automatically saved by birth

[th1b.taylor]

You are making things far too complicated.
Salvation is not this complicated.

Hi Rollo,
Salvation is not just God answering a prayer and a good 98% of the preachers in this world are the cause of 98% of the Professing Christians are not saved. This can be said in many ways but I am going to make it very simple to explain. The Sunday Christian that sings in the choir is most likely not saved but rather is full of themselves because of all the work they do in the Church. You'll be lucky to find one Deacon in seven that is saved, they have their self-righteousness to rely on.

Jesus told us that if we love Him, we will obey Him. That means you realize that everywhere you go, 24 hours a day, He is there. It is a personal relationship that He will never force upon you. No, this is a personal relationship that only you can begin. We, every one of us holds our salvation in their own Eternal Destiny in their own hands or should I say, in their hearts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can this be true?
We must have the old sin nature if we are able to fall back into it and lose our salvation.

It is by virtue of the Holy Spirit that you have a new nature and the death of the old one.
Simply withdraw the Holy Spirit and, walla, back to your old nature you go.
Pretty simple.

And I've showed you from other passages in Romans 7 that the Christian still has the old nature. 'Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me' (Rom 7:20 ESV).

We are talking past each other and you don't seem to want to see that for the believer, sin continues to dwell in you and me.

lOz

How can Paul be saying we are still married to an old man he just got through saying died in Christ?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It is by virtue of the Holy Spirit that you have a new nature and the death of the old one.
Simply withdraw the Holy Spirit and, walla, back to your old nature you go.
Pretty simple.

I'll bet if you were in a divinity class in say, Dartmouth, and you said this sentence, you'd be laughed out of the university.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good question
Yahshua was born "in the flesh", yet He was without sin..
In Jer.31:29,30
But every one shall die for his own iniquity, every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Yahshua was tempted as we are tempted. Yet without sin..

As the Lord's Prayer,
Forgive our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil...

My

Which brings up a point I've been waiting to make.
Jesus proves that our flesh bodies do not constitute the sin nature. Unless, of course, someone wants to go on record and say that Jesus had a sin nature.

You are making things far too complicated.

Will your wife have to, by law, submit to you after you have died? No, of course not. Everybody can understand that the lawful marital contract between a man and his wife ends with the death of the husband. She no longer has to obey and serve him after he dies (yeah, I know, pretend this is 1765 and women submit to their husbands).

So it is with us. When old husband 'body of sin' died with Jesus on the cross, the Law of Moses that kept us bound in obedience to our other half, 'body of sin', no longer has power and authority to keep us bound in obedience to him any longer, 'cause he died.

The church needs to stop telling God's people they are still in bondage to and in union with sin. That's the exact opposite teaching of the Bible. Paul leads us to victory over sin by reminding us of the death of now deceased ex-husband 'sin' and his authority and power over us, while the church rationalizes our bondage to sin by telling us he is still alive in us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'll bet if you were in a divinity class in say, Dartmouth, and you said this sentence, you'd be laughed out of the university.

Whatever that means.

 

[OzSpen]

It is by virtue of the Holy Spirit that you have a new nature and the death of the old one.
Simply withdraw the Holy Spirit and, walla, back to your old nature you go.
Pretty simple.

How can Paul be saying we are still married to an old man he just got through saying died in Christ?

I've provided you with the biblical evidence to demonstrate that we still have the sinful nature after salvation. I'll not repeat the biblical references.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've provided you with the biblical evidence to demonstrate that we still have the sinful nature after salvation. I'll not repeat the biblical references.

It's interesting that you would suggest that Jesus had a sin nature and not just flesh still open to the temptations of sin.

 

[OzSpen]

It's interesting that you would suggest that Jesus had a sin nature and not just flesh still open to the temptations of sin.

Why do you invent what I don't believe? I have never stated that. You are bearing false witness against me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do you invent what I don't believe? I have never stated that. You are bearing false witness against me.

Many believers think that just because they, along with Paul, can sin that means they have a sin nature. That's the argument they use to defend the teaching that believers still have the sin nature. If that is true--that your ability to sin is the equivalent of having a sin nature--then Jesus had a sin nature. But we know that is not true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What constitutes the sin nature is the automatic programming to sin and our inevitable submission to it built into men because of Adam. In Christ that programming is destroyed by the now indwelling Holy Spirit. Not destroyed by our obedience to the Holy Spirit, but simply by virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us that programming is destroyed. We have new programming which operates in the deepest part of our being. We are NEW creations that are no longer robot slaves to the pre-programming of Adam. That programming is GONE:

"16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. " (2 Corinthians 5:16-17 NASB)

The better we know and believe that we have Christ's programming in us now, the better we are at resisting the lies of the enemy that tell us we are still programmed by nature to sin according to Adam and must do that. The church needs to stop spreading the devil's lie that we still have and are helpless victims of Adam's programming. No, Christ destroyed that programming when he died and gave us the Holy Spirit. So let's stop regarding Christ according to the flesh and realize we are like him and do not have the Adamic nature. We have flesh subject to temptation like Christ had, but we also do not have the Adamic nature any longer by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit like Christ also had while on earth.

 

[OzSpen]

Many believers think that just because they, along with Paul, can sin that means they have a sin nature. That's the argument they use to defend the teaching that believers still have the sin nature. If that is true--that your ability to sin is the equivalent of having a sin nature--then Jesus had a sin nature. But we know that is not true.

Now respond to what I wrote at #48, instead of giving me this avoidance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now respond to what I wrote at #48, instead of giving me this avoidance.

You have yet to address Romans 7:1-6 which I set forth as the reason you can not use Paul's failure to do right to prove he was speaking as a believer who still had the sin nature.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:2 NASB)

"...we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." (1 Corinthians 8:1-2 NASB)

How we act shows if we know God and he knows us, not our doctrine. Love is the Sabbath rest and the circumcision that signify our covenant relationship with God.

 

[OzSpen]

You have yet to address Romans 7:1-6 which I set forth as the reason you can not use Paul's failure to do right to prove he was speaking as a believer who still had the sin nature.

Please reply to the content of what I wrote at #48.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please reply to the content of what I wrote at #48.

I did. You have used the argument that because Paul wanted to do good, and he couldn't, then that means he was saved, and that his sin showed he still had a sin nature. I have addressed both of these.

 

[OzSpen]

I did. You have used the argument that because Paul wanted to do good, and he couldn't, then that means he was saved, and he still had a sin nature. I have addressed both of these.

You haven't answered what I wrote in #48. Jesus stated in Matt 19:18 (ESV), 'You shall not bear false witness'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You haven't answered what I wrote in #48.

What is wrong with you?
Is it that hard for you to simply point out you're not saying that just because Paul wanted to do good but couldn't that means he was a believer and still had the sin nature? I'm pretty sure that's the argument you are setting forth, but if it is not then you are more than welcome to correct any misunderstanding I may have about your argument.

 

[Classik]

Good question
Yahshua was born "in the flesh", yet He was without sin..
In Jer.31:29,30
But every one shall die for his own iniquity, every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Yahshua was tempted as we are tempted. Yet without sin..

As the Lord's Prayer,
Forgive our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil...

My

He was not of this kingdom - the world

 

[reba]

closed for review