What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Baptism in Heb 6:1

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

dan p

Member
Hi to all . I know that this book is very hard to understand .

1) Just the first verse is hard for many .

2) Therefore FORSAKING ( gk KATALEOPE ) the principles of the teachings of MESSIAH ( Christ ) let us go on to maturity ; not laying again the foundation of REPENTANCE from dead WORKS , and of FAITH toward God .

3) And FORSAKING the teaching of BAPTISMS .

4) Try to explain this AWAY , huh ?

5) The whole context of Hebrews is Jewish . Just look at Heb 5: 12-14 is telling those that believe in water DULL of hearing v11 .

6) v12 says that you need to be taught again the first principles of the written word of God which is the LAW of Moses .

7) Because you ALL are milk DRINKERS

8) FOR THOSE THAT drink MILK are UN-skillful in the word of righteousness

9) You all BABES in Christ

10) v14 can NOT discern both GOOD and EVIL and that what the word says .
 
dan p said:
Hi to all . I know that this book is very hard to understand .

1) Just the first verse is hard for many .

2) Therefore FORSAKING ( gk KATALEOPE ) the principles of the teachings of MESSIAH ( Christ ) let us go on to maturity ; not laying again the foundation of REPENTANCE from dead WORKS , and of FAITH toward God .

3) And FORSAKING the teaching of BAPTISMS .

4) Try to explain this AWAY , huh ?

5) The whole context of Hebrews is Jewish . Just look at Heb 5: 12-14 is telling those that believe in water DULL of hearing v11 .
Click to expand...

Where? Where is water mentioned in Hebrews 5?

The author is speaking of the Old Testament rituals and laws, which later, the author tells us cannot clear the worshippers' good conscience - while the New Covenant does. Baptism is not mentioned as part of the OT Law. Anywhere. Can you show me a verse from the Torah that tells us that men must be baptized? When does Moses perform Baptisms?

So how could Hebrews 5 be speaking of Baptism? It speaks of sacrificing sheep and the washing of pots, OT laws that the Jews were bound to observe until the Old Law was abrogated with the death of Christ on the cross.

You are mistaken. Perhaps you should consider that the teachings of baptism is right up there with the teachings on the resurrection and eternal judgment. Sounds kind of important, maybe you should listen up.

dan p said:
Because you ALL are milk DRINKERS
Click to expand...

Milk does a body good...

:coolsmile

Makes my teeth white, too...
 
The reference to baptism indicates that it is among the first things we should be doing as believers. To leave these things, means to progress past them, but not to do away with them...that would be contrary to the Word of God. Jesus told us to go unto all nations making disciples and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all things as I have commanded you. Matthew 28:18-20 No, that would contradict what Jesus has instructed His disciples to do.

The exhortation to leave the basic things behind is like being able to read words, but still unable to comprehend their meaning. We don't need to go back to the Alphabet, which is only one component of reading, in order to learn the art of comprehension. No, now it's just time to go on and let proficiency come in the very practice of reading...which will naturally cause us to improve and to learn more about the meanings of the words. God want's us to progress past those basic teachings to go on to perfection. Perfection comes through obedience and the outworking of God's love in us. The more we trust Him at His Word, the more we follow Him, the more we love Him and others, the more fruit we bear. Those who don't progress, do not bear fruit, and are in danger of withering away.

As believer's we should be growing, and not get caught up in vain disputes about these basic principals, but we should be moving on to having God's love perfected in us through our obedience to Him. When we lack maturity, we get hung up on the letter of the law (Never really practicing true heart obedience as one resting in Christ's righteousness.) while failing to obey the spirit of the law...doing all things in Christ with love, grace, and mercy toward all. I believe that this is relevant today as well, as we can never get enough of discussing the different aspects of baptism, but we always seem to forget the idea of being crucified with Christ , living no more as our self, but allowing Christ to live in us.

Just my thoughts.

The Lord bless you.
 
While I do believe a new Christian should be Baptized, I also do not believe it is a necessary to Salvation.

BUT! Hebrews 6:1 is speaking of the old Jewish custom of washings, not the Baptism of John to repentance. That was unknown at the time of John, and why so many rushed to him, the Jews were always glad to find another ritual.

So before floating ducks on a pond, just make sure they are ducks. :)
 
Hi Samuel , I have to disagree with you for the followings reasons ;

1) Please notice that in Jofn 1: 25 , that you are not the Christ ( or Messiah ) why baptizest thou then .

2) They did not ask what Baptism meant ? Or the mode that John used ?

3) In Matt 11: 13 , John was the last of the Old Testament prophets and the Law prophesied until John , so baptism was know and practiced as will be shown .

4) Turn to Heb 9: , the context is Old Covenant , v1 WHICH stood v10 , in only in MEAT ( offerings ) and DRINK ( offerings ) and diver ( various ) WASHING ( Greek word Baptimos which is translated BAPTISMS ) so why do some says that it was not used in the Old Testament ?

5) Baptisms are WASHINGS and is the same word used in Heb 6:2

6) Hebrews is Old Covenant as Heb 9 says and to say that it is not speaking about John Baptism isn't so .

7) Are you saying that we, today are saved by Grace ( Eph 2:8-10 ) + NOTHING or by John's Baptism ?
 
The Old Testament Washings (baptisms), were for cleansing's, not repentance from sin. 6:1 was an encouragement to leave all the old testament teachings, concerning these things. Which was becoming a stumbling block to some, and move on to maturity.
 
I agree Samuel and I do believe believers have the same problem today with water baptism which by the way is a dead work; they have the same problem the Hebrews did by clinging to the ordinances that was in the law.

Things never seem to change with human nature and rationalizing God's word with the carnal mind.

Tomlane
 
Most of the problems today are believers discovering Strongs, and other Greek dictionaries. Not understanding the fundamentals of proper translation, get things messed up. A single word may have many interpretations, but knowing how to use it in context is for translators, not simple believers.

Read the Bible, learn something about Hebrew customs, and religious practices, and you will be a lot better for it.
 
dan p said:
7) Are you saying that we, today are saved by Grace ( Eph 2:8-10 ) + NOTHING or by John's Baptism ?
Click to expand...

How do we receive that Grace? Through the work of Christ on the cross, correct?

And how are we connected to that work on the cross?

By baptism...

How can we who died to sin yet live in it? Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. Romans 6:2-6

If you aren't baptized, you are not connected to our Lord's death and resurrection and the old self continues in sin.

Regards
 
If you aren't baptized, you are not connected to our Lord's death and resurrection and the old self continues in sin.
Click to expand...
That's a little stringent, don't you think so Joe? What about those who for whatever reason can't be baptized? Do you think Jesus' baptism (which was unnecessary) would cover those who cannot get baptized?

I think God is big enough to make any connection. :amen
 
To those who consider Water Baptism of importance. You might do well to study these verses. Then decide which! baptism you desire, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or that of John. Since there is only one choice, I take that of the Holy Spirit. :)

1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph:2:16: And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph:4:4: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph:4:5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Now I have to go finish reading DEUTERONOMY. :)
 
I was never water baptized, {Thank the Lord} and I'm born again and have received blessing all my life from the Lord. Some I dare not tell about as most would not believe the supernatural things God has done in my life that has saved me once from nervous breakdown and from being beaten to death with numb chucks in a mugging. :clap

And I'm convinced all that I have good in my life comes from the Lord and not from any dead works that my flesh could do.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phil 3:2-3 (KJV)

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth [b]righteousness without works,[/b]
Romans 4:5-6 (KJV)

People still stumble at the stumbling block for the Lord has made it all so simple they are blinded and their ears are stopped up. If salvation and walking correctly after salvation and we needed to interpret what God has already given us, then we all would have an excuse but not one will. It is not up to man's carnal mind to interpret scripture but with if we come to the Lord as a child, no nothing then we will receive God's simple message of justification by faith and we will rightly divide his word by putting our trust in the Holy Spirit to teach us the deeper things of God and not trust to our own understanding as so many here have suggested.

Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Prov 3:3-6 (KJV)

I do believe the misunderstanding of God's word to a great extent comes from well meaning people who want to intemperate God's word to fit their belief system or fit in with their denomination.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.
Romans 9:32 (KJV)

Tomlane
 
Hi Tomlane , I was working on Acts 10 and it kicked me out , but most of the posts so far they have NOT answered the OP and will try again tomorrow , and one thing that they miss is the Context . I just do not have time today as is 6 PM in L. A. and have to go home .
 
dan p said:
Hi Tomlane , I was working on Acts 10 and it kicked me out , but most of the posts so far they have NOT answered the OP and will try again tomorrow , and one thing that they miss is the Context . I just do not have time today as is 6 PM in L. A. and have to go home .
Click to expand...

Hi Dan, am looking forward to tomorrow to see what you have.

Tomlane
 
vic C. said:
francisdesales said:
If you aren't baptized, you are not connected to our Lord's death and resurrection and the old self continues in sin.
Click to expand...

That's a little stringent, don't you think so Joe? What about those who for whatever reason can't be baptized? Do you think Jesus' baptism (which was unnecessary) would cover those who cannot get baptized?

I think God is big enough to make any connection. :amen
Click to expand...

Vic,

You have seen me defend the teaching that God is not bound by His sacraments. That God does not condemn the ignorant, such as those in the Americas during the 1200's before the Church came to preach the Gospel - or BEFORE the Christ came. Certainly, the Holy Spirit blows where He wills, and many have even accused me of Universal Reconcilliation (which is not what I believe).

The "if you are not baptized..." refers to the singular person, Tomlane, who is OUTRIGHT REJECTING the teachings of the Gospel, even after it is amply explained. He has Scriptures, he has access to correct teachings. However, he refuses to hear the Church. And what does Jesus tell us to do with such a person in Matthew 18:16-18?

As you know, God is beyond all of us - and we cannot say who will be saved. However, the Scriptures do not look kindly on those who REJECT the Lord and His teachings. My "you" is singularly directed at the person who rejects what the Bible clearly tells us about the "ORDINARY" necessity of being baptized. We should pray for those who do reject the Lord's teachings that they may accept His Word into their hearts.

Regards
 
samuel said:
To those who consider Water Baptism of importance. You might do well to study these verses. Then decide which! baptism you desire, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or that of John. Since there is only one choice, I take that of the Holy Spirit. :)
Click to expand...

We aren't talking about the water baptism of John, but the water/Spirit baptism given by Christ's Apostles as commanded by Him just before He ascended to the Father. You present a false dichotomy where none exists, since the water is the visible sign by which the Spirit comes to the newly born child of God.

samuel said:
Now I have to go finish reading DEUTERONOMY. :)
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should read Acts 9-10 for a refresher on how water baptism is united to baptism in the Spirit... The two are combined, the visible with the invisible. OF COURSE there is only ONE baptism: By water AND the Spirit. John 3:5

Regards
 
I think it is interesting to note the definition sacrament is not found in scripture but in fact is breed by the false churches of this world, the doctrines of men only.

Here is the definition of sacrament

Sacrament: A formal religious ceremony conferring a specific grace on those who receive it; the two Protestant ceremonies are baptism and the Lord's Supper; in the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church there are seven traditional rites accepted as instituted by Jesus: baptism and confirmation and Holy Eucharist and penance and holy orders and matrimony and extreme unction

Amazing how men can add the confusion already perpetrated by the god of this world.

Lets see, words not instituted by Christ; sacraments, water baptism for salvation, Eucharistic liturgy, Holy Eucharist, Holy Sacrament, Liturgy, sacrament of the Eucharist. {Note: John's ceremonial water baptism for repentence is found but no such thing as salvation by water baptism}

A lot of fancy words of man's vain imagination that are not found in scripture.

Hebrews 13:9 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

1 Timothy 4:1-4 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Colossians 2:20-23 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

A believer is made complete in Christ for everything he or she needs to honor Christ and walk in His word without deferring to outdated Jewish Ordinances.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {thoroughly furnished with every thing a believer needs to please God from day one except for wisdom and that we have to seek out in God's word by rightly dividing.}
***

Tomlane
 
Communion is not the private domain of the Catholic Church. MANY non-Catholic churches practice Communion. In the non-denominational Church I attended in Salt Lake City, Calvary Chapel of SLC, we too partook of Communion. The words " This do in remembrance of me" were carved into the table for all to see. And we practice Communion in the non-denominational church I attend today.
The Christian bishop I met while in Salt Lake who helped me SO much in my walk with Christ also teaches Communion. He never flaunted his position and rarely wore his collar but only during official events. He too is non-denominational.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

"this do in remembrance of me"
"Man" did not say that. Christ himself did.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top