Baptized by Holy Spirit

[shad]

But speaking in tongues is mentioned in Acts, whenever somebody were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Not exactly.

1) Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ok, one. And they spoke understandable language too.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Ok, two. That's all? Notice that you are quoting all from book of Acts, and they all spoke understandable language.

There are more, but you can look at my first post.

Ok, I would like to see more.

Bible says:Deu 19:15 ........ at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established.

We have two witnesses here that says, the Holy Spirit and tongues goes together.

That's right, but I have not yet witnessed legitimately speaking in tongues. You have not show us yet.

thank you.

 

[shad]

Found another one........


3)Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Ok, three. I believe they were understanble languages too becasue it is not saying anything else to explain.

Notice you are still in the book of Acts.

 

[Imagican]

What no one seems yet willing to tackle is Paul's offering of the distinction of 'true tongues'. He offers that IF one 'speaks in a tongue' UNKNOWN to those present, then there is NO edification offered.

Take that a TINY step forward:

What is EVER offered through the TRUE Spirit that is WITHOUT edification.

Folks, we are 'given' intellegence as a 'part' of our genetic 'makeup'. We were NOT given this 'GIFT' to IGNORE it.

There is AS MUCH to be learned from direct statments as there IS from the inuendo that is offered INDIRECTLY.

If I tell you that the 'stove is HOT and can burn you', I would THINK that 'common sense' or 'intellect' would dictate that I NEED NOT TELL YOU not to touch it. For in the words that I offered were CONTAINED this information without it having to be DIRECTLY 'stated'.

Therefore, IF we are ABLE to understand what tongues ARE, then we NEED NOT be told what they aren't. For either they EXIST within the parameters offered in their explanation, or they are 'something ELSE'.

Paul stated that HE had spoken tongues MORE than ALL to which he wrote. Yet IN THE BODY, (gathering or GROUP), he had RATHER speak FIVE WORDS of UNDERSTANDING than 10,000 words in an 'UNKNOWN TONGUES'. What does this imply IF we use just a PINCH of 'common sense' or 'intellect'? I leave the answer to YOU.

Then, take this into consideration: Tongues are NOT for them that BELIEVE, but for them that BELIEVE NOT. Hmmmmm........... Is this a TRUE statement or NOT?

I am NOT concerned with what MEN teach concerning the 'gift of tongues'. I have been COMMANDED to compare scripture with scripture in order to UNDERSTAND it. Someone offering that they are speaking in TRUE tongues means LITTLE so far as actual TRUTH is concerned IF that which they DO does NOT conform to what we have been GIVEN in instruction. For one can ONLY speak in 'true tongues' AS the Spirit GIVES utterance. With this in mind, NO TONGUES can BE 'true tongues' if spoken OUTSIDE Of the instructions that we have been given. For The Spirit is NOT ignorant of it's OWN devices.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Cornelius]

C, would you reply to this please? thank you.

Yes, I'm still waiting for my answer also.

]Both of us are being sticklers for Biblical proof, all I'm looking for is an example of "Tongues of Angels" being anything other than a known language. Surely if God wants us to "assume" there is a heavenly language spoken by angels, HE would have given us more than just one verse to contemplate. .

I know you are not attacking me Neither am I attacking anybody here.

.................................

But I can then ask: Where does it say that angels speak to each other only in a human language.

I have one scripture that says there are "tongues of angels". So that means angels have a language.

Now I would think it only fair if you bring your scripture , that proves your point and then we can compare the scriptures.

It would be fine if you could also just provide one scripture only. We only need two, so we can compare.

C

 

[Cornelius]

But speaking in tongues is mentioned in Acts, whenever somebody were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Not exactly.

1) Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ok, one. And they spoke understandable language too.

[quote:ts0ae1ek] Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Ok, two. That's all? Notice that you are quoting all from book of Acts, and they all spoke understandable language.

There are more, but you can look at my first post.

Ok, I would like to see more.

Bible says:Deu 19:15 ........ at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established.

We have two witnesses here that says, the Holy Spirit and tongues goes together.

That's right, but I have not yet witnessed legitimately speaking in tongues. You have not show us yet.

thank you.[/quote:ts0ae1ek]

I tried , but I could not find the scripture that you speak of, that says that they all spoke in understandable languages every time they spoke in tongues.

I believe that people do indeed speak in understandable human languages sometimes, when they speak in tongues. That has been documented in modern times, and its also in the Bible. I have no problem with that. I know of two cases in my country that, that happened and I am sure it has happened many times that I do not know of. Even J.G Lake spoke Italian to an Italian lady, when he wanted to witness to her. He prayed and God made him speak to her in her own language.

That would be a gift of tongues.

Now when Paul writes in Corinthians about tongues, he also mentions our prayer language (which is not the "Gift of tongues" ) He is now talking about something different.He is talking about the one that you cannot understand, where your mind is resting from understanding.He is talking about the tongues that arrives with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So we have a Gift of tongues (I believe this one can be understood and is human, or if it is angelic, God will give the interpretation through the operation of another gift)

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

"My spirit prayeth" (Notice: Its not the Holy Spirit praying , but his own spirit praying )
I find this is true, because when you pray in tongues, you do not even have to open your mouth, you can be talking to somebody and your spirit is praying all the time.It is also the only way that we can realistically fulfill this scripture:

1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing;

 

[shad]

C,

I would like to conclude my observation. I haven't yet witnessed any furitful practice of so called "speaking in tongues" churches. No one spoke anything significant in my experiences. No one is speaking actual understandbable language, they are just babbling. And the last but not the least, all prosperity churches speak in tongues. I don't believe this is coincidentce.

Jesus says we know by or fruit if we are of God or not. Speaking in tongue churches are producing disgaceful fruit.

Paul spoke several languages, he was quite linguist. I believe that's what he meant when he said he spoke in tongues more than anyone.

In early Christian age, God was proving to the world that those disciples were indeed God's servants, and He gave His disciples more power to witness to the world, and the gift of tongue was one of them.

 

[Cornelius]

1Co 14:18 I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:
1Co 14:19 howbeit in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I doubt it that Paul was speaking German or Arabic when he spoke in tongues. If so, he would not have had a problem , because if he spoke in understandable , human tongues , why would that be a problem in the churches? If you were to speak in an understandable human language today in one of the churches, chances are somebody will understand. So Paul is obviously not being selfish here , that just because he cannot understand Arabic, (or whatever language you choose) he is not going to speak it.

Also: Seeing it is actually God who gives the ability and God Who would be the one choosing the tongue or language. Don't you think it odd that God will choose to speak, say in Italian, in a Hebrew church? Kind of a waste of a good "trick" don't you think? I know God will not do that, and Paul knows God will not do that, so why is Paul complaining about it if indeed it is an understandable language ?

It does make sense though if nobody could understand what he was saying.

 

[Cornelius]

OK, If you guys want to misread this scripture , then I really do not know what to say:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Do I really have to break it down :yes

OK

He that speaketh in a tongue speaks to how many men

A: He speaketh not unto men

Q: Unto whom dies he speak?

A: unto God

Q: Do any man understand when I speak in a tongue

A: no man understand

Q: What does the spirit speak?

A Mysteries unto God

Please , please see that there is a difference between the two tongues mentioned in the Bible. One is human and this one above is not.

C

 

[Cornelius]

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Why does my own speaking in tongues not edify the church?

A: Because they can never understand it.My spirit is the only that gets edified

Q: Why does prophecy edify the church

A: Because they can understand it.

Again , this is not speaking of the Gift of Tongues, which can sometimes be understood and always must be interpreted by somebody.

 

[shad]

1Co 14:18 I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:
1Co 14:19 howbeit in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I doubt it that Paul was speaking German or Arabic when he spoke in tongues. If so, he would not have had a problem , because if he spoke in understandable , human tongues , why would that be a problem in the churches? If you were to speak in an understandable human language today in one of the churches, chances are somebody will understand. So Paul is obviously not being selfish here , that just because he cannot understand Arabic, (or whatever language you choose) he is not going to speak it.

Paul and other disciples were going many countries and they had many people speaking different languages around them. Take a look at Holy Spirit came on to them for the first time. They were all speaking understandable languages and all witnesses understood what they were saing.

Also: Seeing it is actually God who gives the ability and God Who would be the one choosing the tongue or language. Don't you think it odd that God will choose to speak, say in Italian, in a Hebrew church? Kind of a waste of a good "trick" don't you think? I know God will not do that, and Paul knows God will not do that, so why is Paul complaining about it if indeed it is an understandable language ?

You don't seem to understand or not willing to accept what was taking place when they first spoke in tongues.

Paul also emphasize that speaking in tongue is the least of the gift. Speaking in tongue churches are taking this gift out of proportion if they really do have such gift.

 

[Cornelius]

C,

I would like to conclude my observation. I haven't yet witnessed any furitful practice of so called "speaking in tongues" churches.

I have witnessed demon possessed people speaking in tongues. Demons were angels as well and can well understand it. Its a false teaching that they cannot understand tongues.

Many Spirit filled Christians that have left the true path because of their lusts, are still speaking in tongues. God says judge them by their fruit, not their tongues.

I know backslidden Christians who still speak in tongues. They told me.

Is that possible and why?

because God give his calling and gifts without repentance

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.


So even if you see those fruitless Christians speaking in tongues, it does not mean they do not have the real thing. They are just on the wrong path.

 

[Cornelius]

You don't seem to understand or not willing to accept what was taking place when they first spoke in tongues.

Paul also emphasize that speaking in tongue is the least of the gift. Speaking in tongue churches are taking this gift out of proportion if they really do have such gift.

I did address this in my post.I did say that it is true and still happens today.(I hope you are indeed reading what I am posting LOL I am spending a lot of time searching the Scriptures here )

It being the "least of the gifts" does not discredit the gift. Some of us are least in the Kingdom as well.

C

 

[shad]

OK, If you guys want to misread this scripture , then I really do not know what to say:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Do I really have to break it down :yes

OK

He that speaketh in a tongue speaks to how many men

A: He speaketh not unto men

Q: Unto whom dies he speak?

A: unto God

Q: Do any man understand when I speak in a tongue

A: no man understand

Q: What does the spirit speak?

A Mysteries unto God

Please , please see that there is a difference between the two tongues mentioned in the Bible. One is human and this one above is not.

C

Yes, I understand, but you are not edifying anyone though, Is this realy a gift? Why do you have to speaking in tongue if no one can understand, not even you? I don't think you understand what paul is talking about. What is the purpose of praying with ununderstandable laguage?

And you are ignoring the fact that what kind of fruit those speaking in tongue churches are producing; "we know by our fruit if we are of God or not". We should take a heed of what Jesus says. Did you read my observation post?

 

[shad]

I did address this in my post.I did say that it is true and still happens today.(I hope you are indeed reading what I am posting LOL I am spending a lot of time searching the Scriptures here )

I am addressing the things you seem to be ignroing. Your reasoning of the Scripture don't add up.

It being the "least of the gifts" does not discredit the gift. Some of us are least in the Kingdom as well.

I am very skeptical of people who say they speak in tongues because I have not seen any actual fruit they are producing. When they are speaking in the church setting or in public, it has to be understandable to someone. If speaker and interpreter are from their own church I don't believe it is legitimate.

I have many, many people around me who are claiming to speak in tongues and their prive life is not so godly, in fact, they are bad witnesses.

 

[Cornelius]

OK, If you guys want to misread this scripture , then I really do not know what to say:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Do I really have to break it down :yes

OK

He that speaketh in a tongue speaks to how many men

A: He speaketh not unto men

Q: Unto whom dies he speak?

A: unto God

Q: Do any man understand when I speak in a tongue

A: no man understand

Q: What does the spirit speak?

A Mysteries unto God

Please , please see that there is a difference between the two tongues mentioned in the Bible. One is human and this one above is not.

C

Yes, I understand, but you are not edifying anyone though, Is this realy a gift? Why do you have to speaking in tongue if no one can understand, not even you? I don't think you understand what paul is talking about. What is the purpose of praying with ununderstandable laguage?

And you are ignoring the fact that what kind of fruit those speaking in tongue churches are producing; "we know by our fruit if we are of God or not". We should take a heed of what Jesus says. Did you read my observation post?

Please do not fight with me because of what the Bible says. I did not say tongues edifies you, the Bible says so:1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself;

I am not ignoring the fruit of those churches at all. I left them a long time ago. I speak in tongues and my friends have not complained about my fruit at all.

Please do not generalize like that.

We cannot learn about something, when we drag unruly Christians into the picture LOL Lets just stick to the Bible . OK?

C

 

[shad]

Please do not fight with me because of what the Bible says. I did not say tongues edifies you, the Bible says so:1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself;

I am not fighting, I am only pointing out your inconsistency of using the Scriptures.

I am not ignoring the fruit of those churches at all. I left them a long time ago. I speak in tongues and my friends have not complained about my fruit at all.

Well I still dont see anything you are quatoing the Scriptue which make sense at all.

Please do not generalize like that.

Why not? Jesus always generalized when He spoke. Nothing is wrong about generalization.

We cannot learn about something, when we drag unruly Christians into the picture LOL Lets just stick to the Bible . OK?

C

Yes, I am speaking from the point of the Bible but we can always use the Scripture every way we want. You should know that.

 

[shad]

So even if you see those fruitless Christians speaking in tongues, it does not mean they do not have the real thing. They are just on the wrong path.

You surely know what kind of fruit those prosperity chuches are producing because you just showed us DVD about it.

Do you realize that all prorserity churches claim to speak in tongues? Do you think this is coincidence?

All those tongue speaking TV evangelists are prosperity preachers; John Hagee, Joyce Mayer, Benny Hinn and I know there are many others. They are all millionars(sp).

 

[Cornelius]

Please do not fight with me because of what the Bible says. I did not say tongues edifies you, the Bible says so:1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself;

I am not fighting, I am only pointing out your inconsistency of using the Scriptures.

I don't get it . You are saying I am inconsistent saying speaking in tongues edifies, when the Scripture indeed says it edifies. I am now really confused.

[quote:w0mllwus]I am not ignoring the fruit of those churches at all. I left them a long time ago. I speak in tongues and my friends have not complained about my fruit at all.

Well I still dont see anything you are quatoing the Scriptue which make sense at all.[/quote:w0mllwus]

Just point to the Scripture that you are not understanding and we can again talk about that one

[quote:w0mllwus]Please do not generalize like that.

Why not? Jesus always generalized when He spoke. Nothing is wrong about generalization.[/quote:w0mllwus]

Just to understand you : You are saying, that I am bearing bad fruit, because Christians you know who speak in tongues, have bad fruit? I take it that I am understanding you correctly.

I would be interested in the scripture verse, where Jesus is generalizing too.

[quote:w0mllwus]We cannot learn about something, when we drag unruly Christians into the picture LOL Lets just stick to the Bible . OK?

C

Yes, I am speaking from the point of the Bible but we can always use the Scripture every way we want. You should know that. [/quote:w0mllwus]

Again, I am not clear about what you mean.I certainly do not know that we are allowed to use the Scripture "every way we want"

 

[shad]

I don't get it . You are saying I am inconsistent saying speaking in tongues edifies, when the Scripture indeed says it edifies. I am now really confused.

I don't see anything what you are claming is edifying; what I mean is that you cannot prove it because I have seen so many rotten fruit of tongue speaking churches or christians. I want to see if you can prove it.

Just point to the Scripture that you are not understanding and we can again talk about that one

I have been doing it with actual practice of my own and Bible's.

Just to understand you : You are saying, that I am bearing bad fruit, because Christians you know who speak in tongues, have bad fruit? I take it that I am understanding you correctly.

what I am saying is that you may be promoting non-existing gift.

I would be interested in the scripture verse, where Jesus is generalizing too.

Ok I will look them up. There are tons of them.

We cannot learn about something, when we drag unruly Christians into the picture LOL Lets just stick to the Bible . OK?

Again, we know by our fruit if we are of God or not. If we are practicing the samething as unruly Christians and churches we are the same kind.

Again, I am not clear about what you mean.I certainly do not know that we are allowed to use the Scripture "every way we want"

We can manipulate the Scriptures. Why do you think everyone quoting the Scriptures and come up with completely different doctrins?

 

[Cornelius]

[quote:18tgk9qi]
I don't get it . You are saying I am inconsistent saying speaking in tongues edifies, when the Scripture indeed says it edifies. I am now really confused.

I don't see anything what you are claming is edifying; what I mean is that you cannot prove it because I have seen so many rotten fruit of tongue speaking churches or christians. I want to see if you can prove it.[/quote:18tgk9qi][/quote]
I don't have to prove anything that I read in the Bible. I am required to believe what it says though. If you do not believe it, then I suppose that is that. There is nothing I can really do about that.

[quote:18tgk9qi]Just to understand you : You are saying, that I am bearing bad fruit, because Christians you know who speak in tongues, have bad fruit? I take it that I am understanding you correctly.

what I am saying is that you may be promoting non-existing gift. [/quote:18tgk9qi]

Again, I am not promoting anything, I am quoting the Bible. Would you be happier if I rather not used the Bible, and then we could just go on our own opinions?

[quote:18tgk9qi]I would be interested in the scripture verse, where Jesus is generalizing too.

Ok I will look them up. There are tons of them.
[/quote:18tgk9qi]

Good, I will give you time to get them.

[quote:18tgk9qi]We cannot learn about something, when we drag unruly Christians into the picture LOL Lets just stick to the Bible . OK?

Again, we know by our fruit if we are of God or not. If we are practicing the samething as unruly Christians and churches we are the same kind.[/quote:18tgk9qi]

We can learn about something, when we study the Bible. God's Word is the only truth.

[quote:18tgk9qi]Again, I am not clear about what you mean.I certainly do not know that we are allowed to use the Scripture "every way we want"

We can manipulate the Scriptures. Why do you think everyone quoting the Scriptures and come up with completely different doctrins? [/quote:18tgk9qi]

I agree that many manipulate Scripture. They are adding or subtracting. Not good for eternal life. If you see me doing it, place your finger on it please. Its good to correct people, using Scripture though. You cannot just say: "Hey you are twisting Scripture" you have to add the correct meaning and back it up with Scripture. OK ?

C