Baptism in Heb 6:1

[sonlite101]

Salvation is a very subjective experience-- simply because faith is subjective-- regardless of people who say otherwise. I know that I have been born again of God’s Spirit because His Spirit has witnessed to my heart that I am His. Romans 8:16 Therefore, I am very secure in the knowledge of who I am in Christ.

It appears that you are contradicting yourself. First, you say salvation is subjective, depending upon the emotions and feelings of the recipient of salvation. I do not find such ideas in Scriptures. Salvation is certain, which you then say at the end of your post here. There is no subjectivity about it. The forgiveness of sins is CERTAIN, otherwise, we become scrupulous and question whether our salvation "took". Such ideas do not lead to security and peaceful hope, but rather, dissension and disquiet.

Regards

Let me answer your post this way Francis:

First when I used the word subjective I didn’t say anything about emotions or feelings. You added those words. Not that there is anything wrong with emotions or feelings per se, but I used the word subjective in the sense of my salvation, and everybody else’s for that matter, as being “personal†and “internalâ€Â--a spiritual transaction between God and me.

Since my salvation is personal and internal, just like my faith, I disregard anyone’s assertion that I am not saved because I haven’t complied with or because I do not believe in their standards. My saved status is between God and me.

You, however, are very sure that those who do not go through with the water baptism rite are unsaved. Tell me Francis, how do you know? You are not able to see their hearts? You are not able to see whether their spirit has been made a new spirit by God?

Now, on the other hand, I do know you have been forgiven of all your sins Francis. How do I know? Well, not because you were baptized in water as an infant, but because Jesus washed you clean on the Cross along with everybody else. You see, the water someone sprinkled on you was a totally unnecessary act for the purpose of salvation. Christ had already cleansed you. You were born forgiven. This is the good news of the Cross.

However, salvation is more than just the forgiveness of sins. There is more to salvation; there is more good news. God offers the new birth in His Spirit and eternal life to those who will believe on His Son--there are no works involved. Have you been born again of His Spirit Francis?

If you were to tell me you have, all I could do would be to take you at your word. Salvation is personal and internal so I could not dispute your word.

Secondly, even though your comments appear to indicate that you believe in a works salvation, I still would not be able to say that you are not saved. Why? Because I am not God, and I am not you. Your salvation status is between God and you.

I pray that you have received the witness of the Holy Spirit to your heart that you are His. The Lord bless you!

sonlite101

 

[Rick W]

How do I know I love my wife? How do I prove I love her to someone who is absolutely certain that I could not?

 

[sonlite101]

How do I know I love my wife? How do I prove I love her to someone who is absolutely certain that I could not?

Hi Rick!

You present a different analogy or comparison here. For sure you need to show your spouse that you truly love her by doing what she asks you to do. Otherwise there might be ----- to pay.

But surely, you are not suggesting that in regards to our salvation we have to prove anything to anybody but our God. If you definitely believe in salvation by grace through faith you know that the only thing required under the New Covenant is for us to believe in the Son of God.

Now, if I have given anyone here the impression that I am for doing away with water baptism, communion, and all the other symbolic ceremonies that are practiced by congregations, let me assure you I am not. I participate in some of them from time to time.

But I do not assign these ceremonies properties they do not have as some others who practice them religiously do. And not only that, but then they doubt others' eternal status because we don't believe as they do.

sonlite101

 

[Rick W]

lol
OK. When am I going learn that no analogy is ever correct.
No offense to you sonlite101.

 

[francisdesales]

Let me answer your post this way Francis:

First when I used the word subjective I didn’t say anything about emotions or feelings. You added those words. Not that there is anything wrong with emotions or feelings per se, but I used the word subjective in the sense of my salvation, and everybody else’s for that matter, as being “personal†and “internalâ€Â--a spiritual transaction between God and me.

While there is a component of a personal relationship regarding salvation in Scriptures, the majority of Scriptures speak more of salvation as a community-wide act. God's People are saved, Christ is mankind's representative, discussions about the elect as a community, the Church, Israel, etc...

When Scriptures speak of a person being forgiven of sins and freed from the power of sin and evil, of being saved, there is no subjectivity whatsoever. It is certain and not subject to subjectivity (sorry!) We have RECEIVED the first installment of the Spirit - it is certain.

What we hope for is eternal heaven. What is "uncertain" is whether we will utilize that salvation to enter heaven. And I think that is where we are talking past each other.

Since my salvation is personal and internal, just like my faith, I disregard anyone’s assertion that I am not saved because I haven’t complied with or because I do not believe in their standards. My saved status is between God and me.

I think you need to define salvation, since you say it is personal and internal. You appear to be using it in a way that is unscriptural. Salvation is either an event in the past, where we first enter into communion with Christ through Baptism, or something in the future, of being saved to heaven. However, I am not familiar with the useage of salvation being applied to the INDIVIDUAL'S walk with Christ today. That appears to be called justification or sanctification in Scriptures. Can you provide examples of this?

You, however, are very sure that those who do not go through with the water baptism rite are unsaved. Tell me Francis, how do you know? You are not able to see their hearts? You are not able to see whether their spirit has been made a new spirit by God?

You are incorrect, I didn't say that "those who do not go through the water baptism rite are unsaved". I said those who REJECT water baptism are rejecting Christ. Now, whether God decides to save you anyway (since your 'salvation' is personal and internal) is beyond my judgment. However, the Scriptures clearly say that one who rejects the Apostles rejects Christ and what they bind Christians to is bound in heaven. They taught the necessity of baptism. Ordinarily. But if one is ignorant of baptism and what it does, no doubt God takes that into account.

As to "you are not able to see their hearts", I would answer that we ALL are self-deluded in some manner. If your salvation can be latter questioned - even by yourself, HOW DO YOU KNOW the Spirit is even abiding in you to begin with today??? That is the question I previously posed. If you can question your own subjective salvation/faith next month, how do you even know you EVER had it to begin with? Isn't that the response by those who look at the "subjective internal" as their sign of the Spirit's presence? If one falls away, isn't that the response - "oh, he never was saved to begin with..."?

I think this is the main reason why God has given His Church a sacramental system - so we would have visible signs of His work within us. We have been sealed and we know it.

Now, whether we take advantage of that seal, we can only hope and persevere. But we DO know we were at one time just in God's eyes. There is no question, it is entirely objective and does not depend upon our opinions, feelings, intellect, or anything else within us.

Now, on the other hand, I do know you have been forgiven of all your sins Francis. How do I know? Well, not because you were baptized in water as an infant, but because Jesus washed you clean on the Cross along with everybody else.

Romans 6:2-6.

Baptism is the HOW we are washed in Christ's blood!

You see, the water someone sprinkled on you was a totally unnecessary act for the purpose of salvation. Christ had already cleansed you. You were born forgiven. This is the good news of the Cross.

A strange thing to propose, since Christ COMMANDED it just before He left to the Father. In addition, it is the first thing Peter told the nascent community that would become converted after Pentacost. To be baptised AND receive the Holy Spirit. Did Christ command us to do any other "unnecessary acts" to enter the Kingdom (John 3:5)???

EVERYONE would understand what baptism was in this crowd of Acts 2: to be dunked in water. In addition, Peter says they would receive God's Spirit!!! This was MORE than John's baptism. Something that has the power to transform, something the OLD Covenant sacraments could not do. (Heb 9). The good news is the power of the cross, and we are connected to that power via Baptism. People understood that God would come to man through the sign of water, since water affects what happens in the spiritual world - washing of sins.

However, salvation is more than just the forgiveness of sins. There is more to salvation; there is more good news. God offers the new birth in His Spirit and eternal life to those who will believe on His Son--there are no works involved. Have you been born again of His Spirit Francis?

If you mean we do not have to obey, love, hope, have faith, etc, to receive eternal life, you are wrong. If you mean we cannot earn salvation by our OWN works, without God, then I agree. No one can enter heaven without loving his neighbor and God.

Have I been born "FROM ABOVE" (the Greek adverb allows either interpretation, but Jesus clearly rules out by context "AGAIN" by telling Nicodemus of the two ways of being born)? Of course, I was baptized long time ago. The fruits of that work, the seed that was planted, have grown since then.

If you were to tell me you have, all I could do would be to take you at your word. Salvation is personal and internal so I could not dispute your word.

If salvation was based on opinion, you'd be correct. However, salvation is from above, not self-generated. Wishful thinking, no matter how ardent, does not save. God saves. Thus, personal opinions and feelings play little part in determining one's standing with God. As I said, self-delusion is strong in all of us on some matters, especially in religious matters. WE often think we are in a better standing with God than we actually are. WE think we are correct and everyone else is wrong. Often, people refuse to hear an difference of opinion because they think they are right, based on their "subjective opinions". However, the Church is not built upon personal opinions and feelings. It is built upon something OUTSIDE of ourselves. This is why I am somewhat skeptical on such self-proclamations. I am not judging your position with God, but questioning how you "KNOW", since God does not make it crystal clear our position with Him by ONLY examining our own hearts...

Secondly, even though your comments appear to indicate that you believe in a works salvation, I still would not be able to say that you are not saved. Why? Because I am not God, and I am not you. Your salvation status is between God and you.

To a degree, you are correct, I must work out my salvation in fear and trembling. You don't do it for me. However, the overwhelming sense of Scriptures is that salvation is NOT JUST between you and God, but between God and His community. Old and New Covenants both are between God and His People as a unity. There is very little sense of someone coming to God OUTSIDE of the Body. It is only becoming PART of the Body, ONE, that one is rescued from sin. The question is whether you are part of this community or not. Everyone who is an active member of that spiritual community is part of the elect and will be saved. Salvation is rarely a "men and God" concept in Scriptures. We pray for others. The Spirit works within the entire entity, the community. When Paul says "you have been saved", he is refering to the entire community as a whole, not each man individually apart from the other. The Spirit gives gifts for the sake of the Body, not just one cell. When one part suffers, the REST suffer with it, and when glorified, the REST is glorified. The Spirit inhabits the Church as a Temple, as ONE building. And on and on.

We view salvation more as a community affair, since we see ourselves as God's family. We help each other get to heaven by the gifts the Spirit gives us for the sake of the ENTIRE Body. Thus, your rugged individualism and sole focus on "me and Jesus" is an incomplete picture of the Good News. It is anachronistic, based upon Western culture of today. Christ, the New Adam, is mankind's representative, and WE form ONE man going to God in Christ. One Body, not millions of detached cells going to the Father.

I pray that you have received the witness of the Holy Spirit to your heart that you are His. The Lord bless you!

[/quote][/quote]

I pray that the Spirit enlightens you to the necessity of being baptized in water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ obeyed the Father and was baptized, even if He didn't need to. Why be different then our Savior? Is this an act of humble submission to the Lord?

I also thank you for you trying to explain your point of view. I am trying to form a mindset on what leads a person to think as you.

Regards

 

[Rick W]

Joe,
You're looking for an outward sign, admission of baptism or other earthly requirements fulfilled, to make a decision on someone else's claim of salvation. We all know Christ said that His own testimony of Himself alone didn't prove Him to be true. We on this forum are exactly in the same boat.
However, in real life, on the other side of the keyboard, things are different. We have people who knew us before and after in friends, family, co-workers etc that can indeed testify something changed to the degree that we are no longer who we once were.
Now I understand there are those who can fake it believing they are leading a Gospel-driven life but oftentimes just talking to that person face-to-face can confirm or reject that claim. Again an act of real life and not just words typed in a textbox from who knows who.

 

[sonlite101]

I apologize for not responding to your post in a timely manner francis. A medical emergency that has lasted for a few days has prevented me from doing any posting. Will try to do so soon.

sonlite101

 

[francisdesales]

Joe,
You're looking for an outward sign, admission of baptism or other earthly requirements fulfilled, to make a decision on someone else's claim of salvation.

Rick

I am not judging some else's decision on whether they are "saved" or not. I cannot possibly know that, since even Catholics admit that the Spirit is not bound by the sacrament of Baptism. I am judging someone's argument that the Bible claims that water and the Spirit are not necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This has left the realm of "exception to the rule" to "the rule".

I realize that the Spirit blows where He wills and that God is not bound by the sacrament. However, ordinarily, that is God's means of bringing about our spiritual birth, through water and the Spirit. If God chooses to enlighten someone a different way, that is not my argument, for I agree He can and does. My argument is with those who DENY that God says one should seek out this baptism, when they know of it.

So far, the argument is fallacious at best. Basically, to me, it sounds hypocritical to say "The Spirit is within me", but "I don't have to follow the Words of Christ, to be born from above by water and the Spirit" IF one was truly abiding in Christ, they would seek it out. I see this among the people I teach. They seek out Christ and attempt to obey His Word, rather than propose that THEY are the exception and the sacrament doesn't apply to them.

Sounds like they are defending their own lifestyle rather than the Word of God, to which we are to SUBMIT to.

However, in real life, on the other side of the keyboard, things are different. We have people who knew us before and after in friends, family, co-workers etc that can indeed testify something changed to the degree that we are no longer who we once were.

I agree that the Spirit can and does come to these people. But if true, why aren't they seeking out this command to become born from above by water and the Spirit? At what point does ignorance (acceptable) become obstinancy (not acceptable)?

Now I understand there are those who can fake it believing they are leading a Gospel-driven life but oftentimes just talking to that person face-to-face can confirm or reject that claim. Again an act of real life and not just words typed in a textbox from who knows who.

Yes, you are right, typing words says little about who we really are. Communication is based on more than the words we type, but also includes our postures, our non-verbal cues, our inflections, and so forth. Perhaps I would get along swimmingly with "Tomlane" face to face. I do try, but am not always successful, to separate the teaching from the individual. We are told to love our neighbor and hate the sin. This is not always easy to do on this sort of forum.

Take care, brother.

Joe

 

[sonlite101]

I think you need to define salvation, since you say it is personal and internal. You appear to be using it in a way that is unscriptural. Salvation is either an event in the past, where we first enter into communion with Christ through Baptism, or something in the future, of being saved to heaven. However, I am not familiar with the useage of salvation being applied to the INDIVIDUAL'S walk with Christ today. That appears to be called justification or sanctification in Scriptures. Can you provide examples of this?

Thought I’d primarily address your comments on salvation Francis since we each have a somewhat different understanding of how God executes it.

First though, I see from your other comments that you understand my emphasis on our salvation being “individual and internal†as meaning that I have no use for the community of believers or for fellowshipping or even participating in symbolic ceremonies within the body of Christ. This is not the case. I interact and fellowship with the Body of Christ but this did not bring about my salvation. I am able to commune and fellowship with the Body because I have been saved--individually--by the Spirit of God.

About your question “what is salvation?†This is what I see in the scriptures:

Salvation has several components or stages.

First: the cleansing from sin for all mankind. This is a PAST EVENT executed by Christ on the Cross for every man ever born. This was a collective event. It happened to all mankind at the same time. This first stage MUST be followed by the second stage in order for a person to be saved. Lev 16:30, Acts Chaps 10 & 11, Rom 5:12, 2 Cor 5:18-19, Heb 9:12

Second: the birth of the Spirit, executed by God for each person who comes to Christ by faith.
This is a one-time event that happens to each believer individually and seals a believer’s entrance into the Kingdom of God. John 3: 3-8, Rom 8:9, 1, Eph 4:30, Jon 5:11-12.

I would suggest that you take a look at the way that Christ offered the gift of the Spirit, in other words the new birth, to the Samaritan woman in John Chap 4:10. Jesus said in effect: "Just ask me."

The next stages in the process of salvation that are inevitable for a believer who has been born again of God‘s Spirit are: sanctification/setting apart of the believer by the Holy Spirit here on earth; resurrection of the believers and their being clothed with a spiritual imperishable body at Christ‘s second coming; and eternal life with Christ in “heaven†afterwards.

As for examples that salvation for each individual is a personal relationship or walk with God, there are numerous examples in the scriptures of this. Just look at the accounts of the individual encounters with God that Abraham, David, the prophets, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, etc., had with the Lord.

beacon2

 

[francisdesales]

Thought I’d primarily address your comments on salvation Francis since we each have a somewhat different understanding of how God executes it.

First though, I see from your other comments that you understand my emphasis on our salvation being “individual and internal†as meaning that I have no use for the community of believers or for fellowshipping or even participating in symbolic ceremonies within the body of Christ. This is not the case. I interact and fellowship with the Body of Christ but this did not bring about my salvation. I am able to commune and fellowship with the Body because I have been saved--individually--by the Spirit of God.

It seems no one is saved outside of the visible Church community, when we read Scriptures. I am sure God can and does, but they are the exceptions. I think there is too much "me and Jesus", when Scriptures very rarely presents that sort of relationship. I think Paul only mentions "personal salvation" one time in Galatians, I believe. I am not denying that we are to have a personal relationship, but it is always within the context of the community, since public worship as part of the Body is much more meaningful, in Scriptures. I am just pointing out an apparent unbalanced emphasis that I detected.

About your question “what is salvation?†This is what I see in the scriptures:

Salvation has several components or stages.

First: the cleansing from sin for all mankind. This is a PAST EVENT executed by Christ on the Cross for every man ever born. This was a collective event. It happened to all mankind at the same time. This first stage MUST be followed by the second stage in order for a person to be saved. Lev 16:30, Acts Chaps 10 & 11, Rom 5:12, 2 Cor 5:18-19, Heb 9:12

agree.

Second: the birth of the Spirit, executed by God for each person who comes to Christ by faith.
This is a one-time event that happens to each believer individually and seals a believer’s entrance into the Kingdom of God. John 3: 3-8, Rom 8:9, 1, Eph 4:30, Jon 5:11-12.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding? The birth of the Spirit within us occurs in step one above, is that what you are saying? That is when we are given our new life in Christ, when we are washed free of sin at Baptism. Not sure why you would separate these two components of that past event when we are born from above. We, by faith, receive God's forgiveness that you mention in step one.

I would suggest that you take a look at the way that Christ offered the gift of the Spirit, in other words the new birth, to the Samaritan woman in John Chap 4:10. Jesus said in effect: "Just ask me."

We do indeed "just ask".

The next stages in the process of salvation that are inevitable for a believer who has been born again of God‘s Spirit are: sanctification/setting apart of the believer by the Holy Spirit here on earth; resurrection of the believers and their being clothed with a spiritual imperishable body at Christ‘s second coming; and eternal life with Christ in “heaven†afterwards.

As for examples that salvation for each individual is a personal relationship or walk with God, there are numerous examples in the scriptures of this. Just look at the accounts of the individual encounters with God that Abraham, David, the prophets, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, etc., had with the Lord.

Yes, as I said, salvation has an individual component. However, I believe many people focus on this without considering that God saves us within a community. A People. It is belonging to this people that saves us - we are not saved apart from it. Thus, Christ is called the Second Adam, mankind's representative. We are Christ's Body as cells of one Body, not individual organisms apart from each other. Paul in 1 Corinthians makes an interesting observation that I think many Christians overlook:

And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 1 Cor 12:21-27

I think our American attitude gets in the way of our call by Christ to be a member of the community and to recall that we are indeed intimately linked with each member of the Body.

I am merely calling for a more Scriptural balance, that our relationship with Christ INCLUDES our relationship with each other. We do not go to Christ without our brothers and sisters.

Regards

 

[sonlite101]

About your question “what is salvation?†This is what I see in the scriptures:

Salvation has several components or stages.

First: the cleansing from sin for all mankind. This is a PAST EVENT executed by Christ on the Cross for every man ever born. This was a collective event. It happened to all mankind at the same time. This first stage MUST be followed by the second stage in order for a person to be saved. Lev 16:30, Acts Chaps 10 & 11, Rom 5:12, 2 Cor 5:18-19, Heb 9:12

agree.

Second: the birth of the Spirit, executed by God for each person who comes to Christ by faith.
This is a one-time event that happens to each believer individually and seals a believer’s entrance into the Kingdom of God. John 3: 3-8, Rom 8:9, 1, Eph 4:30, Jon 5:11-12.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding? The birth of the Spirit within us occurs in step one above, is that what you are saying? That is when we are given our new life in Christ, when we are washed free of sin at Baptism. Not sure why you would separate these two components of that past event when we are born from above. We, by faith, receive God's forgiveness that you mention in step one.

Regards

No that is not what I meant Francis. What I said was that the birth of the Spirit occurs in the second stage of salvation.

The first step or stage of our salvation was the washing and cleansing for sin plus the payment of the penalty for sin that the blood of Christ accomplished for all men. As a result of the Cross, all men went through this first stage of salvation collectively just like the Israelite community did during the Mosaic atonement that foreshadowed the Cross.

Something to point out here is that Christ's actions on the Cross brought the First Covenant to its final conclusion. God had not exacted payment (the penalty) and men had not been cleansed for sins committed under this covenant until Christ came. Rom 3:25 puts it this way:

25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- (NIV)

Christ's actions having brought the First Covenant to a close, we then, individually if we believe, go through the second stage of salvation, the birth of the Spirit, under the New Covenant of Grace. Under this new covenant, God births us of His Spirit through faith in His Son--the only stipulation or requirement under the New Covenant. God exchanges our sinful spirit of Adam for the Spirit of Christ during the second stage.

The above process of salvation is evident in the Samaritan woman passage. Notice that Christ immediately asked her to avail herself of the second stage of salvation by asking Him for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why? Because He was going to take care of the first stage--the forgiveness of her sins and her penalty for those sins.

sonlite101

 

[francisdesales]

Christ's actions having brought the First Covenant to a close, we then, individually if we believe, go through the second stage of salvation, the birth of the Spirit, under the New Covenant of Grace. Under this new covenant, God births us of His Spirit through faith in His Son--the only stipulation or requirement under the New Covenant. God exchanges our sinful spirit of Adam for the Spirit of Christ during the second stage.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your take on the "first stage". It implies universal redemption, a situation where all men have been forgiven of sins - which means that no one will go to hell and eternal punishment.

I agree that Christ OFFERS redemption universally to all men, but until they accept this offer BY calling upon God for forgiveness, that particular man has not gone through the "first stage".

God calls upon men to repent and believe the Good News. That is not a call to receive the Holy Spirit with the idea that all sins have already been forgiven. The call is to ask God to forgive - and He will forgive. The Good News is that forgiveness is freely given to those who ask.

The above process of salvation is evident in the Samaritan woman passage. Notice that Christ immediately asked her to avail herself of the second stage of salvation by asking Him for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why? Because He was going to take care of the first stage--the forgiveness of her sins and her penalty for those sins.

You are adding something that is not there. There is no mention of this "first stage", that He was going to pay the penalty for all sins.

Regards

 

[sonlite101]

Christ's actions having brought the First Covenant to a close, we then, individually if we believe, go through the second stage of salvation, the birth of the Spirit, under the New Covenant of Grace. Under this new covenant, God births us of His Spirit through faith in His Son--the only stipulation or requirement under the New Covenant. God exchanges our sinful spirit of Adam for the Spirit of Christ during the second stage.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your take on the "first stage". It implies universal redemption, a situation where all men have been forgiven of sins - which means that no one will go to hell and eternal punishment.

I agree that Christ OFFERS redemption universally to all men, but until they accept this offer BY calling upon God for forgiveness, that particular man has not gone through the "first stage".

God calls upon men to repent and believe the Good News. That is not a call to receive the Holy Spirit with the idea that all sins have already been forgiven. The call is to ask God to forgive - and He will forgive. The Good News is that forgiveness is freely given to those who ask.

No, the first stage does not imply universal redemption. IT IS universal redemption from sin. This cleansing had to happen first in order for God to then offer men the gift of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant. This new covenant has only one stipulation and that is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ--the one He has sent. Nothing else.

This is why the gospel is Good News. It is a proclamation that Christ has already done it all in regards to the forgiveness of sins and the payment for the penalty for sin. Where the offer comes in is in offering eternal life and the new birth to those who will believe on the Son.

Heb 9:12
12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, HAVING OBTAINED eternal redemption. (NIV)

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
(NIV)

The above process of salvation is evident in the Samaritan woman passage. Notice that Christ immediately asked her to avail herself of the second stage of salvation by asking Him for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why? Because He was going to take care of the first stage--the forgiveness of her sins and her penalty for those sins.

You are adding something that is not there. There is no mention of this "first stage", that He was going to pay the penalty for all sins.

Regards

That is exactly my point Francis--the fact that Christ did not mention to the Samaritan woman that she had to do anything, i.e., ask for forgiveness, repent, be baptized in water, etc.. etc. Why? Because all of that would have been totally useless. For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, and Christ was the only one who could wash away her sins with His own blood.

I suggest you and I agree to disagree for the time being on what constitutes the gospel of our Lord and let the Holy Spirit continue the work of illuminating our minds to His Truth. We have His promise that He will bring us into all truth.

The Lord bless you!
sonlite101

 

[francisdesales]

No, the first stage does not imply universal redemption. IT IS universal redemption from sin. This cleansing had to happen first in order for God to then offer men the gift of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant.

I see. So Christ's death on the cross gives universal redemption to all men, so NO ONE will be going to hell. I just do not see that concept in Scriptures. Hell is for the devil and his angels and those men who choose to reject God's offer of redemption. Redemption is offered, not automatically presumed given to every living man on the face of the earth.

This is why the gospel is Good News. It is a proclamation that Christ has already done it all in regards to the forgiveness of sins and the payment for the penalty for sin. Where the offer comes in is in offering eternal life and the new birth to those who will believe on the Son.

If Christ's work is DONE, then why does He continue to intercede for mankind???
If Christ's work is DONE, then why did He establish a Church to continue to spread the Gospel, presuming that Christ's work of redemption was already given to mankind?
If Christ's work is DONE, then why does Jesus give the Apostle the authority to forgive sins, AFTER the resurrection???

Oh, I could go on. Christ's work is not done, my friend. Far from it. His work on the cross is done. But that doesn't mean that He is done working, since His work is to do the Father's will. That will is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Neither of that is "done" yet.

Heb 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, HAVING OBTAINED eternal redemption. (NIV)

He has obtained redemption to men, and He disburses this to men as they repent. Thus, there is no need to re-sacrifice for future generations of men. One sacrifice and its value is applied to a man as he asks Christ for the forgiveness of God.

Thus, Hebrews ALSO says that Christ CONTINUES to intercede for man...

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
(NIV)

This is spoken to a Jewish crowd that did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. For the Jews, the work that God required was to believe that the Christ had been sent.

the fact that Christ did not mention to the Samaritan woman that she had to do anything, i.e., ask for forgiveness, repent, be baptized in water, etc.. etc. Why? Because all of that would have been totally useless. For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, and Christ was the only one who could wash away her sins with His own blood.

And it is by baptism that we are joined to the blood of Christ.

Romans 6:2-3...

I suggest you and I agree to disagree for the time being on what constitutes the gospel of our Lord and let the Holy Spirit continue the work of illuminating our minds to His Truth. We have His promise that He will bring us into all truth.

The Lord bless you!

And you as well.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


We are forced to accept ONE of two possible answers to this scripture:

1. The foundation mentioned was ONLY a 'beginning' and we are to GO BEYOND with the knowledge that has NOW been supplied.

2. Those that are Baptized, or those that have been offered a 'glimpse' of the truth ARE able to 'turn away' and it is IMPOSSIBLE to 'crucify Christ' ANEW, (an indication that we are given but ONE chance and if we do NOT succeed in this ONE chance, we are DOOMED with the inability to be 'washed again'.

I believe what Paul is offering is that the water Baptisms, laying on of hands, raising the dead, etc............these 'works' were done for a purpose and a TIME. Once BOTH were completed, they were of no validity any longer.

Since we KNOW that God is patient and righteous, it would be FOOLISH to believe that we can ONLY be forgiven ONCE. That we are only able to come to repentance ONCE. Therefore, it would seem that here we witness Paul offering that the foundation HAS BEEN LAID and we are to TRANSEND the meager beginnings of Salvation and GO ON to seek perfection in God's love, OUR LOVE, towards Him and our neighbors.

I read earlier that someone offered that we are to follow what was taught by Christ to His desciples. I think that there is confusion OFTENTIMES concerning the DIFFERENCE between desciple and apostle. There IS a difference. The deciples were empowered to DO certain things to FORM the Church. These 'things' were COMPLETED. Therefore, there ARE things written of for our benefit in faith that are NO LONGER valid so far as WE are concerned. They HAPPENED, do you BELIEVE IT? But these powers were for a PURPOSE which has long since been fulfilled.

Walking on water, raising the dead, turning water into wine, feeding thousands from a few fish, transfiguration, there are MANY things that Christ DID in order to convince those in His presence of His identity. Some of this power was given to a SELECT group of His followers known as APOSTLES. And there was a REASON for this empowerment.

Does anyone state that they have witnessed those that are able to walk on water? How about raising the dead? Anyone accomplished that one lately? Water into wine? Or how about the feeding of thousands with a few fish?

No one has a problem accepting that these miracles were for a purpose and are no longer being performed. It's ONLY those that CANNOT be definitely refuted that many seem to 'hang on to'. Is there ANY difference with this and water Baptism? A ritual of the physical that has been insisted upon being supernatural. Insisted upon by the religious 'powers' in control for centuries and ONLY able to be performed BY THEM.

God knows what's in our hearts. God is able to DO that which He CHOOSES to do so long as it does NOT contradict His very essence. He forgives WHO and for what PURPOSES He chooses.

To listen to those that would insist upon 'water Baptism' is like listening to someone 'laying down the law' as if there are THINGS that WE must DO in order to receive God's LOVE. That sounds like a form of 'control' to me. Control implimented by MEN in order to CONTROL other men. God doesn't WORK this way.

Christ came to FULFILL the LAW. It is COMPLETE, (do you know what fulfill means?). We are no longer able to cover our sins with the murder of innocent animals or the shedding of their blood. We are no longer able to offer up OUR OWN sacrifices to receive forgiveness.

Christ fulfilled such LAW in that HE IS the one true sacrifice, made ONCE and for ALL TIME, that is able to cleanse us and separate us from our sins.

Understanding this, HOW can ANYONE believe that ANYTHING we can DO physically is able to DO anything so far as The Spirit is concerned. Wives tales and fantasy play NO PART in the truth. Is is pure and simple. God has not attempted to TRICK mankind with 'hoodoo holy stuff'. He has offered us instruction as pure and simple as can be. Some will understand and others WILL NOT. Due to their own 'hardening of their hearts' and perhaps due to influences beyond their control, but the simple matter is; some are able and some aren't.

But trying to teach and have others follow that simply being 'dunked in water' and some 'holy words' being uttered is ABLE to 'save them' is so childish in it's inference that there is LITTLE wonder that Paul made such statements commanding them to GROW UP.

Blessings,

MEC