Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Baptized by Holy Spirit
- Thread starter shad
- Start date
Free said:
Free,
I have talked many, many tongue speaking Christians, they seem to believe they are more spritual then others who don't speak in tongues. There are too many bad withnesses involved in speaking in tongues. We should test the spirit if they are of God or not. According to Jesus it is not of God if it does not produce godly fruit. I haven't yet witnessed any godly fruit in tongue speaking churches and their people. Their bad witnesses are so obvious.
Cornelius said:
Nowhere in the Bible does it mention people "speaking in tongues" like you understand it.
There are only three examples of people speaking in tongues, and in only one case is the nature of their language actually mentioned (Acts). In those examples, the people speaking in tongues were speaking real languages of the diverse world. They were NOT babbling an incoherent "angelic language". That's what tongues boils down to. Every time Paul mentions "speaking in a tongue", it applies to the issue of people who speak different languages.
Cornelius said:
there you go:
Matthew 11:20
[ Woe on Unrepentant Cities ] Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
Matthew 11:21
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matthew 18:7
"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!
Matthew 23:1
[ Seven Woes ] Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:16
"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
Matthew 23:23
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesâ€â€mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawâ€â€justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Matthew 23:25
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Matthew 23:27
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
Matthew 23:29
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
Mark 14:21
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
Luke 6:17
[ Blessings and Woes ] He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon,
Luke 6:24
"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Luke 6:25
Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.
Luke 6:26
Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
Luke 10:13
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luke 11:37
[ Six Woes ] When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table.
Luke 11:42
"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
Luke 11:43
"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.
Luke 11:44
"Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."
Luke 11:46
Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
Luke 11:47
"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them.
Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."
Luke 17:1
[ Sin, Faith, Duty ] Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.
Luke 22:22
The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him."
1 Corinthians 9:16
Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
Jude 1:11
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
Revelation 8:13
As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"
Revelation 9:12
The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.
Revelation 11:14
The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: " 'Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!'
Revelation 18:16
and cry out: " 'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: " 'Woe! Woe, O great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
I am sorry, I fail to see the generalization in these Scriptures. Jesus is addressing very specific groups in all. But this is not the tread for this. You may open one if you want to talk about this further.
I think that I have used most (not all) of the scriptures, about tongues. I do not want to study tongues AND talk about the fruit of Christians that have offended you. There are certain rules in the Bible that tells us what to do when people have bad fruit, or sin against you. You should follow those steps and sort out anything between you.You are not allowed to walk with a grudge.Either forgive them or go and sort it out.
I do not want to convince anybody about tongues. I am however deeply aware of what the Bible says about it. We , as the church, need to go before God with these issues, because obviously God did not write about these things , just so that we can have an interesting talk about it on a forum.
blessings
C
I think that I have used most (not all) of the scriptures, about tongues. I do not want to study tongues AND talk about the fruit of Christians that have offended you. There are certain rules in the Bible that tells us what to do when people have bad fruit, or sin against you. You should follow those steps and sort out anything between you.You are not allowed to walk with a grudge.Either forgive them or go and sort it out.
I do not want to convince anybody about tongues. I am however deeply aware of what the Bible says about it. We , as the church, need to go before God with these issues, because obviously God did not write about these things , just so that we can have an interesting talk about it on a forum.
blessings
C
I
Imagican
Guest
Free said:
Have you ever personally WITNESSED a 'usage' of tongues that WAS authentic?
MEC
Cornelius said:
So do I. It is about the group of people who are practicing speaking in tongues.
This is about Baptism of Holy Spirits and those people are claiming that tongue is the only way of obtaining the Holy Spirit.
I am trying to prove you are using the Scripture wrongfully because I am convinced that practice of tongue in the churches are disgracing God and Jesus. Most of all, they are misleading, confusing and being stumbling block to weak and new believers.
We can always use the Scriptures wrongfully.
Vic C.
Member
You didn't take what I said about the use of "and" over "or' and you surely didn't accept the post by Mondar right after mine. Understanding the common use of the language in the first century and to realize tongues were for a specific group and for a specific reason and maybe not for what you and others claim today are valid points that need to be considered.
The point is; I'm not trying to make a point. I'm asking for some Bible conformation that is related and consistent to the belief you hold. I do not need to bear the burden of proof in this case. After all, if we are to examine such a doctrine that has implications that could possibly affect the hows and whys of the Spirit indwelling in a believer, I believe you should be able to do it systematically.
You should be able to string verses and passages together that belong together; there should be little or no room for assumptions or presumptions and it should be proven that it is for the believer today as well as when it was written.
I have nothing else to add at this time.
Well, sure, but you are equating bad fruit with one spiritual gift to say that that gift is false. But that is bad logic. It could just be, and likely is, just all around bad teaching that is resulting in bad fruit and it may have nothing at all to do with people speaking in tongues.
Free said:
You are right.
I heard some tongue speaking Christians say that Jesus is the only way. They also said Jesus is the Son of God. These same people did not want to look after a good friend of mine, because her husband shot himself (true, I am not making this up) They preached that sin only gets forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus. They believe what most on this forum believe and they also had bad fruit.
So then: Because they they have bad fruit , I should now not accept that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus is the only way and throw out the gospel.
Sorry, shad, but that is no argument. That is saying, I ate a bad peach, all peaches are bad.
OK, for those who really want to study about ALL the scriptures and ALL that the Bible teaches about the Holy Spirit, from the Old to the New testament, here are links. They are each one hour long, so you have to be serious about finding out the truth to listen to three hours of teaching. But that will indicate to you how serious you are about knowing all the Bible has to say on this subject.
We can really only find truth if God gives it to us, to I pray that those He leads to listen to this, will do so prayerfully in humility , so that God can open His Word to them
blessings
C
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... eron-1.mp3
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... eron-2.mp3
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... eron-3.mp3
We can really only find truth if God gives it to us, to I pray that those He leads to listen to this, will do so prayerfully in humility , so that God can open His Word to them
blessings
C
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... eron-1.mp3
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... eron-2.mp3
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... eron-3.mp3
Cornelius said:
According to the Bible, there are many false doctrines and false witensses. Thatss why Jesus says we know by our fruit if we are of God or not. Many christians don't want to talk about the fruit it is because fruit proves truthfulness or not. Jesus does not trust lipservers.
same as the above.
I am only taking heed of Jesus' warning.Test everything. Looking for the fruit is the bottom line, everyone.
You cannot answer to everyone elses questions, either.
I
Imagican
Guest
An offering:
Paul warned the Corinthians that they were REMAINING 'babes in Christ'. The REASON that they had found themselves in this position is that they were continually seeking the FIRST step OVER AND OVER AGAIN. And through the condition of their hearts, they were 'falling away' from the truth. For they were SO intent on the FEELINGS that existed upon their FIRST 'coming to Christ' that they began to 'create a kind of NEW religion' based MORE on their FEELINGS than the TRUTH.
That is WHY Paul explained that NOTHING that they practiced had ANY bearing on the truth if it was practiced for ANY REASON outside of 'charity', (love). (Self love does NOT constitute TRUE LOVE). And Paul even offered an explanation in defining the 'edification' of 'tongues' used OUTSIDE of their proper forum. He stated that the tongues being MISUSED were being done so for SELF edification and there UNLESS there was offered edification of the 'Church' then there was NO USE condoned.
I KNOW it's ALMOST impossible to convince someone differently, who has CHOSEN to 'believe' that 'gibberish' is the 'tongues' mentioned in scripture, but ALL one NEED do in order to discern whether or NOT they are 'true tongues' is compare the behavior to what Paul 'laid out' so far as instruction. IF the 'tongues' being practiced DO NOT conform to his instruction, then they are NOT the 'tongues' refered to in scripture.
Like MOST other 'differences' in interpretation, such a 'common sense' approach to scripture is RARELY accepted by those with 'itching ears' that believe that what they WANT to hear is MORE important that what is actually stated.
The ONLY definition that we HAVE of 'tongues' are ACTUAL languages. The apostles and others were GIVEN the 'gift' of being able to SPEAK to people of other nationalities and languages so that the Word could be spread. The miracle of 'tongues', (or gift), was in the FACT that NONE of those 'gifted with this ability' LEARNED to speak in other languages, but were EMPOWERED through the power of The Spirit so that they could communicate to others.
While there will ALWAYS be that 'few' that insist that there IS another FORM of tongues, we have NO REASON to believe this except through the teachings of men. For the Words speaks of NO OTHER tongues.
Paul offers that 'tongues are NOT for them that BELIEVE', but for them that BELIEVE NOT. And he goes ON to further illustrate that tongues without an interpreter are NOT TRUE TONGUES if spoken IN the Church. Like it or not, this IS 'the truth'.
That leaves us in a position, (those that DESIRE true understanding), that begs an 'answer' to those 'tongues' being used today. When compared with scripture, THESE tongues are 'created by men', (or what could be infinitely WORSE, 'other spirits), and have NO VALID PLACE 'in the Church'.
I have witnessed LITERALLY DOZENS of those that have been led to believe that they MUST 'speak in tongues' to SHOW that they have been Baptized in Spirit. This is NO different than our modern day 'faith healers' blaming the inability of those that are NOT healed on THEIR 'lack of faith'.
For we KNOW that the gifts offered through The Spirit are DIFFERENT for each that comes TO The Spirit. All will NOT 'speak in tongues' and furthermore, where there ARE tongues, they shall CEASE. History would indicate that they DID cease once the Church was established enough to endure WITHOUT THEM. And that would have likely taken place no LATER than a generation after the apostles. For by then, Christianity was well enough established in the Roman empire to 'carry on' without the NEED of a 'select group', (and very small), to communicate in 'unlearned languages'.
Free,
I noticed that you have yet to answer my question previous so I'll ask again: "Have you personally witnessed a 'true use' of tongues in YOUR experience?
Blessings,
MEC
Paul warned the Corinthians that they were REMAINING 'babes in Christ'. The REASON that they had found themselves in this position is that they were continually seeking the FIRST step OVER AND OVER AGAIN. And through the condition of their hearts, they were 'falling away' from the truth. For they were SO intent on the FEELINGS that existed upon their FIRST 'coming to Christ' that they began to 'create a kind of NEW religion' based MORE on their FEELINGS than the TRUTH.
That is WHY Paul explained that NOTHING that they practiced had ANY bearing on the truth if it was practiced for ANY REASON outside of 'charity', (love). (Self love does NOT constitute TRUE LOVE). And Paul even offered an explanation in defining the 'edification' of 'tongues' used OUTSIDE of their proper forum. He stated that the tongues being MISUSED were being done so for SELF edification and there UNLESS there was offered edification of the 'Church' then there was NO USE condoned.
I KNOW it's ALMOST impossible to convince someone differently, who has CHOSEN to 'believe' that 'gibberish' is the 'tongues' mentioned in scripture, but ALL one NEED do in order to discern whether or NOT they are 'true tongues' is compare the behavior to what Paul 'laid out' so far as instruction. IF the 'tongues' being practiced DO NOT conform to his instruction, then they are NOT the 'tongues' refered to in scripture.
Like MOST other 'differences' in interpretation, such a 'common sense' approach to scripture is RARELY accepted by those with 'itching ears' that believe that what they WANT to hear is MORE important that what is actually stated.
The ONLY definition that we HAVE of 'tongues' are ACTUAL languages. The apostles and others were GIVEN the 'gift' of being able to SPEAK to people of other nationalities and languages so that the Word could be spread. The miracle of 'tongues', (or gift), was in the FACT that NONE of those 'gifted with this ability' LEARNED to speak in other languages, but were EMPOWERED through the power of The Spirit so that they could communicate to others.
While there will ALWAYS be that 'few' that insist that there IS another FORM of tongues, we have NO REASON to believe this except through the teachings of men. For the Words speaks of NO OTHER tongues.
Paul offers that 'tongues are NOT for them that BELIEVE', but for them that BELIEVE NOT. And he goes ON to further illustrate that tongues without an interpreter are NOT TRUE TONGUES if spoken IN the Church. Like it or not, this IS 'the truth'.
That leaves us in a position, (those that DESIRE true understanding), that begs an 'answer' to those 'tongues' being used today. When compared with scripture, THESE tongues are 'created by men', (or what could be infinitely WORSE, 'other spirits), and have NO VALID PLACE 'in the Church'.
I have witnessed LITERALLY DOZENS of those that have been led to believe that they MUST 'speak in tongues' to SHOW that they have been Baptized in Spirit. This is NO different than our modern day 'faith healers' blaming the inability of those that are NOT healed on THEIR 'lack of faith'.
For we KNOW that the gifts offered through The Spirit are DIFFERENT for each that comes TO The Spirit. All will NOT 'speak in tongues' and furthermore, where there ARE tongues, they shall CEASE. History would indicate that they DID cease once the Church was established enough to endure WITHOUT THEM. And that would have likely taken place no LATER than a generation after the apostles. For by then, Christianity was well enough established in the Roman empire to 'carry on' without the NEED of a 'select group', (and very small), to communicate in 'unlearned languages'.
Free,
I noticed that you have yet to answer my question previous so I'll ask again: "Have you personally witnessed a 'true use' of tongues in YOUR experience?
Blessings,
MEC
Well, it all depends on what you mean by true tongues. If you ignore all of what Paul says regarding tongues and relegate it to only known languages that the speaker didn't understand, then no, I have not but I have read stories of people who have.Imagican said:
But my argument with shad is simply one of using logic, and his is faulty, which is what I was trying to point out.
Free said:
Free, do you speak in tongues?
I have not heard any legitimate practice or godly fruit of specking in tongues. How can you say my logic is faulty? I am speaking from evidence. You and C cannot come up with any significant evidence as far as practicalily and good witnessing to the world, on the contrally, there are tons and tons of disgracing practices by speaking in tongue churches. His followers' main responsiblity is giving good witness to the world. It is not so hard to figure out what they are practicing is not of God.
I
Imagican
Guest
Tongues are NOT for them that BELIEVE, but for them that BELIEVE NOT.
One, two or three, BY COURSE, (in order), and there MUST be an interpreter.
Women are to remain SILENT in The Church, (Since this was offered in the SAME chapter concerning 'tongues', it is relatively a 'given' that their 'silence' is in reference to tongues).
Where there are 'tongues', they SHALL CEASE.
Taking this last statement on tongues, isn't it AMAZING that we have little if ANY evidence that 'tongues' even EXISTED past the generation of the apostles. And for about 1900 years, they were NOT in practice.
All of a sudden, ONE PERSON introduced 'tongues' into THEIR CHURCH and it has spread to the point that we are NOW even having such a discussion.
Where did 'tongues' GO for those 1900 years? IF they were AS important a 'gift' as those churches teach, WHERE are these 'tongues' in the OTHER churches? Hmmmm...........
So ALL the OTHER churches 'have it WRONG' and through NOT practicing their faith in truth, The Spirit does NOT offer this gift to THEM? Utterly REDICULOUS. That would make ALL that serve in EVERY denomination EXCEPT those that teach such; LOST. Hmmmm again.........
Then, when we consider the OTHER practices taught by these SAME that 'use tongues', it becomes apparent that it is THEIR teaching that is askew and DOESN'T conform to The Word. 'Slain in the Spirit'? Find that one for me in The Word. Prosperity teaching? Hmmmm....... God is BOUND by His promises to Bless others? Give MONEY and ye shall RECEIEVE MONEY? Falling down and flopping around? The list is pretty extensive and these are only a 'beginning'.
My advice to those that question such practices: If it makes YOU uncomfortable, it PROBABLY ISN'T OF GOD. For God is NOT the author of confusion, but of PEACE as in ALL churches of the Saints.
Is there ANYONE out there that can HONESTLY say that God WISHES for us to BE confused or have 'weird feelings' about HIM? God IS Our Father and LOVES us AS SUCH. What kind of Father would LEAVE His children IGNORANT as to His WiLL? And what kind of God would find PLEASURE in those that were 'flopping around on the ground' or 'barking like dogs'? Hmmmm........
We ARE to conform to the IMAGE of Christ. EVER hear of CHRIST mumbling incoherently? Or, Flopping around on the ground? How about 'barking like a dog'? I know, rediculous RIGHT. Yet there ARE churches that would TEACH and PRACTICE such behavior and swear up and down that it is THROUGH The SPIRIT. Would that, if UNTRUE, BE Blasphemy of The Spirit? Just a QUESTION.
Blessings,
MEC
One, two or three, BY COURSE, (in order), and there MUST be an interpreter.
Women are to remain SILENT in The Church, (Since this was offered in the SAME chapter concerning 'tongues', it is relatively a 'given' that their 'silence' is in reference to tongues).
Where there are 'tongues', they SHALL CEASE.
Taking this last statement on tongues, isn't it AMAZING that we have little if ANY evidence that 'tongues' even EXISTED past the generation of the apostles. And for about 1900 years, they were NOT in practice.
All of a sudden, ONE PERSON introduced 'tongues' into THEIR CHURCH and it has spread to the point that we are NOW even having such a discussion.
Where did 'tongues' GO for those 1900 years? IF they were AS important a 'gift' as those churches teach, WHERE are these 'tongues' in the OTHER churches? Hmmmm...........
So ALL the OTHER churches 'have it WRONG' and through NOT practicing their faith in truth, The Spirit does NOT offer this gift to THEM? Utterly REDICULOUS. That would make ALL that serve in EVERY denomination EXCEPT those that teach such; LOST. Hmmmm again.........
Then, when we consider the OTHER practices taught by these SAME that 'use tongues', it becomes apparent that it is THEIR teaching that is askew and DOESN'T conform to The Word. 'Slain in the Spirit'? Find that one for me in The Word. Prosperity teaching? Hmmmm....... God is BOUND by His promises to Bless others? Give MONEY and ye shall RECEIEVE MONEY? Falling down and flopping around? The list is pretty extensive and these are only a 'beginning'.
My advice to those that question such practices: If it makes YOU uncomfortable, it PROBABLY ISN'T OF GOD. For God is NOT the author of confusion, but of PEACE as in ALL churches of the Saints.
Is there ANYONE out there that can HONESTLY say that God WISHES for us to BE confused or have 'weird feelings' about HIM? God IS Our Father and LOVES us AS SUCH. What kind of Father would LEAVE His children IGNORANT as to His WiLL? And what kind of God would find PLEASURE in those that were 'flopping around on the ground' or 'barking like dogs'? Hmmmm........
We ARE to conform to the IMAGE of Christ. EVER hear of CHRIST mumbling incoherently? Or, Flopping around on the ground? How about 'barking like a dog'? I know, rediculous RIGHT. Yet there ARE churches that would TEACH and PRACTICE such behavior and swear up and down that it is THROUGH The SPIRIT. Would that, if UNTRUE, BE Blasphemy of The Spirit? Just a QUESTION.
Blessings,
MEC
Imagican said:
Speaking in tongues is in the Bible
Barking like dogs: not in the Bible
Not all churches are guilty of point no 2
So its not a valid argument.
Study your history, then you will know why tongues and the other gifts left the church ( because of apostasy)
Why is it returning: God is faithful, He is restoring His church.
When will tongues cease?
When that which is perfect has come.
Has it come already?
No, so tongues cannot cease yet.
Q:What else will cease?
A; Knowledge
1Co 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
Q:Has knowledge disappeared?
A:No its also still here, as is the rest of the things mentioned in verse 8