Atonement—Reconciliation

[chessman]

Huh???

You are confused because you chopped my reply up, rather than reading the entire statement. Much as you did to the one sentence that is Hebrews 10:19-22. Verse 22 isn’t even a whole sentence.

I didn’t say that priests under Judaism washed the altar with “pure water”. I said they washed it with goat blood. How could they have used “pure water” as they had none available to them. They used goat’s blood instead.

They washed with pure water using goats blood?????

No, the action (the verb) they performed is the same as the action verb Jesus does to us Christian brothers. But the materials differ. They used unpure water to wash their bodies in order to enter the sanctuary behind the veil /curtain and goat’s blood to wash the altar within the curtain.

Jesus uses his pure blood and pure water (which poured out of His pierced flesh) to wash our bodies and our consciences with.

Therefore, brothers, having confidence for the entering of the Holies by the blood of Jesus— which fresh and living way He inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, His flesh— and having a great Priest over the house of God, let us be approaching God with a true heart in full-assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and having our body washed with clean water.​

Hebrews 10:19-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 10:19-22&version=DLNT

Christ does the washing (and uses His pure blood and pure water for it) within Christianity.

Priests do the washing (and use impure water and goat blood for it) within Judaism.

None of that applies to the apostolic teaching that, in baptism, we are born again of water.

You are misinformed. There is no apostles’ teaching that in baptism we are born again of water. We just established (Scripturally) that Jesus uses “pure water” for His washing (the Hebrew word from which the Greek word comes).

We are initially born through the womb water from our mothers, then Christians are “born again” from above through Jesus’s pure blood and pure water is what Scripture teaches.

And the author of Hebrews does most certainly teach that the yearly washing of the altar by water washed priests using goat blood is applicable to (though inferior and not “well pleasing”) what Christ has done to washed Christians.

Saying above that “You did not desire nor were You well-pleased with sacrifices and offerings and whole-burnt-offerings and offerings for sin” (which are being offered according-to the Law!), then He has said, “Behold, I have come that I might do Your will”— He does-away-with the first in-order-that He might establish the second, ... by which will we have been made-holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once-for-all.​

Hebrews 10:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 10:8-10&version=DLNT

Jewish priests first made themselves holy by each year washing with impure water, entered the Holy sanctuary behind the curtain, then washed the altar with goat blood in order to wash away the sins of the people each and every year. This pleased God, but wasn’t “well-pleasing” in comparison the what the living Christ does to Christians.

Christ, as our High Priest and perfect mediator for all Christians, has perfected our holiness once and for all through offering His pure body (His blood and His water) and washing us (body and conscience) Himself.

Regenerational baptism is a verb (an action) Christ does TO us using His pure water and His pure blood , not that we do to ourselves using inferior elements.

Simple really.

 

[Papa Zoom]

You are confused because you chopped my reply up, rather than reading the entire statement. Much as you did to the one sentence that is Hebrews 10:19-22. Verse 22 isn’t even a whole sentence.

I didn’t say that priests under Judaism washed the altar with “pure water”. I said they washed it with goat blood. How could they have used “pure water” as they had none available to them. They used goat’s blood instead.


No, the action (the verb) they performed is the same as the action verb Jesus does to us Christian brothers. But the materials differ. They used unpure water to wash their bodies in order to enter the sanctuary behind the veil /curtain and goat’s blood to wash the altar within the curtain.

Jesus uses his pure blood and pure water (which poured out of His pierced flesh) to wash our bodies and our consciences with.

Therefore, brothers, having confidence for the entering of the Holies by the blood of Jesus— which fresh and living way He inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, His flesh— and having a great Priest over the house of God, let us be approaching God with a true heart in full-assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and having our body washed with clean water.​

Hebrews 10:19-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 10:19-22&version=DLNT

Christ does the washing (and uses His pure blood and pure water for it) within Christianity.

Priests do the washing (and use impure water and goat blood for it) within Judaism.


You are misinformed. There is no apostles’ teaching that in baptism we are born again of water. We just established (Scripturally) that Jesus uses “pure water” for His washing (the Hebrew word from which the Greek word comes).

We are initially born through the womb water from our mothers, then Christians are “born again” from above through Jesus’s pure blood and pure water is what Scripture teaches.

And the author of Hebrews does most certainly teach that the yearly washing of the altar by water washed priests using goat blood is applicable to (though inferior and not “well pleasing”) what Christ has done to washed Christians.

Saying above that “You did not desire nor were You well-pleased with sacrifices and offerings and whole-burnt-offerings and offerings for sin” (which are being offered according-to the Law!), then He has said, “Behold, I have come that I might do Your will”— He does-away-with the first in-order-that He might establish the second, ... by which will we have been made-holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once-for-all.​

Hebrews 10:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 10:8-10&version=DLNT

Jewish priests first made themselves holy by each year washing with impure water, entered the Holy sanctuary behind the curtain, then washed the altar with goat blood in order to wash away the sins of the people each and every year. This pleased God, but wasn’t “well-pleasing” in comparison the what the living Christ does to Christians.

Christ, as our High Priest and perfect mediator for all Christians, has perfected our holiness once and for all through offering His pure body (His blood and His water) and washing us (body and conscience) Himself.

Regenerational baptism is a verb (an action) Christ does TO us using His pure water and His pure blood , not that we do to ourselves using inferior elements.

Simple really.

Well I don't know about it being "simple" because it reads anything but simple (imagine a new believer reading it). But I do enjoy reading what you have to say on this topic. I enjoy learning about it from both perspectives. I think about it off line and keep coming back to the fact that there is nothing I can do to add to what Christ has done. I can follow Him in obedience but He does the saving all the way. In Christ alone. Baptism is important (water baptism) and in the book of Acts water baptism always followed immediately after a profession of faith. But it can't be that such an action "seals the deal" which I've heard some say (in my early years as a Christian). Salvation is a work of God completely. True faith produces a changed heart which longs to follow Christ in obedience. This would include an immediate desire to be baptized.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

True faith produces a changed heart which longs to follow Christ in obedience. This would include an immediate desire to be baptized.

What about those believers, and there could be several millions of them, who continue to live like their old self , in sin even after accepting Jesus as saviour. They have no clue it can hurt their saved condition . They do both , believe in Christ and live in sin. How does that work out? Why are good works , often called fruit of salvation, not manifesting in lives of millions of believers ?

 

[chessman]

Well I don't know about it being "simple" because it reads anything but simple

I didn’t mean the entire topic of Atonement, reconciliation and baptismal regeneration are simple topics. What I was referring to, that is a simple concept, is specifically Who it is doing the washing/cleansing actions (the verbs) in Heb 10:22.

And what nouns (the elements) actually cleanse us.

 

[netchaplain]

What about those believers, and there could be several millions of them, who continue to live like their old self , in sin even after accepting Jesus as saviour. They have no clue it can hurt their saved condition . They do both , believe in Christ and live in sin. How does that work out? Why are good works , often called fruit of salvation, not manifesting in lives of millions of believers ?

Hi RS, and thanks for your replies! I believe contemporary Christendom (last century or so) is much smaller than we may think. Those who profess faith in Christ and who may even believe they are in Him will manifest it "by their fruits" (Mat 7:16, 20). Therefore those who truly live in sin are not in Christ, and it's my opinion this includes a great many "professors-only" (Jam 2:18).

 

[chessman]

I believe contemporary Christendom (last century or so) is much smaller than we may think.

Jesus was extremely upset at the state of Judaism during His stint on Earth. Many of them professed to love and worship God. Not! What comes around goes around.

 

[netchaplain]

Jesus was extremely upset at the state of Judaism during His stint on Earth. Many of them professed to love and worship God. Not! What comes around goes around.

Hi and thanks for your replies! I think those then who remained in Judaism never did understand the purpose of the Law, but there were those in that system who thought they truly loved God, which was only "zeal" that had noting to do with true "knowledge" of God (Romans 10).

Blessings my Friend!

 

[chessman]

I think those then who remained in Judaism never did understand the purpose of the Law, but there were those in that system who thought they truly loved God, which was only "zeal" that had noting to do with true "knowledge" of God (Romans 10).

And none fooled Him. He knew their (our) hearts:

And He said to them, “ You are the ones declaring yourselves righteous in the sight of people, but God knows your hearts— because the highly- valued thing among people is an abomination in the sight of God.​

Luke 16:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 16:15&version=DLNT

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Hi RS, and thanks for your replies! I believe contemporary Christendom (last century or so) is much smaller than we may think. Those who profess faith in Christ and who may even believe they are in Him will manifest it "by their fruits" (Mat 7:16, 20). Therefore those who truly live in sin are not in Christ, and it's my opinion this includes a great many "professors-only" (Jam 2:18).

Amen. Thanks, dear netchaplain. You explained it prudently

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Therefore those who truly live in sin are not in Christ

I believe this is a very important statement. Very pertinent to each believer

 

[Papa Zoom]

What about those believers, and there could be several millions of them, who continue to live like their old self , in sin even after accepting Jesus as saviour. They have no clue it can hurt their saved condition . They do both , believe in Christ and live in sin. How does that work out? Why are good works , often called fruit of salvation, not manifesting in lives of millions of believers ?

Easy, they don't love Jesus. They can say they do, but they are either liars or deceived. John 14:15

 

[Papa Zoom]

I didn’t mean the entire topic of Atonement, reconciliation and baptismal regeneration are simple topics. What I was referring to, that is a simple concept, is specifically Who it is doing the washing/cleansing actions (the verbs) in Heb 10:22.

And what nouns (the elements) actually cleanse us.

They are only simple to those who have studied them and given them thought.