Belief a CHOICE?

[rstrats]

A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you are one of them perhaps one of you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say,“OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron†and who hides his pot of gold at the end of a rainbow and if captured has to grant the person who captured him three wishes. So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[Grazer]

The extremely short answer to this is evidence. What is the evidence its true? If the evidence for it outweighs the evidence for what I currently believe then I have a choice to make.

I wasn't always a Christian and my conversion was not instantaneous by any stretch. I know for some it has been but it wasn't for me and in many ways I'm thankful.

If you didn't choose to believe then you didn't choose to be a Christian so why are you?

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[rstrats]

Grazer,

re: "The extremely short answer to this is evidence."

If beliefs can be obtained by simply choosing to have them, then evidence is not necessary - prudent in certain cases, perhaps - but not necessary. But even if it were necessary, how would you know when you had it?



re: "...my conversion was not instantaneous..."

If by "conversion" you mean the realization of a new belief, then it HAD to be instantaneous. You can't believe that something isn't true, AND at the same time believe that the same something IS true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other.



re: " If you didn't choose to believe then you didn't choose to be a Christian so why are you?"

I would venture a guess that when I realize that I have a new belief in something, that it is very likely due to some process occurring in my subconscious as a result of it being exposed to literature, conversations, lectures, media, etc.

 

[Grazer]

Grazer,

re: "The extremely short answer to this is evidence."

If beliefs can be obtained by simply choosing to have them, then evidence is not necessary - prudent in certain cases, perhaps - but not necessary. But even if it were necessary, how would you know when you had it?



re: "...my conversion was not instantaneous..."

If by "conversion" you mean the realization of a new belief, then it HAD to be instantaneous. You can't believe that something isn't true, AND at the same time believe that the same something IS true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other.



re: " If you didn't choose to believe then you didn't choose to be a Christian so why are you?"

I would venture a guess that when I realize that I have a new belief in something, that it is very likely due to some process occurring in my subconscious as a result of it being exposed to literature, conversations, lectures, media, etc.

That's just it. Your starting premise is faulty. I don't believe you can just decide to believe something else instantly. I believed there wasn't a God then had a period where I really wasn't sure then concluded that there was a God and my faith stemmed from there. It didn't happen straight away.

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[Aardverk]

......Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. .....

Can I use a different example instead?

A great many people believe in anthropomorphic global warming. There is a fairly convincing theory for it and many eminent scientists will tell you that it is a proven fact. Conversely, there are some significant holes in the theory and some clear evidence that some of the data was forged and/or unreliable.

Despite those holes, the majority of governments seem to be convinced that anthropomorphic global warming is true that they are even prepared to spend your money trying to reduce it. So how did they 'choose to believe it'? A cynic would tell you that they chose to believe for political expediency BUT they had to make a choice which to believe and once a controversial choice is made people always seem to defend their choice and end up 'really' believing it.

Linking that back to religion, there are some clear examples in history of rulers changing their religion for political expediency. The Vikings are the simplest example, changing to Christianity to avoid being attacked by the rest of Europe as Christianity expanded.

 

[Aardverk]

..... Scientists offer supposed evidence that God does not exist, but am I a scientist? ........

I am not aware of this! Which scientists claim that there is evidence that God does not exist?

Are you sure you have that right? Or is it something that you just choose to believe?

 

[evenifigoalone]

I think to some extent our beliefs are choices. You choose to view the evidence, and you choose to eventually believe or deny it. I don't see how it has to be instantaneous to be a choice. I have doubts, plenty of them, yet I consciously choose to belief despite those doubts.

 

[rstrats]

Edward,

re: "I believe that we can choose to believe or not."


Then I would ask you to demonstrate your ability by doing as suggested in the OP.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I believe we reason things and at the conclusion of our reasoning, we make a choice.

example: I was debating in my mind as to whether I believed that Jesus was truly God. At the conclusion of my reasoning, I made a decision that Jesus was truly God and I asked him into my heart. It was at the conclusion of my reasoning that I made a choice.

Can I scientifically prove this is what happened?
No, but none the less it is what happened.

 

[Fedusenko]

You should study neural chemistry to answer your question. The problem falls in your premise that it happens instantaneously. I once had a coat that I left in a closet. WHen I finally pulled it out I instantly realized that moths had eaten holes in it. That doesn't mean the moths instantly made those holes.

 

[rstrats]

Grazer,

Firstly, any particular reason for quoting the 3 comments that I made in my post #3, and then addressing only 1 of them?

Secondly, with regard to your comment that my starting premise is faulty because you don't believe that beliefs can occur instantly, I would ask you to provide an example where you do not believe - are not convinced - that something exists AND at the same time believe - are convinced - that the same something DOES exist.

 

[rstrats]

questdriven,

re: " I have doubts, plenty of them, yet I consciously choose to belief despite those doubts."

So then John 3:16 could be written: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever thinks that that is likely true even though they have plenty of doubts about it, should not perish but have everlasting life?

 

[for_his_glory]

Belief is like your five senses of touch, taste, seeing, hearing and smelling as when you use them you will have evidence of what each sense responds to. Faith is the same way as when you learn how to use your Spiritual senses of discernment you will find the evidence of truth by that of the Holy Spirit revealing it to you. Spiritual senses are the seven spirits of wisdom,understanding, counsel, power, knowledge, respect of the Lord and gifts of the Holy Spirit, Rev 5:6, also given to the seven Churches in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

touch - application to that of what you are reading in scripture to apply it in your own life
taste - God says to taste and see He is good
seeing - evidence of Gods word revealing in your life when you know His promises that brings us blessings
hearing - faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by reading the word and hearing what the Holy Spirit is speaking to you
smelling - that sweet aroma of Gods love as it engulfs you like when you smell a rose

 

[Fedusenko]

[Please] provide an example where you do not believe - are not convinced - that something exists AND at the same time believe - are convinced - that the same something DOES exist.

...That is one way to take my comment. Another way is to understand the holes in the coat as doubt or conflicting data. The coat is behind a door so the holes arn't noticed until a moment of revelation presents itself to what has been going on all along. This may be a long process or a short process.

You change your beliefs based on what you understand and accept. Do you have any examples where you instantly changed your opinion on a matter seeing as you posted the thread?

 

[HumbleOurselves]

Here re some verses to provoke thought.

John 15:16 NIV 1984 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name"

John 6:44 NIV 1984 ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65 NIV 1984 "He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Galatians 1:11-12 NIV 1984 "I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."

Galatians 1:15-16 NIV 1984 "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles"

John 3:3 NIV 1984 "In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

John 3:6 NIV 1984 "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

John 3:8 NIV 1984 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.â€

Ephesians 1:4-6 NIV 1984 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

Romans 9:16-18 NIV 1984 "It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.â€g Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

 

[evenifigoalone]

questdriven,

re: " I have doubts, plenty of them, yet I consciously choose to belief despite those doubts."

So then John 3:16 could be written: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever thinks that that is likely true even though they have plenty of doubts about it, should not perish but have everlasting life?

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."~Mark 9:23-24 KJV

In my experience, doubt is a normal part of a walk with God and something we all deal with sooner or later. Actually, doubt is something all people deal with to some degree no matter what they believe. That "I don't believe I'm wrong, but what if I am" feeling. Just seems like there's so many variables and like you can never be sure about anything.

 

[Fedusenko]

Word, QD. Word.

 

[Grazer]

Doubt is a position between beliefs. You don't really believe 2 conflicting things at the same time more that you don't believe either of them as you're not sure which is right.

There seems to be several different concepts floating around. Are you saying that we don't choose to believe we just react? Are you saying its possible to believe something but don't do anything it?

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[Aardverk]

......There seems to be several different concepts floating around. .....

Yes, maybe the OP'ster would like us to limit our speculation a little? It seemed a simple question but it is surprisingly thought provoking

Are we talking about people who believe, REALLY BELIEVE and always have or are we also including those who 'believe' BASED at some point in their lives on the BALANCE OF PROBABILITIES? i.e. a considered, intellectual decision.

If we are talking only about the former, and that may indicate that they have not even thought about the subject, then I think I would agree that THEY did not choose to believe. The others can and do choose.

 

[Aardverk]

Choosing to believe is choosing to have faith.

That sounds very sensible. I thought for a while you had solved the semantic dilemma but isn't having faith in God the same as believing in God? Could one have faith in someone or something if you didn't believe in them/it?

What about my example of choosing to believe one side of an argument? Like the example I gave of anthropomorphic global warming? I suppose you could say that we have or don't have faith in climate scientists which seems to be the same as believing or disbelieving them. :gah

Maybe you are better at financial management than you think you are.