Baptism... Again?

[stovebolts]

Actually .... I am a sister in Christ.... ;) Blessings.

Hey, at least you havn't called me Steve :toofunny

Mike,
No worries. Get to it when you get to it.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hey, at least you havn't called me Steve :toofunny

Wha...? You mean.....? YOUR NAME ISN'T STEVE?! Jumping jeffbolts Batman..... his name isn't Steve.

 

[stovebolts]

Wha...? You mean.....? YOUR NAME ISN'T STEVE?! Jumping jeffbolts Batman..... his name isn't Steve.

Now that is what I call great theological insight! :biglol

Ohh goodness my cheeks hurt from laughing so hard! Ok, back to the grind :whip

 

[Mike]

The key word above is, "Your Faith". (See Hebrews 11 on the faith we are speaking about) An infant does not proclaim Jesus as Lord, so how would baptism benifit a child?... Is it possible that when we turn baptism into a mere ritual, no matter how good our theology sounds, it simply become meaningless which accounts for why you say that some become apostate?... Do they really or is it that they never had a circumsission of the heart once they grew up? If this is so, then can we honestly say that as an infant they experienced the baptism Paul writes about above?

Perhaps we view the innocents of children differently? For the record, I believe ALL infants and children are not accountable for their sins and the blood of Jesus covers them.

Jeff,

I had to read your post a few times to let it settle in. Upon first run, it sounded like you were digging your heals in further, in reducing what I believe in infant baptism being a “ritual”. But my interpretation of your post took a different shape as I re-read it. You may see infant baptism as a ritual, but I do not. I see it as a spiritual event. I believe we have agreed on this much over a number of threads: While baptism isn't a meaningless ritual, this isn't where we place our faith. However, it is a very meaningful event. More so than we can possibly conceive, I would say. That said, baptized or not, as you quoted Deuteronomy 6, the heart is where we come to an eternal relationship with Christ. This chapter speaks to the onus God gave us to teach our children and immerse them in His Word.

You spoke a lot about our sins, our sinful nature and how it applies to infants and children. You asked if I believe children must come to make a conscious decision to follow the Lord. Of course! As I said, I don't believe baptism saves us. Baptism doesn't cover our sins. The Blood of Jesus does.

Ephesians 2
"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Psalm 51 says "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." With that, we believe in original sin. I don't feel the need to rush an infant into baptism as the Catholics do. A child is always in the Loving Hands of God from the moment of conception, and I believe He places the seed of faith in them to follow Him through the baptism of an infant. They might never grow into a faithful servant, but whether baptized as an infant or an adult, there's no assurance of this after baptism either. Baptism as an adult (for me) carries no more weight than baptism of an infant, but it carries no less either. An adult can choose to be baptized, and walk away from their faith, just as an infant can grow up never to embrace this seed of faith God had planted.

As far as I know, there's nothing scriptural to point to a specific age when children become accountable for their sins. I would take that further and say, there's no specific “anything” to say when this happens, except to conclude from scripture as a whole that this happens when they have the ability to recognize God through His revelation. At this point, I’m talking about accountability for sins in terms of salvation. A child who is unable to conceive of God or the ramifications of their sins will not need to be accountable for them.

Psalm 19
”[FONT=&quot] 1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]While God reveals Himself to people living in remote corners of the world to the point that they recognize their sin and repent, I don’t know. My feeling is that by grasping His presence and creation and humbling themselves to His Majesty, this is recognition enough to consider that they will be saved – if they never hear the Gospel. I’ve read opinions that young people are not accountable for their sins until they are able to grasp the Gospel. To that I would ask, “What about someone in a remote area who dies at a point that they can grasp God but don’t have the ability to grasp the Gospel and the need for repentance?”

This is veering off topic, so I’d like to bring it back. Who, when and why we are saved is separate from Baptism to a degree. I say “to a degree” because someone who refuses to be baptized might have underlying issues that are separating him from the Lord. But baptism is a spiritual cleansing and regeneration that facilitates the manifestation of the Lord. As I said earlier, how this works exactly is far beyond my comprehension; so far that I wouldn’t presume that He doesn’t move the heart of an infant who He is calling to be baptized.

I do see what you and others are saying about the Word speaking to the need for repentance prior to being baptized, and I’m listening. This conversation has served to give me much more to pray on and open my heart to. I never want to conclude that I’ve finalized certain things and closed myself off to growing, and if need be, changing my view. If Given many more years here to absorb the significance, this will be something that churns in my heart for a long time. ...

 

[cyberjosh]

Now that is what I call great theological insight! :biglol

Ohh goodness my cheeks hurt from laughing so hard! Ok, back to the grind :whip

Haha. I couldn't resist. :D You'll have to show Vicky, er... I mean Vic this.

*I just know I'm in for a world of trouble*

 

[Mike]

Wha...? You mean.....? YOUR NAME ISN'T STEVE?! Jumping jeffbolts Batman..... his name isn't Steve.

:rolling Fantastic, Josh! This one must have wedged in while I was posting! :rolling

 

[cyberjosh]

:rolling Fantastic, Josh! This one must have wedged in while I was posting! :rolling

lol. I have my moments. :D

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Mike,
Sorry you thought I was ‘digging my heals in’ with my forwardness. I’m glad you know me, and that although I may come across forward at times, I’m not condemning. What I appreciate about our discussion is that I believe we both agree that Baptism plays a role in the Christian’s life toward salvation, and that it’s more than a physical act that we do, but rather something we participate in with Christ doing the ultimate work. Yes, it is a very spiritual event both for the one being brought into the Church, and for the Church who participates in the joy of a baptism as do the angels who are rejoicing in heaven! Where we differ, is who is to be baptized, and it is my position that baptism was originally intended for adults, not infants as we’ve been discussing.

As far as Baptism being a ritual, it is a ritual and it has it’s place in the Church as a whole. I’m not one that thinks the word ritual, or even tradition are bad words. Every denomination has it’s rites, rituals and traditions and saying otherwise just tells me that people don’t know they’re doing when doing them lol.

I also understand Ephesians 2:8 with it’s accompanied versed and find it ironic that people never post verse 10 as nobody want to misunderstand that we are saved by grace, so how dare we put any emphasis on verse 10 lest somebody think we’ve forgotten about verse 8, or fear we are trying to earn our salvation. Anyway, I don’t want to sidetrack us now, but I’ll ask you again a question that maybe you can answer. The text reads, “It is by grace through faith”, and we’ve already learned that through in greek is the word dia, and dia essentially means instrument. So we see that grace is through faith, or even, faith is the instrument which grace is delievered. The qeusetion is, “Who’s faith”? With due respect toward our Lord, the context in Ephesians 2 is speaking about Jesus and thus, this faith is the faith of Jesus because it is through the blood of Jesus that our sins are forgiven (Heb 9:14). As this relates to Baptism, it it through Jesus that God grants us grace, and as Paul writes in Romans 6 that we died with Christ, and we will also rise with Christ Amen!

But I would like you to read the verse below, and give me your thoughts. (You might want to read the whole chapter for reference so we don’t take it out of context.)
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The way I understand this from one point of view, is that Baptism does indeed save us by the resurection of Jesus (Echo’s of Romans 6:1-14), but we can see that there is also mention of a pledge of good conscience toward God, which I believe is the catalyst for God’s grace, and I’m left asking the same question that I’ve asked many times in this topic, and that question remains; how is an infant to X, and in this case, X = pledge with a good conscience toward God during it’s baptism?

I’m not saying that rituals are wrong Mike, actually I affirm the ritual of water baptism in accordance with 1 Peter 3:21 and many other scripures that affirm the ritual.

As far as you posting Psalm 51, I read that as a hyperbally. Have you ever read what else King David wrote in Psalm 139: 14
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be

Aside from that Mike, the age of accountability comes from the OT in many places, but mainly the Exodus event where the older generation was held accountable, and the younger generation was allowed to enter the promised land. That's another study in itself that maybe we can take up elsewhere at another time if that's ok with you.

The rest of what you’ve posted are good and we’ve discussed that topic many times on this forum. It was actually something I strugled with... I’d point you to Romans 2:14-16 for starters, and an emphasis on 2:5 where one stores up wrath for himself.
Hope this finds you well.

 

[Mike]

Jeff, it's been a month since you last posted, expecting my response. Well, my response was to go to the Lord earnestly on this and pray on this while studying the scripture provided to support the need to repent before being baptized. So...



We have baptisms during our worship services, and just this past Sunday, I was watching this couple, the infant's 2 sponsors, and I was watching them with scripture pounding my heart. And it all came rushing upon me with a revelation that this isn't right. The Lord can plant a seed of faith in anyone at any time. He doesn't need baptism to do this! Why rush this in now. I'd already believed that baptism isn't absolutely necessary, so why not wait until a person can repent, confess and receive baptism and consciously experience and participate in this extraordinary event?

It was very refreshing to talk this through with a few friends at church afterward. As I spoke my words to these people, a tremendous peace and excitement came over me! I didn't accept this easily. To that very day, I was searching and leaning toward my original stance. And in those few minutes, I truly felt that my prayers were answered. I never would have expected it at that point.

I hope no one, especially you, Jeff, feels awkwardness in that you feel like you talked me into rejecting theology I've known all my life. You're words were stirring, but His Word was piercing, and the Holy Spirit led me to that moment where (for this matter anyway) the veil was lifted.

Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! :amen