Baptism... Again?

[Elijah674]

This isn't about me. Someone asked me this, and I wanted to put it out there.

She was baptized as an infant - with water - in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, many years later, she is converting to another denomination, and they expressed the need to be baptized again! :o

With that, my feelings are clear. I would tell the pastor, no I wasn't aware of what was happening as an infant when I was baptized, but I was baptized. And God knew what was happening. There's no need to redo what was done. I was baptized and brought into the family of God. This is between myself and my God. If this is required to be a member here... have a nice life!

How do you feel? Do any of your churches require this of those baptized as infants?

Hi, 'i' suggest that the person had not been taught rightly! (my oppinion) Matt. 28:19-20.
My firm conviction of any being baptized had more than one reason. Which was not only about their commitment to Christ, but that this commitment was to be as a wittness to the world! LOOK, I HAVE A NEW MASTER! (Testimony!)
For me, I see it kind of like asking God to bless our food out in a publick place. (Luke 9:26)

And when believing in something totally different in doctrine? Such as the ones of Rev. 18:4??
Surely we would want the UNIVERSE to know that, huh? That we were NO LONGER PARTAKERS with that condemnation! That is even a Eternal Life or Death matter, is it not?

--Elijah

 

[handy]

This thread has been an interesting read, thanks to all who contributed!

My humble opinion on the matter of infant baptism is that it is one of the issues that in-depth, solid study of the scriptures just is not going to resolve.

I have seen all the texts, all the nuances of the texts, and all the arguments against the interpretations of texts from the opposing sides go round and round and round for about 30 years now....no resolution. Which isn't surprising because this issue has been unresolved in the church for centuries upon centuries. Sometimes we just gotta sit back and admit, there is no clear cut answer here!

I lean towards baptism of believers, but I fully understand why those who believe in infant baptism do so, and they do so out of their own sound exegesis.

So, again my own humble opinion is that while baptism itself is of utmost importance (unless you convert to Christianity right before you die, you need to be baptized!!!) I believe the method of baptism, all these methods that have acrimoniously divided brother against brother, really comes down to liberty. It is the faith, combined with God's word, combined with the water that makes our baptisms efficacious. Not whether or not one has been sprinkled, dunked or thrown into a hot tub!

Now, about the faith and the fact that infants cannot have faith: infants can be just as called by God as anyone else. John the Baptist certainly was, and Samuel was set aside for God's service even before he was born. So, just because an infant cannot articulate the faith that will later come to define him or her, doesn't mean that God is incapable of working faith within the heart.

So, if one was baptized an infant, like my eldest sister was, grew up to become a believer and recognized that God was faithful to the promises of their baptism, even when they were too young to remember it, giving them the gift of faith, that baptism was efficacious.

However, if one feels conviction that they did not live up to the promises made at their baptism when an infant, are too stained by sin, and desire a baptism as an adult, (this like my next to eldest sister and my brother) then by all means, be baptized again.

 

[Dusty]

So many interesting comments as I read through and I would just like to elaborate on the word " baptism " .

To me there are three distinct baptisms :

Three Baptisms

!..... Baptism into the Body of Christ..... And that is Salvation .......1 Cor 12 : 13. We are all baptized into one body and filled with the Holy Spirit when we are saved .Every believer receives the same amount of the Spirit Jews or Greeks, slave or free.... every believer receives as much Holy Spirit as there is to receive.... Col 2: 9-10...The presence of the Holy Spirit is what identifies us as believers "into one body"

2..... Water Baptism .....Romans 6 3-4....Baptism ( Name Tag)... Spiritual Truth... Identifies us with the community as a Christian representing spiritual truth. All of us who were baptized in water have been a representative of Death to self and sin and now alive in Christ.

3......Baptism in the Holy Spirit...... we receive power for service.... Acts 1:8.... we receive power in word and deed. we receive effectiveness in our Christian witness

" You will be my witness " Acts 2:4 All of them received Acts10:45-46 Acts 19:6

 

[stovebolts]

Jeff, sorry. I thought I did address it in my last post, but not as specifically as I could have.

Forgive me if I'm over simplistic, but I'm a simple person. :yes The way I interpret this and other verses that talk about people responding to the Gospel is that these are the people who can outwardly respond to it. You may feel this is a reach, but I don't. If I'm playing music for a group in my home where there are infants, everyone receives the stimulation. Capable people can respond, but does this mean that infants in the room are not impacted by the music? How much more can God stir the hearts of those infants? Can we say that it is beyond reason to believe that He could?

Sorry for the delay Mike.
If I'm a Christian living a good Christian life, then it's not only good news to me, but it's good news to everyone around me and everyone around me is impacted by it. For example, if one neighbor is a Muslim and the other an Athiest, how much better of a neighbor can I be to them, and the rest of my neighbors by living a Christian life? You see, when people see Christ in us, we bring light into their world. How much more for a child under your own roof?

In Eziekiel it states that every man is responsible for his own sins because we all have freewill to obey the gospel, or reject it. An infant isn't capable of knowing good from evil, thus isn't able to obey or disobey. But how much better to be brought up in a Christian home wouldn't you agree?

But going back to my devotion to Christ as being good news for the rest of the block on many different levels, and while it be true that I can have a postive, Christian influance on all of my neighbors, the sad reality is that not all of my neighbors will become Christians. Does this make sense?

I'm sure you'd say "of course He could" and you'd also say, "but would He?"

Consider this from Luke 1:
"39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."

And John had not yet been born!!! Could God stir such a response in the heart of an infant? I believe so. John, within the womb, responded to the presence of the Lord Who was also yet born.

John was also the Elijha and Jesus the Savior. Some are predestine for a purpose... But in terms of Baptism, we do not hear of Jesus being baptized until the start of his Ministry. Why do you think that is? Why is there no mention of Jesus being baptized as an infant?

This doesn't say that there were infants there, we agree. But I do believe this does address the ability of an infant to receive the seed of faith while in an apparently incapable state to do so. It might not convince you, but I believe it does speak to it.

I'll see you at the Coney Island in about an hour!!

We'll have to do Coney Island again for sure! I'll pick up the tab next time

Anyway, to answer your above response, please see my previous response I've posted once again below.

As far as Acts 16:33-34, we do see that the jailer and his household were baptized, but in the verse just above it we also see that the “Word of the Lord was spoken to them.” by both Paul and Silas. This implies that those being spoken to were able to understand. Hence, Paul also writes: Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I look forward to hearing your reply.

Have a great weekend.

 

[Mike]

So many interesting comments as I read through and I would just like to elaborate on the word " baptism " .

To me there are three distinct baptisms :

Three Baptisms

!..... Baptism into the Body of Christ..... And that is Salvation .......1 Cor 12 : 13. We are all baptized into one body and filled with the Holy Spirit when we are saved .Every believer receives the same amount of the Spirit Jews or Greeks, slave or free.... every believer receives as much Holy Spirit as there is to receive.... Col 2: 9-10...The presence of the Holy Spirit is what identifies us as believers "into one body"

2..... Water Baptism .....Romans 6 3-4....Baptism ( Name Tag)... Spiritual Truth... Identifies us with the community as a Christian representing spiritual truth. All of us who were baptized in water have been a representative of Death to self and sin and now alive in Christ.

3......Baptism in the Holy Spirit...... we receive power for service.... Acts 1:8.... we receive power in word and deed. we receive effectiveness in our Christian witness

" You will be my witness " Acts 2:4 All of them received Acts10:45-46 Acts 19:6

Dusty, can you elaborate on your elaboration? Are there 3 moments, 3 separate occasions when one is baptized in these 3 ways?

 

[Mike]

Darn, Jeff. I was sure my last post would have completely convinced you to see things my way. No?? :D

If I'm a Christian living a good Christian life

That's a big "if", but okay, continue...

, then it's not only good news to me, but it's good news to everyone around me and everyone around me is impacted by it. For example, if one neighbor is a Muslim and the other an Athiest, how much better of a neighbor can I be to them, and the rest of my neighbors by living a Christian life? You see, when people see Christ in us, we bring light into their world. How much more for a child under your own roof?

I agree completely, Jeff. Having a child living under your own roof would give you an opportunity to shine your faith and influence the child; much more opportunity than with your neighbors that you see less often. But, you can't reach into the depths of their hearts, and change them can you? You can't open up the heart of even the most conscious person for that matter, can you? Only by the power of the Lord, is the veil lifted and faith gifted. Would you agree?

In Eziekiel it states that every man is responsible for his own sins because we all have freewill to obey the gospel, or reject it. An infant isn't capable of knowing good from evil, thus isn't able to obey or disobey. But how much better to be brought up in a Christian home wouldn't you agree?

I'd agree that we all would do better being brought up in Christian homes. I'm just not sure I'm getting the real connection here, because I'm talking about God's ability to move the heart of an infant. You touched upon this, I suppose, in the opening paragraph, but there too, I didn't see anything that would dispute that John (as an unborn baby) had a quite amazing response to being in the presence of the Lord.

But going back to my devotion to Christ as being good news for the rest of the block on many different levels, and while it be true that I can have a postive, Christian influance on all of my neighbors, the sad reality is that not all of my neighbors will become Christians. Does this make sense?

It does make sense, but to my earlier point, I believe we have to differentiate between your influence and God's influence. I'm not sure this is a fair comparison. I believe you would agree that not all adults who are baptized go on to be faithful Christians. Some become apostates. Does this mean that they were never baptized?

John was also the Elijha and Jesus the Savior. Some are predestine for a purpose... But in terms of Baptism, we do not hear of Jesus being baptized until the start of his Ministry. Why do you think that is? Why is there no mention of Jesus being baptized as an infant?

Interesting. As you can see by the time stamp, it's gotten pretty late. I'll have to consider this and talk with my Adviser. Was anyone baptized before John began baptizing people in the Jordan? Looking back to the first page of this thread, my post about baptism being the circumcision of the heart. Baptism replaced circumcision so to speak, yes? It just has me thinking... Jesus was circumcised, right?

You've seen how I get late at night. I don't want to start rambling about something, now. If it's okay, I'll come back to this.

We'll have to do Coney Island again for sure! I'll pick up the tab next time

Yeah, I was meaning to say, I think next time we meet up, I'm in the mood for a quieter place to talk, more up-scale, ya know? :rolling

 

[Dusty]

Dusty, can you elaborate on your elaboration? Are there 3 moments, 3 separate occasions when one is baptized in these 3 ways?

!..... Baptism into the Body of Christ..... And that is Salvation .......1 Cor 12 : 13. We are all baptized into one body and filled with the Holy Spirit when we are saved .Every believer receives the same amount of the Spirit Jews or Greeks, slave or free.... every believer receives as much Holy Spirit as there is to receive.... Col 2: 9-10...The presence of the Holy Spirit is what identifies us as believers "into one body"

2..... Water Baptism .....Romans 6 3-4....Baptism ( Name Tag)... Spiritual Truth... Identifies us with the community as a Christian representing spiritual truth. All of us who were baptized in water have been a representative of Death to self and sin and now alive in Christ.

3......Baptism in the Holy Spirit...... we receive power for service.... Acts 1:8.... we receive power in word and deed. we receive effectiveness in our Christian witness


When we are born again we recieve the Holy Spirit ... right? Because Jesus told us after he assended to heaven He would send the Comforter , which is the Holy Spirit . So that to me means that when we are born again and are a new creation in Christ we are literally baptised in to the Body of Christ.

Then because we want to follow Him and denounce the things of the world we desire to proclaim our salvation by Water Baptism . We testify to the world that we are in the world but not of the world . We are sincere in our decision to deny ourselves , pick up our cross and follow Christ . We no longer want to do the things we did before but we want to please God in our actions and deeds . IN other words , we die to ourselves.

THe Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an infilling of the Holy Spirit and can be evident by the speaking in tongues . This is a gifting that enables us to be better witnesses .

There is so much to say about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that maybe I should start a new thread .

The Holy Spirit descended to empower the apostles of Jesus Christ. It was a moment and still is a moment when the apostles were empoured in the upper room . It is still significant today as we also can recieve the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to empower us for service .

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Pentecost fulfilled Jesus’ promise to send the Holy Spirit to empower the church so that we could be witnesses and evangelizing the gospel

I also believe that while the H. S. comes to transform and indell us when we become a believer there is also a need of an experience that Jesus referred to as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. . This is an experience of power for service for those who are already believers in Christ.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Definition of "Baptism"

"She was baptized as an infant - with water - in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, many years later, she is converting to another denomination, and they expressed the need to be baptized again!"

Not surprising. Baptists, for example, would require a person to have a "Believer's Baptism" (assuming that she's Christian now, and not just "Religious") in order to be taken into membership.

The Assemblies of God would receive her as a member without a "Believer's Baptism" on a profession of faith in Jesus as her savior. Their 6th fundamental belief under "ordinances" states:

Water Baptism:
The ordinance of baptism by immersion is commanded in the scriptures. All who repent
and believe on Christ as Savior and Lord are to be baptized. Thus they declare to the
world that they have died with Christ and that they also have been raised with Him to walk
in newness of life: (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 10:47, 48: Romans 6:4).

Methodists wouldn't care one way or the other as I recall.

BUT "RE-baptized" isn't the issue.

In fact she WASN'T "Baptized" in any way related to anything in the Bible about Baptism. She was subjected, as an infant, to a non-scriptural superstitious "ritual', which accomplished nothing "spiritually", and only made a certain portion of her anatomy marginally cleaner for a while, and provided a photo-op for the adoring relatives. The "ritual" didn't make her a "Child of God", or "bring her into the Family of God". It may have had some political ramifications in the denomination that performed the "ritual", but that's all.

My wife was baptized as a believer by immersion by our AoG Minister (Outside in Massachusetts in October), and was unable to join a Baptist church some years later for that reason. The Baptists demanded a she be baptized again BY A BAPTIST MINISTER. THAT would be a "Re-Baptism" since a scriptural Baptism had already been performed, and we were only playing "church politics". Since we were both out of the Catholic Heritage, we'd both had the Catholic "ritual" performed on us as infants.

IF she actually HAS, as she grew up, become a Christian at some point, then the BIBLICAL pattern would be for her to be baptized AS A BELIEVER. Simple as that.

In the AoG we would certainly ENCOURAGE her to be Baptized Biblically.

 

[Dusty]

You know we can look to all the differing denoninations on this subject but the bottom line is , we need to follow what the Holy Spirit is telling us not what people or doctrines are telling us .

I have to say that I was baptised in my teens , fell away from the Lord for many years , came back and the Holy Spirit kept tugging at my heart to be emersed and baptised again in order to develope a deeper relationship with Jesus .

So a few years ago , I went to Israel and got baptised in the River Jordon and you know what , I will never be the same . Now my Christian walk with Christ , increases every day and I can say .... He is sweeter than the day before . Bless His Holy Name .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

CORRECTION:

I said:

"The Assemblies of God would receive her as a member without a "Believer's Baptism" on a profession of faith in Jesus as her savior."

This was based on the statements in our constitution and by-laws laying out the "Pre-qualifications for membership" at DeSoto AoG. i.e. as of 10/17/10 which DID NOT call out "Believer's Baptism by immersion" as a requirement.

In today's Sunday school class the pastor indicated that one DOES have to be "Baptized as a believer" to qualify for church membership at our place. Since AoG Congregations are autonomous, I CAN'T say that's "universal" - but somebody who desired membership at our place WOULD need to be "Baptized as a believer".

I'm already re-writing the Church By-laws to cover that issue, so we're "covered" should the question arise.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Back in the day -

During the '70s, the "Charismatic Outpouring" was reaching ALL SORTS of "high Church", Liberal Church, and Catholic folks and bringing them into actual salvation for the first time. One typical feature of the "Jesus festivals" at the time were thousands of folks who'd been ritually "baptized" as infants in their denominational churches, requesting and receiving "Believer's Baptism" now that they actually WERE Saved, and Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I remember in '76 at Mercer, PA - they were baptizing in a horse pond, and the candidates would go into the water, be immersed, and had to cross the pond to the other side to get out because of the crush of folks desiring Scriptural baptism. it was a "muddy mess" - but nobody complained and the joy was everywhere. There were 5 or 6 ministers in the pond baptizing folks a quickly as they could.

 

[Mike]

!..... Baptism into the Body of Christ..... And that is Salvation .......1 Cor 12 : 13. We are all baptized into one body and filled with the Holy Spirit when we are saved .Every believer receives the same amount of the Spirit Jews or Greeks, slave or free.... every believer receives as much Holy Spirit as there is to receive.... Col 2: 9-10...The presence of the Holy Spirit is what identifies us as believers "into one body"

2..... Water Baptism .....Romans 6 3-4....Baptism ( Name Tag)... Spiritual Truth... Identifies us with the community as a Christian representing spiritual truth. All of us who were baptized in water have been a representative of Death to self and sin and now alive in Christ.

3......Baptism in the Holy Spirit...... we receive power for service.... Acts 1:8.... we receive power in word and deed. we receive effectiveness in our Christian witness

Dusty, thank you for expounding on your statement. I read your whole post and the others, but in the interest of saving space, I'll copy this part for the purpose of conversation.

Eph 4
"3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

Now, for the sake of focusing on the Christian baptism, I believe there is truly only one baptism that the Bible speaks to. And I'm speaking only of the single event in which we are cleansed and brought into the family of God. What I'm thinking is to agree with you to a point. In being brought to faith, we come to know the Lord, and this is very powerful. We're engulfed in His presence, and the veil is lifted. But I'm not sure we can call this a "baptism", though.

When we're baptized, we're baptized in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

I can only speak to what I believe, and have come to feel through scripture and in my heart. If I were to be "re-baptized", I would be feeling like I would be in effect, doubting the efficacy of the baptism and the promise of the Lord. I'm not sure I could possibly bring myself to be baptized again. I understand people can feel differently about this, so please take it for what it's worth. One person's opinion.

In fact she WASN'T "Baptized" in any way related to anything in the Bible about Baptism. She was subjected, as an infant, to a non-scriptural superstitious "ritual', which accomplished nothing "spiritually", and only made a certain portion of her anatomy marginally cleaner for a while, and provided a photo-op for the adoring relatives. The "ritual" didn't make her a "Child of God", or "bring her into the Family of God". It may have had some political ramifications in the denomination that performed the "ritual", but that's all.

Bob, I realize it's arduous to read through a longer thread when you're coming in at this point, so I can't blame you for jumping in where you were at. I'll ask you to please read my post #14 and consider what I wrote.

You spent a good part of your posts detailing what certain denominations do and believe about baptism, and that's to be understood given the title and OP of this thread. But, we quickly established that we need to understand the validity of infant baptism before moving on to the original question. That said, given that there is and has been a long-time disagreement on this, I feel there's a bit more to it than to simply say, as though it were matter-of-fact, that an infant baptism is not a baptism at all. I'm Lutheran. While there are significant differences between Lutherans and Catholics, we did carry with us many of the same practices into Protestantism; infant baptism being one of them.

Before you make a bold statement, not as your opinion, but as a matter of fact, I'll ask that you consider what I wrote in post #14, in coming to understand why we feel the way we do (those of us who believe in infant baptism). I think it's a bit harsh to say we participated in a "superstitious ritual". We feel we have valid reason to believe in the validity of infant baptism, and my posts focus more on the strong spiritual significance of this event in a new Christians life.

Just take care, is what I'm saying. We've had a great thread here with people who have opposing points of view presenting biblical scripture and reason to defend their understanding. Personally, I'd much like that level of cordial fellowship continue in a fruitful discussion. You had some great input. I don't want to make more of your post than you meant to say, but let's all understand that there will be disagreements among genuine Christians that don't have to divide us.

Thanks, Bob!!

 

[Dusty]

Thanks Mike for your explanation and I value and appreciate other's opinions . I do understand that each of us has been taught a little different and the bottom line is we all love the Lord and that's what matters the most . I am not one for bickering over things that do not affect our salvation . the most important part is that we follow the Word , pray and are guided by the Holy Spirit .

We all differ but as long as we are trusting and obeying what the Bible that is the most important aspect of our Chrisitan walk .

THe reason like I said that I got baptised again was because I had backsliden and was in the world for many years . I then felt the need to rededicate my life and follow Jesus by submitting all to Him and telling others that there was no turning back . I think in essence it was a confirmation to God and man that I would serve the Lord for the rest of my days.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

#14

I'm Lutheran. While there are significant differences between Lutherans and Catholics, we did carry with us many of the same practices into Protestantism; infant baptism being one of them.

In that case - further discussion is useless. I can't argue with "Tradition".

I'll agree to disagree, and drop out.

 

[stovebolts]

then it's not only good news to me, but it's good news to everyone around me and everyone around me is impacted by it. For example, if one neighbor is a Muslim and the other an Athiest, how much better of a neighbor can I be to them, and the rest of my neighbors by living a Christian life? You see, when people see Christ in us, we bring light into their world. How much more for a child under your own roof?

I agree completely, Jeff. Having a child living under your own roof would give you an opportunity to shine your faith and influence the child; much more opportunity than with your neighbors that you see less often. But, you can't reach into the depths of their hearts, and change them can you? You can't open up the heart of even the most conscious person for that matter, can you? Only by the power of the Lord, is the veil lifted and faith gifted. Would you agree?

Hi Mike,
My point is this, has anyone ever said anything to you that pierced your heart to the point you had a change of heart? Has somebody ever done something for you that you just sat back and said, "Wow...I can't believe there are people like that out there". Frankly Mike, God needs a body here on earth and that's part of what Ephesians 2:10 is about and btw, we are that body. (1 Cor 10:17, 1 Cor 12-14). When people look at us, they should see Christ in us wether they affirm it or not.
But to the question of your Children, we have a responsibility to them.
Deuteronomy 6:6 These words I am commanding you today must be kept in mind, 6:7 and you must teach them to your children and speak of them as you sit in your house, as you walk along the road, as you lie down, and as you get up. 6:8 You should tie them as a reminder on your forearm and fasten them as symbols on your forehead. 6:9 Inscribe them on the doorframes of your houses and gates.
The question is, are we living up to that responsibility? Even so, our children do have freewill, so they must make their own choice to follow the Lord once they grow up. Do you agree?

In Eziekiel it states that every man is responsible for his own sins because we all have freewill to obey the gospel, or reject it. An infant isn't capable of knowing good from evil, thus isn't able to obey or disobey. But how much better to be brought up in a Christian home wouldn't you agree?

I'm just not sure I'm getting the real connection here, because I'm talking about God's ability to move the heart of an infant. You touched upon this, I suppose, in the opening paragraph, but there too, I didn't see anything that would dispute that John (as an unborn baby) had a quite amazing response to being in the presence of the Lord.

Mike, I'm not denying God's ability to move an infants heart. My reference to Eziekiel is simply a point on every man being responsible for their own sins. While I agree that we are born with a sin nature, I also believe that since an infant doesn't know sin, much like the sacrafices given for the unknown sins of the people, Christ's blood is sufficient for them.

But in terms of Baptism, we do not hear of Jesus being baptized until the start of his Ministry. Why do you think that is? Why is there no mention of Jesus being baptized as an infant?

Looking back to the first page of this thread, my post about baptism being the circumcision of the heart. Baptism replaced circumcision so to speak, yes? It just has me thinking... Jesus was circumcised, right?

Yes, Jesus would have been circumcised on the 8th day. That's a given. But he wasn't baptised until he started his Ministry, but even then, we see the spirit of God coming down on him (Mt. 3:16). Some say he was 30? But I'm glad you brought this up because Circumsision was given to Abraham to physically mark out his decendents by rolling back the flesh that His seed would be known among the nations. But Moses, who was given the law spoke much about another type of Circumsision.
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.
Who is Moses speaking to? I do not believe he is speaking to the children.
And again:
Detueronomy 30: 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

It's about the heart... It's always been about the heart and not a ritual brought about by human hands. Paul puts it this way in his letter to the Colossians.

Colossians 3:11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

In terms of infant baptism as it relates to religion, I found this writing profound.
Colossians 3:16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.

Rituals do not save...

Colossians 3:11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

The key word above is, "Your Faith". (See Hebrews 11 on the faith we are speaking about) An infant does not proclaim Jesus as Lord, so how would baptism benifit a child?... Is it possible that when we turn baptism into a mere ritual, no matter how good our theology sounds, it simply become meaningless which accounts for why you say that some become apostate?... Do they really or is it that they never had a circumsission of the heart once they grew up? If this is so, then can we honestly say that as an infant they experienced the baptism Paul writes about above?

Perhaps we view the innocents of children differently? For the record, I believe ALL infants and children are not accountable for their sins and the blood of Jesus covers them.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Dusty,
Thanks for sharing your testimony, I appreciated it.

It's funny, because I didn't come from a Christian home, but Dad and step Mom thought it was good to have the Mormons over, so they shipped us off to church when I was 12 and to my surprise, they made me get dunked under duress. It was a horrible experience.

I spent my 13th through 16th birthday under state care :D That's a nice way to say Juvenile and other assorted state governed facilities. It was the best thing for me, and they had some genuine Christians that came in and one befriended me and truly brought me to Christ. When I accepted Jesus as my savior, I knew I was saved and I loved the Lord with all my heart. I can't tell you how many times I read the gospels and the story of Jesus. But something was missing, and I couldn't put my finger on it.

Ron Mize, my Baptist brother in Christ and I were talking about this piece that I was missing one day and he told me the next step was to be baptized. I shuddered as I recalled my 'other' experience and said, "NO". He just smiled and said, "Here are some scriptures to look at." Pray about this and ask God to guide you.

I read the part in Acts where 3,000 were added to the chuch upon baptism, and I knew that's the part I was missing... I was missing my true family, the Church. Ron somehow got me out of Juvenile for an hour and arranged to use the baptistry at some church that I could see though my cell window, and I knew that when I was being baptized, it was a commitment, a covenant that would never be broken. I would be added to the Church, Jesus would never leave or foresake me. It was a done deal, never to be undone.

As I came out of the water, I could feel the Holy Spirit moving within me, cleansing me and the first words I heard were from Ron as he said, "All of your sins have been forgiven and you're a new creature in Christ." Me, the kid who hated his parents, a thief, a liar.. the kid who put a small business out of business when I robbed it etc. All those sins and many more.. Poof, forgiven. I felt I had a new lease on life and suddenly, I had purpose.

Years later I too backslide and though an event in my life, I even cursed God. I was angry and full of rage. Seeking resolution, I even joined the church of $cientology for a bit.

When I came back to Christ, I was told I needed to be baptized. I didn't understand that because I had already been baptized. But they insisted (conservative church of Christ) that I wasn't baptized with the Baptism of Jesus. They even called Ron to rebuke my baptism. Not knowing, I submitted to their request since they were the elders. Honestly, it caused great doubt in my walk with Jesus as I struggled with this for weeks. Through a series of events in my life, everything that ever held value had been stripped from me, now the one event that changed my life radically was also being stripped and seeds of doubt were sown.

Fearing my eternal salvation, and wanting to be an example to my step kids, I submitted to being baptized.. but honestly, I just got wet.

We ended up moving and submitted membership with another church of Christ and when the preacher came to talk to us, I told him this story and told him I denounced the baptism I had recieved from the church of Christ. The ball was in his court... He smiled and affirmed my baptism when I was a teen, and I've been studying baptism every since.

I've also studied the Lord's Supper, and what I've found, is that even when we backslide, part of the Lord's Supper can be, and is a re-dedication to the Lord.

Now, I don't know you're story and I don't know you're heart. Only God does. But I would feel safe to say that upon your two baptisms, one of them was just getting wet while the other was a comittment for life. But regardless, when you falter, and you will.. we all do... We have the Lord's Supper to re-dedicate ourselves to Christ as we celebrate his death, burial and resurection in remberance of what He's done for us.

Don't know why I was compelled to write all that....

 

[Dusty]

Now, I don't know you're story and I don't know you're heart. Only God does. But I would feel safe to say that upon your two baptisms, one of them was just getting wet while the other was a comittment for life. But regardless, when you falter, and you will.. we all do... We have the Lord's Supper to re-dedicate ourselves to Christ as we celebrate his death, burial and resurection in remberance of what He's done for us.

Don't know why I was compelled to write all that....

Thank you StoveBolts for your response .

Yes every one has a story and mine is very long but I praise and thank the Lord for restoration .

No one presured me to be baptised again . I believe it was the Holy Spirit who tugged at my heart strings.

You are probably right about the " getting wet " part and maybe in my teens , I was not fully understanding the baptism and the dedication and that is why I felt the need to be re - baptised . Not only that , I had always hoped to go to Israel and when God provided a way , that is when the baptism became so important in my life and wanting to get baptised in the River Jordan was so special .

I know it probably would have been special at home as well but when I went under and came up it was as if heaven opened it's windows and I visualized my Saviour being baptised there . It was as if I had been sealed with approval from Jesus Himself . It is really hard to explain the whole event.

Yes , the Lord's Supper is important and I never really thought of it the way you presented it .Each time when we partake , of course we must search our hearts before partaking and asking Christ if there be something that is not pleasing to Him in our lives so as to ask for forgiveness .

 

[stovebolts]

Well thank you my brother in Christ, Dusty, for sharing with us, and may God bless you and the work of your hands. The words you use to describe your baptism ring true in my own cherished recollection.
Grace and Peace.

 

[Dusty]

Well thank you my brother in Christ, Dusty, for sharing with us, and may God bless you and the work of your hands. The words you use to describe your baptism ring true in my own cherished recollection.
.Grace and Peace.

Actually .... I am a sister in Christ.... ;) Blessings.

 

[Mike]

Dusty, I made the same false assumption when I first met you. The only "Dusty" that comes to mind for me is Martin Short in "The Three Amigo's". You might want to go to your profile and fill in the "Gender" box, unless you don't care.

Folks, I haven't checked out of this thread. Weighing it all, and keeping an open heart to the Word. :yes