• Love God, and love one another!

    Share your heart for Christ and others in Godly Love

    https://christianforums.net/forums/god_love/

  • Want to discuss private matters, or make a few friends?

    Ask for membership to the Men's or Lady's Locker Rooms

    For access, please contact a member of staff and they can add you in!

  • Wake up and smell the coffee!

    Join us for a little humor in Joy of the Lord

    https://christianforums.net/forums/humor_and_jokes/

  • Need prayer and encouragement?

    Come share your heart's concerns in the Prayer Forum

    https://christianforums.net/forums/prayer/

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes coming in the future!

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

Baptism... Again?

Mike

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
15,286
Reaction score
1,475
This isn't about me. Someone asked me this, and I wanted to put it out there.

She was baptized as an infant - with water - in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, many years later, she is converting to another denomination, and they expressed the need to be baptized again! :o

With that, my feelings are clear. I would tell the pastor, no I wasn't aware of what was happening as an infant when I was baptized, but I was baptized. And God knew what was happening. There's no need to redo what was done. I was baptized and brought into the family of God. This is between myself and my God. If this is required to be a member here... have a nice life!

How do you feel? Do any of your churches require this of those baptized as infants?
 
Hi Mike,

I think first one would have to decide if infant baptism was a biblical approach to baptism. What scriptures would you use to support infant baptism?

Historically, when did the church start baptizing infants?
 
My feelings are that baptism must be a conscious decision made to be done after salvation. Since infants can't make a conscious decision, well... Baptism is not required for salvation but it is expected that believers be baptized if possible.

I have heard of other churches that require a specific baptism to join their congregation.(actually I have a thread about it in here). I don't believe it is necessary to have a seperate one just for your congregation but again, it needs to be a conscious decision made by a believer.
 
I really didn't intend on this being a discussion on whether infant baptism is valid or not. I understand that this may need to come before the discussion on the need of an additional one is necessary, but this has been done and done. I was hoping to keep this on the point of needing a second one. I personally haven't seen it discussed.

I suppose I'd be open to talking about this, but I'd like to get perspectives on my OP first if we could. My guess is that you two would say these people would need another. You can correct me if I'm wrong. Obviously this would mean millions and millions of Catholics, Lutherans (myself), and others are not baptized in your view. :( You can correct me if I'm wrong there as well.
 
In Acts 19, Paul encounters a group of disciples and asks them about their baptism. They had been baptized according to John's baptism, which was one of repentance, and a part of the ministry that preceded Christ's. But Paul re-baptized them into the name of Jesus. Although this is not quite the same circumstance as your OP, I think it may apply. These men had been baptized, but there are many types of baptisms, the Jews have many for different cleansings and one for conversion. But these men had not understood what the baptism of Christ was about, and so Paul explained it to them and re-baptized them. I think that a person needs to understand what their baptism means when they get baptized, otherwise it is an empty practice. :twocents
 
New Test -- "Adults only ... jump in over your heads!"
Churches -- "Hey, sprinkle allah dem der babies!"

As usual, quite a difference.
 
Staying strictly with the question in the OP, if she feels that baptism at this point is not necessary for her, and the church insists on it, then perhaps she should find another church. If she has no problems with being baptized again, then I say go for it.

You asked about churches..... The churches I attend, in general, believe that baptism should follow the choice of salvation. Salvation, in that regard is a choice. If the individual repents and becomes "saved" at 3 or at 30, then they would be encouraged to be baptized after that. I write "encouraged" because the churches I attend, in general, do not push baptism, nor force it, nor require it. It is encouraged, but left to the choice of the individual. Baptism is important, but not required for salvation. They teach that all who are saved "must" be baptized in water through immersion, but again, it is left to the individual. (you could say it is more of an honor system thing. I've never known of a church to ever ask for a certificate of baptism, nor anything else.) Baptism is important, because of what it represents, and what it symbolizes. But the churches leave it up to the choice of the believer. I have seen people re-baptized after re-dedicating their life. I have seen people re-baptized who had been baptized as infants. I have seen people re-baptized who simply have felt the need to do it again.
 
This isn't about me. Someone asked me this, and I wanted to put it out there.

She was baptized as an infant - with water - in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, many years later, she is converting to another denomination, and they expressed the need to be baptized again! :o

With that, my feelings are clear. I would tell the pastor, no I wasn't aware of what was happening as an infant when I was baptized, but I was baptized. And God knew what was happening. There's no need to redo what was done. I was baptized and brought into the family of God. This is between myself and my God. If this is required to be a member here... have a nice life!

How do you feel? Do any of your churches require this of those baptized as infants?

Infant baptism is really a dedication ceremony. It doesn’t bring salvation or a cleansing from sin. It’s when parents dedicate their child to God, and is an adaptation of the Jewish circumcision without the shedding of blood.

Infant baptism is not supported in scripture, the need for adult water baptism is not supported in scripture. It is read wrong by those who want to impose their own view. They do not think the Lords death was sufficient so now they must do more (works), and the have to make sure as many people as possible see it.

For a church to require you to be baptized again shows that they have a lack of faith and are also trying to get you to bend to their rules and interpretations instead of using the Bible which is the word of God.
 
This isn't about me. Someone asked me this, and I wanted to put it out there.

She was baptized as an infant - with water - in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, many years later, she is converting to another denomination, and they expressed the need to be baptized again! :o

With that, my feelings are clear. I would tell the pastor, no I wasn't aware of what was happening as an infant when I was baptized, but I was baptized. And God knew what was happening. There's no need to redo what was done. I was baptized and brought into the family of God. This is between myself and my God. If this is required to be a member here... have a nice life!

How do you feel? Do any of your churches require this of those baptized as infants?


Pretty much all 'Baptist' fellowships will require it for "serious membership". Although most will consider you as one of them regardless. Any fellowship that "requires" it without full explanation of the teaching of it, and I do mean full, I would turn away from in a heart beat.

But yet. There is good reason to be firm in ones belief on this. I think that there is only one reason a fellowship should turn away anyone, and that is a lack of Faith. True Faith. Faith that is evident. I am not just talking about a 'profession of faith'.

I really have to be in awe of God... He puts up with so much of this division among us. And yet He gives the reason He has not broke through the clouds and cleansed the earth of all its sickness... and that is His loving mercy and kindness toward us in that He is wanting all to come to repentance. What an Awesome God we serve!!
 
Okay, so maybe I shouldn't have thought we could side-step the issue of the validity of infant baptism in getting to the crux of my OP. :shrug

First, I will say, I respect the views of those who believe the individual has to make a conscious decision to be baptized as well as those of us who find a miraculous event in the infant baptism. I'm not going to go to war over this, because I don't believe that's necessary. I've read posts by some that take certain extremes. Some find true baptism not only as an adult, but only in immersion as well. Others might say it is crucial that a newborn is baptized ASAP, because without it, original sin dooms them to hell. I find both of these extreme and won't get wrapped up in that argument either.

I know there are verses that call for the the person to "repent and be baptized"

Romans 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

But, Peter was talking to those who can repent; adults. And he goes on to say:

"39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

He doesn't seem to put limitations on who can and should be baptized. I suppose someone will say, in including "children", he's talking about generations who will follow the one's he's speaking to, but it's up for discussion, in my opinion.

I believe scripture speaks to baptism being Grace poured down on the person without being dependent on anything the person does. Titus 3:

"4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

I sort of got pulled into a stance of defending infant baptism, which I didn't intend to do. As I said, I'm not going to argue this over pages of posts. I do believe baptism is more than a simple demonstration, but I don't believe it is absolutely necessary. We should be baptized. I'm guessing the thief on the cross wasn't, but he was assured his place in paradise with Jesus.

All this to say, I believe infant baptism has validity and has all the fullness of adult baptism by the power of the Lord, not by anything we do. And if a pastor refused to acknowledge my baptism, I would have to find another place to worship.

*EDIT* NH, thanks for your response. :) I was put on hold through this, and your post came in while I was composing this response.
 
Hi Mike,

I'm not one that views Baptism as a line in the sand between heaven and hell, so please don't read this into what I'm about to say.

I believe that baptism is part of our salvation, but it has nothing to do with us being justified before God. This is hard for some to unerstand, so I hope it's not mistaken.

That being said, I'd like to take a look at the passage in Acts you posted:

"39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."


If we look at this in context, Peter is talking to the same Jews who had Jesus Crucified. Let's recap.

Matthew 27:24 So when Pilate saw that he prevailed nothing, but rather that a tumult was arising, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this righteous man; see ye to it.
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


When we look at Acts 2:38-39, we have to keep in mind their sins.
Exodus 23:1 "Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness.
2 "Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd,
7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

Now then, take another look at what these very same people said just months earlier.
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Is it any wonder why they respond on pentecost the way the do?


Acts 2:36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

So we see, that the promise was for their children. And BTW, as far as Exodus 23:7, the beauty of what happened on the Cross was their sins were Atoned for though the shed blood of Jesus.

We serve a just and mighty God Amen!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi, Steve ;)

I see you posted this last post for Bible study topic, though not for baptism. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your last post here. Just letting it settle in - not reacting.

I'll be back soon! :thumbsup
 
Hi, Steve ;)

I see you posted this last post for Bible study topic, though not for baptism. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your last post here. Just letting it settle in - not reacting.

I'll be back soon! :thumbsup

:lol:lol:lol

It's all good brother, you know I love ya!
 
Prologue ;)


Okay, Jeff (and anyone who picks this up). I started writing my response to you and then I was like Forest Gump. I just kept writing! I honestly have to say I’m sorry. I never intended this to be so long. I just got wrapped up in Bible aerobics and couldn’t stop. I doubt anyone else will take the time to read this, but Jeff you better! As Barry Manilow said, “This one’s for you†– and it took me a long time! :lol



Jeff, getting into any matter with you is a blessing, because you force me to dig deep. It’s amazing when you get so entrenched scripture, you look up and it’s been an hour. I’ve got to go see what’s going on in the humor forum. Please forgive me for any typos or sentences that don’t make sense. I haven’t the strength to proofread myself!:lol


And now… Infant Baptism…by Mike (I listen to a lot of audio books in the care):-)



----



What I'm trying NOT to do is fall in the trap of setting my mind on this subject and searching for biblical evidence to support my belief. Believe me, having spent my life immersed in the legitimacy of infant baptism, it's hard to release that foundation and look openly at scripture to see where it leads. I don't want to lead scripture. I want to be Lead.

As I see this, it comes down to a few key aspects we have to consider.

1. There is no supporting scripture specifically stating that infants should be baptized.
2. Scripture tells us a person must repent and then be baptized.
3. There needs to be a conscious decision by the person being baptized.


Would you agree that this represents your reasoning for rejecting infant baptism? I hope so, because that's what I'm going with here! :)

1. I agree there is no biblical instruction to baptize infants. If someone is basing their view on this alone, nothing will be found to lead them to any conclusion other than it is wrong. But a few things here. There's nothing saying not to. I'm not going to rely on that. I've discussed issues with Catholics who say the same thing about praying to Mary: “There's nothing saying not to.†To which I say, “You can’t have affirmation by omission.†So there's nothing saying you shouldn't baptize infants AND there are were occasions where entire households were baptized. Here's just a few...

Acts 18:15 "When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us."

Acts 18: 33-34 "33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family."

In addition you have 1 Cor 1 with Paul describing the household of Stephanas. Are we to assume none of these and other households mentioned had any children or that they did have young children but they were not included? They do say "all of their households".


Would you agree that baptism could be compared to circumcision in OT law? Paul did.


Col 2:9-12 “9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[ not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.â€


Infants were circumcised very young, weren’t they? Back in Genesis 17…


“9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.â€

I have to deal with the fact that there are no accounts or instruction for infant baptism, but one who opposes has to deal with the lack of scripture instructing not to AND entire households being baptized while not acknowledging the relationship between baptism and circumcision.

2. & 3. I'm going to include both of these together, because they seem to be intertwined. While we're seeing the Bible instruct us to "repent and be baptized", some are led to conclude that only the conscious participant can repent in the first place in order to be baptized. I have to admit, this has posed more of an issue for me than the first point. I never questioned it growing up. My church just did infant baptism. When I came to life-saving faith as an adult, I started looking very critically at this. How can an infant who has no concept of what he is going through repent? He cannot! I spent a lot of time talking with friends from other churches that practiced “believers baptismâ€.

I had to wrestle with this, while considering that scripture also tells us that faith is given to us. Is it any more a miracle that an ardent atheist can come to faith than it is that faith can be placed in the heart of an infant? This is what brought me back to affirmation to believe that it can be so. Considering Mark 16.


â€15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.â€


It strikes me as odd that Jesus would put “believesâ€, “baptized†and “saved†in that order. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them as: saved --> believes --> baptized? So when we’re told to repent and be baptized, is it absolutely necessary that we do this in the same order?



Here is where I’m going to break away from the “believers baptism†theology and consider more what is happening during baptism. I know you well enough to know you don’t believe we earn God’s Grace. Is it that difficult to conceive that God could gift a people with His Grace at such a young age that they don’t consciously participate and ask the Lord to come into their lives.


Eph 2 “8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.â€


If it is by Grace that we receive faith, could it be by Grace that infants receive faith in and with their baptisms? You may not believe, but I do. I don’t find it a stretch to submit that something amazing is happening there, and Grace is poured out on the person whether it’s as a conscious adult or an infant.


He now, consider Romans 6. “3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.â€


When an adult who was baptized as an infant looks back at the moment of their baptism, he thinks that is the instant God put His seal on him. That’s an awesome thing to consider!! God, independent of the infant reaching to Him, placed His seal on the baptized one. No radical conversion necessary. God does it all, because God-does-it-all. So we are dead to sin in Christ. Does this mean we never sin again? Of course not. Are we automatically saved because we were baptized. I would say not. (I’m not into OSAS) Clearly some fall into apostasy. But it’s not any less significant.

Back in verse 3, Paul seems to be convinced that they were not aware of the significance of their baptism. “Or didn’t you know that all of us who were baptized…†It sounds like he was assuming they didn’t understand the significance. Did this make it any less significant? Did he tell them the solution was to be baptized again? NO!! He calls for them to put their faith to work and benefit from their baptism. Down further in Romans 6.



“11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.â€


So then I come to my original purpose of my OP. The solution that Paul gave was not to be baptized again. He acknowledged what occurred in their baptism. Pastors should acknowledge what takes place in infant baptism. They should not force a redundant event demonstrating a lack of faith in the power of God to call an infant to His family. :nono



I’m spent, brotha! No doubt you will have plenty to say about this, but I’m tapped out. I’ve used up all of my stamina! Nothing left!


:study :type :study :type :study :type



Mike
 
Mike,


Well, where to start without writing a book in response? First, let me say that I do hope our differences in scripture regarding this topic doesn’t find itself as a wedge between us. Regardless how we differ on this topic, I still consider you my brother in Christ. This goes for Joe if he is reading this topic as well.

Instead of debating scripture, I think I’ll take the approach of history. From what I’ve been able to gather through the years, Baptism was seen much in line with Jewish reasoning in regard to the age of accountability. As such, the Jews did not Baptize children that I can find (If you or anyone else could cite a reference in opposition to this view, please do as I would welcome such a reference)

Jesus and the apostles were Jewish, and we know that Jesus was baptized by John at the beginning of His ministry. So, if you can find a Jewish source that shows that the Jews baptized their children or you can find it within the Bible I would be open to the idea of infant baptism as following with biblical, or Jewish principles. You mentioned that Baptism replaced circumcision, but I would state that Moses spoke more on circumcision of the heart, than that of the flesh. 1 Peter 3:21 would be foreign to an infant.

I have a book I purchased several years ago called “Church History in plain Language” by Bruce L. Shelly and I found it intriguing that infant baptism did not occur until I believe the time of Saint Augustine. Again, I am open to another view if somebody can show me of an earlier writing that suggests otherwise. In that light, Shelly attributes the decision by the church to baptize infants as the result of Saint Augustine’s debates with the Universalists who believed all were going to heaven (Origin promoted Universalism as well). So it was said that Augustine won the argument based on their agreement that if one was not baptized, one was not saved. This catapulted the unfamiliar doctrine of Original Sin coined and derived by Augustine and thus, infants were baptized. I did try to look this up in my book the night before last so I could pull his references that support his summary but was unable to locate the exact page and after reading 4 -6 pages or so gave up looking. I imagine somebody will call me on this and I’ll have to find the supporting documentation… I’m really not looking forward to that. Eh.. so be it if need be.

I want to keep this short, so in closing I would use the example of Hezekiah celebrating the Passover in violation of God’s prescribed manner as it pertains to the principal of “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”. If you would take a moment and read 2 Chronicles 30 it may help before you read any further. You see, I believe that God looks at our heart, and just because we don’t get the rite or ritual correct for understandable reasons, doesn’t mean it’s not acceptable to God in light of said circumstances.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jeff, points well taken. :yes In re-reading how I scripted my last response, I'm hoping the stenographer will record this too. ;) Although it would be reasonable to assess from my response that I was argumentative, I was in fact, merely trying to establish why I believe what I believe. I wasn't (consciously) trying to debate or convince. I truly do see the seed of faith being gifted in infant baptism.

But, truly, what it comes down to is where our hearts are in the matter. I've seen posts that bring legalism to baptism, and others that make it appear trivial. God knows our hearts, and I see many Christians with a completely different POV from mine whose faith I admire greatly; yourself included.

But I'm not sure if you ever addressed my OP. :confused If someone was baptized as an infant, do you believe they need to be baptized again as an adult. Believe me; no insult will be inferred. :-) I'm sound in my confidence that I AM baptized, so this isn't about me. Just curious about your take.

Be blessed
 
I have a book I purchased several years ago called “Church History in plain Language†by Bruce L. Shelly and I found it intriguing that infant baptism did not occur until I believe the time of Saint Augustine. Again, I am open to another view if somebody can show me of an earlier writing that suggests otherwise.

Hello Jeff, this is a quote from Tertullian's writing of "On Baptism" written in 210 A.D. While Tertullian wrote against the practice of infant baptism, it seems to me that since he felt the necessity to write about this sacrament, that infant baptism occurred well before the time of Augustine. Please correct me if you disagree.

"Why should innocent infancy come with haste to the remission of sins? Shall we take less cautious action in this than we take in worldly matters? Let them first learn how to ask for salvation, so that you may be seen to have given to one that asketh" On Baptism-Ch. 18 pg. 39

Tertullian: De Baptismo Liber. E. Evans, 1964. Latin and English

God bless, Westtexas
 
Hello Jeff, this is a quote from Tertullian's writing of "On Baptism" written in 210 A.D. While Tertullian wrote against the practice of infant baptism, it seems to me that since he felt the necessity to write about this sacrament, that infant baptism occurred well before the time of Augustine. Please correct me if you disagree.

"Why should innocent infancy come with haste to the remission of sins? Shall we take less cautious action in this than we take in worldly matters? Let them first learn how to ask for salvation, so that you may be seen to have given to one that asketh" On Baptism-Ch. 18 pg. 39

Tertullian: De Baptismo Liber. E. Evans, 1964. Latin and English

God bless, Westtexas

West,

Good catch. I belive the earliest reference in writing on the subject is from Irenaeus. Origen considers the practice of "apostolic origin". Historically speaking, there is no reason to doubt that practice, I would have to research the precise quote. Not sure where the Shelly could state that there is no evidence of infant baptism prior to Augustine - this presumes that the idea began with Augustine's doctrine of original sin, which is NOT why the early Church baptised...

Regards
 
West,

Good catch. I belive the earliest reference in writing on the subject is from Irenaeus. Origen considers the practice of "apostolic origin". Historically speaking, there is no reason to doubt that practice, I would have to research the precise quote. Not sure where the Shelly could state that there is no evidence of infant baptism prior to Augustine - this presumes that the idea began with Augustine's doctrine of original sin, which is NOT why the early Church baptised...

Regards
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL THIS TIME!!! :angry

:lol :lol :lol
 
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL THIS TIME!!! :angry

:lol :lol :lol

Mike,

I come here daily, but I have to scale back my discussions - and lately, not many of the topics have interested me, anyways. I have been PM'ing discussions back and forth with some I met here, so that is keeping me busy there.

If someone wants Origen's or Irenaeus' citation on infant baptism, I would be happy to dig it up, 150 years plus before Augustine.

Take care

Joe
 
Back
Top