to your first post to me.

I think you really come across as the one that is bitter and perhaps just a little bit hateful.

Thats sounds like a carbon copy response received from someone who doesn't like to hear that homosexuality is sin. Need to be a bit more original... this here is about "atheists".

An atheist simply believes that human beings are the highest form of consciousness, which is a conclusion that can be made based on empirical evidence.

He essentially told me his proof is that God hasn't presented Himself to Him. Neither has a mako shark, or Bin Laden, or a derecho but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The fact that people believing in God has been a consistent fixture in historical records as far back as we go... the fact that people even today believe in God is discarded evidence. As he says, they're all imagining it. Thats how he processes data. No uncertainty, he knows. Knows what exactly? Knows how to manipulate information. But of course, there lies a deeper motive here.

Atheists pose a problem to you, they threaten your religion for the vast majority of your arguments for the superiority of Christ,

: ... thats funny. I can't prove Him to you but I can point in the direction to find Him. An atheist can't do the converse of either.

there is no greater threat to your way of life than the non-existence of God.

There is no threat to me... my eyes are open. I can't deny what I've been shown. All atheism is, is a killswitch to the mind and understanding.

Eliminate atheists from your paradigmn, and then every voice that speaks against the existence of your god is silenced.

Here again, you have not read my posts. Think Agnosticism. My alibi exposes all the holes in your attempt to create a motive. Next.

 

[AHIMSA]

I actually said...
"I can understand the unbeliever being agnostic, but atheism is a reach for any mortal human being."

Exactly, and agnosticism is indifference, not unbelief (in his existence). You still imply that it is not possible for someone to not believe in the existence of God. Which renders faith (in his existence) unneccessary. Believing in God is no longer part of faith, according to you, its what kind of God, apparently, thats important.

Thats sounds like a carbon copy response received from someone who doesn't like to hear that homosexuality is sin. Need to be a bit more original... this here is about "atheists".

I'm not exactly sure how my sexuality is pertinent here, but I do find that there are several members on this site that feel they need to bring it to light when discussing with me. It is unfortunate that it must overshadow every post I make because its something you simply can't get past. And may I remind you, you began your posts with accusations of hate, saying that atheists were the hate-filled ones. I stand by my assessment of your original argument, I think your underlying motives are rather transparent, but I obviously can't argue that with you.

He essentially told me his proof is that God hasn't presented Himself to Him. Neither has a mako shark, or Bin Laden, or a derecho but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Again, a very transparent argument, Bin Laden, a mako shark and a derecho can empirically be proven to be real. We have photographs, videotapes and scientific studies, their existence is observable fact, where as the evidence of God is either purely philosophical or supernatural (miracles) which seem to present themselves in the same way as UFO's or bigfoot: always ambiguous and people can read into them whatever they want.

The fact that people believing in God has been a consistent fixture in historical records as far back as we go... the fact that people even today believe in God is discarded evidence.

Again, no evidence here. The fact that religion has existed practically since the dawn of human consciousness actually works against your argument, because it creates more problems than it solves. Firslty, the existence of religion can easily be explained as a pyschological phenomenon. When the first human beings walked the earth they lived in a radically challenging world, where they had to constantly struggle to survive, where death was lurking at every corner, where the weather could kill them, animals could kill them, or another tribe. Worst of all, they were terribly conscious of this and their mortality...an overwhelming truth. Naturally the human pysche needed to do something so that it could cope (and coping mechanism are a perfectly observable pyschological reality). Religion was invented to explain the apparent animosity of nature, the reality of death and the unknown workings of the universe. As people were spread out across the earth, each system of religion would be relative to their own community (as is observable). Even today, religion continues as a defense mechanism, among other things, within the human pysche which enables many of us to cope with the harsh realities of the world. (a good example is how many people retreat to prayer when near death, because it gives them a sense of power when they otherwise would feel powerless).

Secondly, the existence of religion historically and world wide goes against your personal claims in regards to the nature of God, that is, that Jesus is his son and that there is no god but him. If the God of the bible was the only God, and if your personal experiences are to be taken as evidence of him, then why is it that:
In India people praise the miracle of a Ganseh statue drinking milk
In a Catholic church the Virgin Mary statue cries tears
In Arabia, the Shahaddah is seen in a slice of fruit, or on a birth mark
To the Aztecs, their long awaited God appears to them in spanish armor.

The fact is, the countless religious experiences of people all contradict each other. They can not be taken as evidence because, as a single body, they are completely incoherent. If any scientific theory had as many discrepencies and contradictions as the so called "evidence" that is religious experience, it be laughed out of the scientific community. Somebody who has never been considered before hears the claims of "follow my god!" "No my god!" "no follow this god, this one is the real one".

Yet they all produce the same so called experiencial evidence, the conclusion? There is no god at all, and religion is a product of humanity's attempts to cope with and understand the world.

This is only the beginning of the reasoning. I can see it, and I'm not even an atheist.

 

[Scott]

Exactly, and agnosticism is indifference, not unbelief (in his existence).

You might want to do some research on the word agnostic. It actually is used quite a bit more broadly than you might think.

You still imply that it is not possible for someone to not believe in the existence of God.

You're getting hung up on a specific idea you have for the word agnostic, think a bit more broadly. I'm saying that there are no "atheists". An atheist is someone sure there is no God... notice uncertainty isn't part of its meaning.

I'm not exactly sure how my sexuality is pertinent here, but I do find that there are several members on this site that feel they need to bring it to light when discussing with me.

I just thought you'd like to know that, and I was also curious to see your reaction. I didn't realize you live a homosexual lifestyle if that was indeed what you are saying. Consider that a bonus then. Needless to say your reaction was not at all surprising to me. Its not all that ironic that the ones that are quick to defend anti-Christian ideas and lifestyles are sure to get around to the plethora of other hot topics.

And may I remind you, you began your posts with accusations of hate, saying that atheists were the hate-filled ones.

reznwerks said...

I don't think if a creator of the universe exists he has an ego problem and needs me to acknowledge that I believe in him. Then again he might since man is made in his image. God must have all the attributes of man himself. He suffers from greed, envy, and is egotistical.

For someone who supposedly doesn't exist, that sure is a lengthy description of what one thinks of Him. Unfortunately for you, that post backed up my point... something you've only argued unsuccessfully.

where as the evidence of God is either purely philosophical or supernatural

The truth is alive and well.. you just don't have access to it. Like I told rez, its a members only club that you can't deny or access from where you are. Its free to all you just need faith, and then your eyes are opened.

Again, no evidence here.

Prove it then, prove that Christians don't know God!! You want to pick up certainty of atheism where rez dropped the ball then by all means go for it. You're the fish out of water here, its time you stop blowing smoke and show us the gun.

Where's the body? Jesus was crucified yet the body was documented as missing and witnesses who attest to seeing the risen Saviour. You can't disprove that happened.. history does not support it.

The fact is, the countless religious experiences of people all contradict each other.

Seemingly to the unopened eyes.. you don't see two seperate forces at work in this world. Like I said, classified information for only the insiders.

There is no god at all, and religion is a product of humanity's attempts to cope with and understand the world.

Atheism is supposed to mean certainty, yet you can't prove anything you've just said. You are only showing people try to deduce conclusions to questions they have no answers for. There is no support, just skepticism (usually accompanied by strong word against One they claim to not believe in).

 

[reznwerks]

waiting

Scott what was that last post about?

Well in summation its basically calling the idea of you claiming to be an "atheist" absolute foolishness.

Btw... euthenizing yourself in this debate was probably your best option. I've made my points.. if PM is where you'd feel more comfortable then by all means have at it.

I will let you shoot the first volly.

 

[peace4all]

soemthign I would liek to point out.

Calling yourself a "christian" isnt true either then, because, there is no Certianty, that God is real. You may believe that it is, but as humans, we beleive in alot of things (santa clause, the easterbunny, fair politics etc..)

As my physics teacher pointed out to me during an argument.

If I say "there is no purple elephant in my closet, becaue no elephant can possibly fit in my closet, NOR is there any such thing as a purple elephant, it still might be there, however, although any scientific search will say there is no evidence of one, and it is 100% impossible, it still, could exist, in some form, because there are an infinite amounts of if's (what if the universe is neverending? if it is limitless then surely there is an elephant, that color, that size, because with an infinite amount of chances, and an infinite number of outcomes, everything will happen, including an infinite number of worlds EXACTLY like ours"

I replied basically saying that "well, then that disproves atheism" and he said
"no, it disproves everything. everythign is manmade, and therefore, our words, can mean whatever we want them to. If atheism isnt real, because you cannot be certain god is non existant, christianiyty, budhism, islam etc, are also untrue, because they then, also can not be 100% proven."

etc etc etc.. I think you get the picture... (now, i just hope you dont say "well, your wrong, because god exists, and therefore, I can be christian" because that is the exact same sentence i could use against you.

 

[Gary]

soemthign I would liek to point out.

Calling yourself a "christian" isnt true either then, because, there is no Certianty, that God is real. ...

"Christian" = follower of Christ. Of course that can be true. The rest of your argument is not worth responding to.

:roll:

 

[AHIMSA]

Scott,

You said that my understanding of the word agnostic was too narrow, and I think you were right. However, I'm begginning to see that your understanding of atheism is also too narrow. I don't think anyone here is claiming that they are 100 % sure of God's non-existence, I don't think that kind of certainty is required for one to be an atheist, in fact, I don't think that level of certainty is really required in anything. I suggest you look into Plato's discourses on knowledge, it goes into the nature of what it is to know something.

To the atheist, there is insufficent evidence for the existence of God, so they do not adapt a deity into their working paradigm. That doesn't require 100 % certainty.

And one more thing, before you go out and buy your "members only" jacket, keep in mind that I have a living spirituality myself, and am aware of a spiritual reality. I hardly think fuel for your ego is usefull in a discussion such as this:

The truth is alive and well.. you just don't have access to it

you don't see two seperate forces at work in this world

 

[Scott]

However, I'm begginning to see that your understanding of atheism is also too narrow.

Not really, if they aren't sure then they are agnostic. If they claim there is no God they call themselves "atheists". I'm not saying they can't ever change their mind, but to go from unsure to believing there isn't requires a motive.

And one more thing, before you go out and buy your "members only" jacket, keep in mind that I have a living spirituality myself

Spiritual living isn't enough.

I hardly think fuel for your ego is usefull in a discussion such as this:

Its not an ego... John 14:6 may help you understand better. See also John 16:8-15. These are absolutes.

 

[NRoof]

And one more thing, before you go out and buy your "members only" jacket, keep in mind that I have a living spirituality myself, and am aware of a spiritual reality. I hardly think fuel for your ego is usefull in a discussion such as this:

Yes it is an members only club but unlike other clubs your dues have been paid for you. And even better it is a life time membership.

As for the jacket, one has been made with your name on it and it has been tailored specifically for you.

All you have to do is ask for it.

 

[AHIMSA]

Scott,

An atheist does not require 100 % certainty to come to the decision that God does not exist. I don't understand how that doesn't phase you. An atheist does not see sufficent evidence for the existence of God, so they don't believe in him. That does not mean that they are 100 % sure that God does not exist, but rather, that there is not enough evidence to show that he does. This does not mean that they are not sure of their outlook. The vast majority (i would say all) of the things that we say we "know" we do not know 100%.

Spiritual living isn't enough.

Funny, does your members only club include insights into the spiritual lives of others? Or perhaps God himself has told you about my relationship with him? I wasn't aware that you had sufficent information about my spiritual life to make that kind of decision about me.

 

[Vic C.]

Members only club? LOL What is required to become a member of any club? They have to accept you! What is the requirement to achieve eternal life? YOU have to do the accepting.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

If one feels left out, maybe one should be looking at oneself and not at those who have already accepted.


AHIMSA. I find it odd you would say that atheists don't require 100% certainty to come to the decision that God doesn't exist. but DO require 100% certainty that He does exists to believe in Him. This is illogical and inconsistant thinking.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Scott]

Funny, does your members only club include insights into the spiritual lives of others? Or perhaps God himself has told you about my relationship with him? I wasn't aware that you had sufficent information about my spiritual life to make that kind of decision about me.

The verses I posted in my last post answered your questions.
"Its not an ego... John 14:6 may help you understand better. See also John 16:8-15. These are absolutes."

 

[AHIMSA]

I never said believers should have 100 % certainty.

Scott, did I ever disagree with those verses?