Baptism Doesn't Save You.

[Imagican]

Once again, this subject revolves around TWO Baptisms. There was the Baptism of John, and there IS the Baptism of Christ. One was a simple admittance of sins. The other was a 'cleansing through The Spirit'.

That the churches and many that follow THEM have run into confusion over the two is not that surprising.

Even John recognized that his Baptism and the one offered by 'Him to come', were DIFFERENT. That he simply Baptized with water, but Him that was to come would Baptize with FIRE and THE HOLY GHOST. These are words offered by John HIMSELF.

When one is Baptized in water, does this MEAN that they are Baptized in Spirit?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[duval]

Hi Minnesota

I was referring to spiritual matters of course, NOT baking cakes etc.

 

[duval]

Hi Imagician

It cannot be proved by scripture ( or any other means) that we are baptized in the Spirit today.

 

[Imagican]

Hi Imagician

It cannot be proved by scripture ( or any other means) that we are baptized in the Spirit today.

Well then, I guess there's no proof of Salvation today then. For without 'rebirth' there is NO seeing the kingdom of heaven. And the 'rebirth' that MATTERS is Spiritual NOT physical. The anointing mentioned IS Spiritual Baptism.

What do you propose duval? that simply being dipped or dripped upon is able to bring about Spiritual Baptism?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[duval]

Hi IMAGICIAN

I agree, without re-birth there is no salvation. I assume you were referring to Jn.3. If so, how do you understand such was a baptism of the Spirit?

 

[Imagican]

I don't know what exactly it is that you wish for me to say. But I will offer this: HOW one is 'born again' is a difficult one for ME to say. Some insist that they WERE 'born again' upon their 'water Baptism'. This was NOT the case with me. At what actual MOMENT I became 'born again' I cannot say with certainty. It is almost as if it was accomplished in 'stages'. And there are STILL times that I feel that there are EVEN more stages that I have not yet obtained.

I can not say what is truth for ALL so far as Baptism is concerned. I ONLY know what it has meant to ME. And I know that 'water Baptism' may well have played NO PART whatsoever in 'my Salvation'.

And not only 'myself', but what I have witnessed in others. It would SEEM that IF one were 'born again' upon being dunked in water, then ALL that HAD been 'dunked in water' would have OBTAINED THE SAME THING. I have NOT witnessed this to BE the case however. I have witnessed MANY that have been Baptized in water that don't even understand the BASIC concept of LOVE. How could this BE? How could one BE 'born again' and not even have an understanding of the BASIC principles taught by Christ?

Upon what MOMENT I became 'Spiritually born again' I cannot say as stated previous. But that The Spirit HAS been ABLE to 'change my heart' is without ANY doubt of mine own.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[duval]

Certainly if one has not repented being baptized may certainly be termed a "dunking" but Bible baptism itself should not be sarcastically called "dunked".

God bless

 

[RobertMazar]

Correct that Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation. The more logical belief concerning Baptism is that Baptism(Infant and Adult) is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus.
:shades

 

[francisdesales]

Correct that Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation. The more logical belief concerning Baptism is that Baptism(Infant and Adult) is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus.
:shades

How is one saved?

 

[RobertMazar]

Correct that Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation. The more logical belief concerning Baptism is that Baptism(Infant and Adult) is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus.
:shades

How is one saved?

One is saved by praying to Jesus and asking Him to come into ones heart and cleanse one of all sins and become ones Savior, which is basically what Romans 10:9-10 states. Baptism, the Sacraments and church membership are all totally superfluous to salvation.
:shades

 

[duval]

I always understood being saved included belief in Jesus as the Christ, repentance of our sins, confessing that Jesus is the Christ and being buried in baptism for the remission of sins. Unless this is done with all the heart there can be no salvation. Why take only one or two commands for salvation and leave onr or two out.

Infant baptism so called is no baptism at all for at least 3 reasons. First, baptism is for the believer and the infant cannot believe. Second, baptism is for the penetent believer and the infant cannot repent and third baptism is a burial and sprinkling and pouring is that used for the infant.

"search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have life" said Jesus. I shall be most happy to discuss the scriptures involved in the above.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

Correct that Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation. The more logical belief concerning Baptism is that Baptism(Infant and Adult) is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus.
:shades

How is one saved?

One is saved by praying to Jesus and asking Him to come into ones heart and cleanse one of all sins and become ones Savior, which is basically what Romans 10:9-10 states. Baptism, the Sacraments and church membership are all totally superfluous to salvation.
:shades

Really? Romans 10:9-10 "basically" says that?

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

Where is the part about "coming into one's heart" or "cleansing one of all sins", or "become one's savior"??? Could you please give me some Scriptures that actually cite what you state for "being saved"?

What is interesting is that some commentators see these verses refering to the liturgical BAPTISMAL proclamation of the early Church.

Regards

 

[Paidion]

Let's read an account of how Christians practised baptism in the early 100s (A.D.) Justin Martyr, a Christian philosopher wrote to the emperor of Rome and to the whole Roman people, an apology (explanation) of the ways of Christians. His hope was that when the Romans really understood Christians they would cease to persecute them for the sole reason that they went by the name "Christian". Justin was born in 110 A.D. and died in 165 A.D. Here is his description of Christian baptism in the days in which he lived.

Justin Martyr's Apology, chapter 61

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God at the time we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Isaiah the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from yourselves; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.â€Â

And for this [baptism] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of
ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone... And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is
illuminated is washed.

 

[Guest]

I was referring to spiritual matters of course, NOT baking cakes etc.

Is the canon closed?

 

[kingdavid]

you have to understand that you have water baptism and you have the baptism of the Holy Ghost. the scripture says we are born by water, blood, and Spirit. justificatio, santification, and baptism of the holy ghost.


water baptism doesn't save by itself but according to peter in act's 2:38 it is the door to receive the baptism of the holy ghost. it is the holy ghost baptism that saves you.

 

[AnnieHere]

Correct that Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation. The more logical belief concerning Baptism is that Baptism(Infant and Adult) is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus.
:shades

How is one saved?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
-Eph.2:8-9

"[It is] good that [a man] should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord."
-Lam. 3:26

Being baptized is a work that we do; it can never take away sin. Christ already chose all those He planned to save from the foundation of the world.

 

[francisdesales]

Being baptized is a work that we do; it can never take away sin. Christ already chose all those He planned to save from the foundation of the world.[/b]

"Christ" already chose? Where is the Scriptures for that, please...

God desires ALL men to be saved. If He "picks and chooses" before they are even born, then He does not desire all men to be saved. You misunderstand Scriptures.

Being baptized is a work of God, my friend. No one baptizes themselves. Didn't you pay attention at your catechism classes? It is through baptism that we are buried with Christ. (see Romans 6:2-6) Without Christ, you aren't saved. Does the Bible suggest another means of being saved, then by uniting oneself to Christ? Unless you are born from above through water and the Spirit (baptism)...

Regards

 

[AnnieHere]

Being baptized is a work that we do; it can never take away sin. Christ already chose all those He planned to save from the foundation of the world.[/b]

"Christ" already chose? Where is the Scriptures for that, please...

God desires ALL men to be saved. If He "picks and chooses" before they are even born, then He does not desire all men to be saved. You misunderstand Scriptures.

Being baptized is a work of God, my friend. No one baptizes themselves. Didn't you pay attention at your catechism classes? It is through baptism that we are buried with Christ. (see Romans 6:2-6) Without Christ, you aren't saved. Does the Bible suggest another means of being saved, then by uniting oneself to Christ? Unless you are born from above through water and the Spirit (baptism)...

Regards

Seriously, you need to study God's Word.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, " Eph. 1:4-5

God does not desire ALL men to be saved. Where have you seen this in the Bible?

Catechism classes?

Truth is found only in the Bible... not a religious catechism, confession or creed!

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. " -2Tim. 3:16-17

Your religious beliefs contradict the truth found in God's Word, my friend. You must study the Bible for truth... not a catechism.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. " -2Tim. 2:15

 

[francisdesales]

"Christ" already chose? Where is the Scriptures for that, please...

God desires ALL men to be saved. If He "picks and chooses" before they are even born, then He does not desire all men to be saved. You misunderstand Scriptures.

Being baptized is a work of God, my friend. No one baptizes themselves. Didn't you pay attention at your catechism classes? It is through baptism that we are buried with Christ. (see Romans 6:2-6) Without Christ, you aren't saved. Does the Bible suggest another means of being saved, then by uniting oneself to Christ? Unless you are born from above through water and the Spirit (baptism)...

Regards

Seriously, you need to study God's Word.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, " Eph. 1:4-5

Annie, you are making a mistake here, no doubt because of the false teachings you follow that force you to read the above the way you do...

It says God predestined us to be His adopted children. Not that Jesus would chose who would go to heaven and be saved...

The JEWS were God's "adopted children", as well. Will all Jews go to heaven as a result? Would you like the pertinent Bible verses?

Entering the Church, being a child of God, is only the first step in inheriting eternal salvation. One must persevere until the end. We must have faith working in love.

You are presuming that once a child of God, you will enter heaven automatically. That makes a LOT of the Bible superfluous, don't you think? All that talk about obeying the commandments, obeying God, love, etc... All would be pointless if God picks and chooses and we do nothing.

God does not desire ALL men to be saved. Where have you seen this in the Bible?

I need to study the Bible??? Annie, the Lord loves mankind - why would He not desire that we all be saved??? He didn't send His only Son to die for a handful of people...

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4 ESV

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth 1 Tim 2:4 KJV

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?...For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Ez 18: 23, 32 KJV

Catechism classes?

You claimed to have went to Catholic school for what, 10 years? Didn't you learn anything there?

Truth is found only in the Bible...

Baloney. Where does the Bible discuss the Great Wall of China or the cure for small pox? How about space travel or microbiology? The Bible is not the "only" place to find the truth...

Furthermore, the Catechism and the Creed are Biblically based.

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. -2Tim. 3:16-17

Nothing about the ONLY source of truth, Annie. This is the most misapplied verse in Scriptures, no doubt, leading so many men and women into false teachings.

Of course it is PROFITABLE. So is fasting and alms-giving. But so is the Church that you left...

He {Christ} gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ Eph 4:11-13

Down falls the tradition of men, sola scriptura...

Your religious beliefs contradict the truth found in God's Word, my friend. You must study the Bible for truth... not a catechism.

I am here to tell you, Annie, that not one person on this forum in the long time I have been here has proven that any solemnly defined teaching of the Catholic Church is wrong. Lots of people THINK they know what they are talking about, but when they decide to go against the pillar and foundation of the Truth (according to the Bible), they inevitably fall short.

God is calling you back. Do not turn away from Him.

Regards

 

[kton16]

Acts 2:38
Clearly states we must be baptized. Theif on the cross, Jesus was still on the Earth therefore we couldn't recieve the holy spirit. Mark 16:17 States also that those that believe in speaks in new tounges and cast out demons. Believe doesn't mean what it means in english. The Greek writer wasn't trying to say that. The new testement is Greek.