Belief and Faith

[GodsGrace]

I think we use biblical words in our modern everyday communication sometimes to express ourselves, without fully understanding the meaning of those words as they were expressed in the original language.

To answer your question, yes believe and faith used in our modern vernacular are primarily the same.


If we are referring to the biblical words as they were used in the original language then no.


Biblically Speaking -

Faith is a noun.

Believe is a verb.


Faith is what we receive from God when He speaks to us.


Believe is our part that we must do in order to activate the faith that we receive from God when He speaks to us.



Believe also carries the idea of obedience.

If we believe Jesus is Lord, but don’t submit to Him in obediently then we really don’t believe.

Unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word.

Without obedience faith remains dormant and inactive; unable to produce the intended divine result.




JLB

 

[JLB]

it was the Lord Himself who saved them

The Lord provided salvation for the whole world.


Only those who obey the Gospel are regenerated, born again, or “saved” through faith, as well as receive salvation on the Day of the Lord, showing both a past action as well as continued action of obedience to our Lord, are pertinent to receiving everlasting life rather than eternal damnation on the Day of Judgement.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:22-23


again



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



I think John, the Apostle of love, said it best -


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


again


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



When we confess Jesus as Lord, it means we submit to Him as Lord, to obey Him, forever.





JLB

 

[chessman]

but after we're saved...which is totally by God, as is stated by you, THEN we have our good works to do...

Yes we have good works to do.
But??? There is no contrast between us having good works to do after we’re saved entirely by the Lord and our remaining infirmity (moral or physical). Irenaeus is making this very point and using Paul’s own failures in doing so.

And WE must do them...

What happens if we fail to do the good works we must do? (This is a serious question, BTW)

So are WE instrumental in our salvation or not? (This is really a yes or no question.)

Here’s what Irenaeus taught:

“the "good thing" of our salvation is not from us, but from God.”

God saves us,

Thank God He saves us from once (past tense) being slaves to sin and now (presently) being slaves to righteousness, Amen.

But actually that was Irenaeus, not my statement. Irenaeus was pointing out that it was the Lord (all by Himself) who saved the very Romans Paul just thanked God were (past tense) enslaved to sin but are now enslaved to righteousness.

He empowers us to do good

Of course. But Irenaeus points out, using Paul as an example, where the “good thing” is from.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes we have good works to do.
But??? There is no contrast between us having good works to do after we’re saved entirely by the Lord and our remaining infirmity (moral or physical). Irenaeus is making this very point and using Paul’s own failures in doing so.

If you're going to quote Irenaeus, I'm afraid you're going to have to post the statement and the source.

Here's one quote of Irenaeus:
But to the righteous and holy, and those who have kept his commandments and have remained in his love…he will by his grace give life incorrupt, and will clothe them with eternal glory (ch.10:1).

As you can see, he states that those that keep God's commandments (Jesus) and remain in His love, He will give THEM eternal glory.

It's up to us to be righteous and holy.

What happens if we fail to do the good works we must do? (This is a serious question, BTW)

Yes. Very serious indeed. I've been asked this, I've been asked HOW MANY good works we must do.

We must do what Jesus said to do to the best of our ability. No one is going to do all that He asked...but we should always walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. We should do our best to let our light shine before men and to keep our saltiness so that we do not become good for nothing but to be thrown out into the street and trampled upon.
Mathew 5:13,14

This is what I was referring to about remarks such as the above...
Are we NOT supposed to do good works?

So are WE instrumental in our salvation or not? (This is really a yes or no question.)

Yes.

We are instrumental in our sanctifiction which is on-going.
Our justification is totally a work of God.

Here’s what Irenaeus taught:

“the "good thing" of our salvation is not from us, but from God.”

Please quote the entire statement and the source.

Here is the complete statement:
The Lord Himself, who is Emmanuel from the Virgin, is the sign of our salvation. It was the Lord Himself who saved them. For they could not be saved by their own instrumentality. Therefore, when Paul explains human infirmity, he says, “For I know that there dwells in my flesh no good thing” [Rom. 7:18]. He thus shows that the “good thing” of our salvation is not from us, but from God. And again: “Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death?” [Rom. 7:24]….Here we see that we must be saved by the help of God, not by ourselves. St. Irenaeus of Lyon (c. 180, E/W), 1.450 (disciple of St. Polycarp).

As you can see, Irenaeus is speaking about Justification...the saving work which is solely of God and which we cannot earn by our works.
Here are some other statements made by Irenaeus...:

To believe in Him is to do His will. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.468.

Those who believe God and follow His word receive that salvation that flows from Him. On the other hand, those who depart from Him, and despise His teachings, and by their deeds bring dishonor on Him, who made them…heap up against themselves most righteous judgment. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.511.

No one, indeed, while placed out of the reach of the Lord’s benefits, has power to procure himself the means of salvation. So the more we receive His grace, the more we should love Him. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.450.

These men [the prophets] did not impute unto us [the Gentiles] our transgressions, which we did before Christ was manifested among us. Therefore, it is not right for us to lay blame upon those who sinned before Christ’s coming. For “all men fall short of the glory of God,” and are not justified of themselves. Rather, they are justified by the coming of the Lord—those who earnestly direct their eyes towards His light. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.499.

However, they [the Gnostics] keep silent with regard to His judgments and all those things which will come upon those who have heard His words, but have not done them. For it would be better for them if they had not been born. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.501.

When a man is grafted in by faith and receives the Spirit of God, he certainly does not lose the substance of the flesh, but changes the quality of the fruit of his works. Ireanaeus, (c. 180 E/W), 1.536.

source: http://www.wenorthodox.com/2013/12/justification-by-faith-quotes-from-the-early-church-fathers-on/

Thank God He saves us from once (past tense) being slaves to sin and now (presently) being slaves to righteousness, Amen.

But actually that was Irenaeus, not my statement. Irenaeus was pointing out that it was the Lord (all by Himself) who saved the very Romans Paul just thanked God were (past tense) enslaved to sin but are now enslaved to righteousness.

Of course. But Irenaeus points out, using Paul as an example, where the “good thing” is from.

Everyone is saved by God alone.
All we have to do is believe in Jesus.
John 3:16
This is HIS condition.

 

[chessman]

If you're going to quote Irenaeus, I'm afraid you're going to have to post the statement and the source.

I’m afraid I did. Here it is again:

it was the Lord Himself who saved them, because they could not be saved by their own instrumentality; and, therefore, when Paul sets forth human infirmity, he says: "For I know that there dwelleth in my flesh no good thing," showing that the "good thing" of our salvation is not from us, but from God.http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html

Does the link not show up on your browser for some reason?

Then I asked you a question :

So are WE instrumental in our salvation or not?

You answered, yes. Even as Irenaeus said and I quote:

For they could not be saved by their own instrumentality.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m afraid I did. Here it is again:

Does the link not show up on your browser for some reason?

Then I asked you a question :

You answered, yes. Even as Irenaeus said and I quote:

Hey C,
I was answering to post 323...I don't see any sources there...
From the above I see that you're using his writing which are pretty extensive. I'm just happy to know somebody uses the ECF and not only me! I feel pretty lonely about this at times.

And yes, we could not BE SAVED by our own instrumentality....
No matter how many works we do, we cannot save ourselves. In fact these are self-righteous works and have no merit in the eyes of God.

ONCE WE ARE SAVED...
Then works come into the picture,,,as any of the early church fathers would say. I could post a lot of writings, if you require them.

IOW, the unsaved will not get saved by doing good works.
The saved will remain saved by doing the good works that are asked of them by their Father, God. Jesus left us with many commandments and told us that IF we love Him, we will obey Him.
John 14:15

 

[ezra]

lol TOS ya all are debating who is right and who is wrong lol i love it .i rest my case

 

[MarkT]

Mark, is a "work" a good thing or a bad thing for you?

I consider work to be good,,,but I'm often scolded for this point of view.

Anything we do for God is a work..but some today are starting to say that even FAITH is a work...so I'm becoming a bit confused...

A work is a deed. An act. So there are good deeds and evil deeds.

Faith is the opposite of doubt. So it's not a work.

Matthew 14:31
Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “O man of little faith, why did you doubt?”

 

[GodsGrace]

lol TOS ya all are debating who is right and who is wrong lol i love it .i rest my case

You will notice, E, that we are having a pleasant discussion.
I accept that not everyone went to the same churches I went to or had the same experiences I've had.

What we need to understand is that even biblical scholars do not agree with each other on everything biblical.

The point is to stay civil and discuss, rather than argue and insult.

 

[GodsGrace]

A work is a deed. An act. So there are good deeds and evil deeds.

Faith is the opposite of doubt. So it's not a work.
Matthew 14:31
Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “O man of little faith, why did you doubt?”

Sorry Mark,,,what I was getting at is do YOU believe that works are not necessary and that we are not kept saved by works.

This is what I hear these days.

IOW, I believe, as born again believers, we are required to do good works and that this obedience keeps us saved and abiding in Christ.

Would you agree with this?

(I know some deeds are good and some are evil).

 

[ezra]

You will notice, E, that we are having a pleasant discussion.

well of course how could it not be any thing but pleasant

 

[GodsGrace]

well of course how could it not be any thing but pleasant

Why? You don't agree that we're just discussing?
Please make yourself clear since I'm tying this into the new TOS we're all discussing....

 

[ezra]

Why? You don't agree that we're just discussing?
Please make yourself clear since I'm tying this into the new TOS we're all discussing....

View attachment 6596

 

[ezra]

just a mere observation a discussion can be called anything ..in your own words of advice for me..just chill out .

 

[JLB]

just a mere observation a discussion can be called anything ..in your own words of advice for me..just chill out .

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Maybe you could share something worth while about the thread topic: belief and faith


Do you see a difference between the these two words?



JLB

 

[ezra]

it would be like a well to deep and over your head

 

[JLB]

it would be like a well to deep and over your head

Maybe if you share your understanding of these words, we could all be enlightened a little.


JLB

 

[ezra]

Why? You don't agree that we're just discussing?
Please make yourself clear since I'm tying this into the new TOS we're all discussing....

no actually reading the post it has a 50/50 mix discussion /debate and a tad bit of who is wrong and who is right . falls to the same level when i discussed being slain in the spirit . you can tie in all the TOS you want. its still going to remain the same..

 

[ezra]

Maybe if you share your understanding of these words, we could all be enlightened a little.


JLB

no actually for some reason .it never turns out civil between you and me... so i refrain .but the post was between wondering and i ..not a third party

 

[WIP]

Hey guys, let's get back on topic!