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"Believe" in the present tense

F

FreeGrace

Member
Much has been claimed about the verb "believe" in the present tense. Such as; continuous action for the rest of one's life.

The following link provides a detailed explanation of Greek tenses.
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

If one can show from this link the suggestion that the present tense indicates action to the end of one's life, please copy and paste into a response to the OP.

The present tense is used to indicate an action occurring at the present time, from the perspective of the speaker/writer. Think of "currently", or "right now". The action can be continuous, but that doesn't mean action that continues on indefinitely.

We know that can't be true, since Jesus Himself used the present tense for 'believe' in Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Note the 3 words that immediately follow the word 'believe': "for a while". If the present tense means continuous action to the end of one's life, then Jesus didn't understand grammar at all. Which I doubt very much.

Further, in the preceding verse, Jesus used the aorist tense of 'believe' to indicate salvation:
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

So, it's clear that one is saved from a point in time belief, or a simple occurrence of belief.

In fact, Paul used the aorist tense frequently. In Acts 16:31 in his answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved, and in Rom 10:9.

So, the claim that the present tense means continuous action to the end of one's life is an incorrect use of the tense.
 
I have no scripture, nor do I remember the exact source, but I remember reading something about old Hebrew grammar, and that believe means more than in ones mind or heart, but that action is insinuated in the use of the word. That belief can not be belief...umless one takes some sort of action to accompany it.

Now that's second hand knowledge, plus I'm going from memory here, so...I do not know if it is true. Perhaps someone else that has a better grasp on the Hebrew language here could affirm or deny what I am saying...

:confused
 
Edward said:
I have no scripture, nor do I remember the exact source, but I remember reading something about old Hebrew grammar, and that believe means more than in ones mind or heart, but that action is insinuated in the use of the word. That belief can not be belief...umless one takes some sort of action to accompany it.
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I don't believe that. (Sorry, couldn't help myself)

Did you mean the Greek grammar? The OP is about the meaning of the present TENSE in the Greek NT.

The OP wasn't dealing with the meaning of the word 'believe' but how to understand the present tense of the word. As opposed to all the other Greek tenses available.
 
FreeGrace said:
uch has been claimed about the verb "believe" in the present tense. Such as; continuous action for the rest of one's life.
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Paul addresses the Church about this very doctrine.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Anyone who doesn't continue to believe; continue to have faith, by holding fast to the message of the Gospel by which they were saved, will have believed in vain.

  • Their initial believing will have profited them nothing.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Those who are in Christ, and do not remain in Christ, end up cast into the fire and are burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

  • If anyone does not abide in Me ...


JLB
 
JLB said:
Paul addresses the Church about this very doctrine.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Anyone who doesn't continue to believe; continue to have faith, by holding fast to the message of the Gospel by which they were saved, will have believed in vain.

Their initial believing will have profited them nothing.
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It seems the OP wasn't read. The issue is how the present tense is used by Greeks. Not how the English speaking peoples want to use it.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
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Yes, that verse was included in the OP. To show that believing in the present tense does NOT mean to continue to believe for the rest of your life, as the OSNAS position claims. The OP pointed out that the word 'believe' in v.12 was aorist tense, meaning "simple occurrence", and the word 'believe' in v.13 was present tense, yet followed by the phrase "for a while".

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.
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Please include, according to forum rules, any verse that says this. Since Luke 8:13 doesn't say this.

The 2 statements are only an assumption from what Luke 8:13 says. And an incorrecg one at that.

Those who are in Christ, and do not remain in Christ, end up cast into the fire and are burned.
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I have no problem with this. The key is to understand how the Bible uses "fire" and "burned" in other verses.

So, let's look at 1 Cor 3 -
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Please explain how "fire" in v.13 could refer to the lake of fire.
Please explain what v.14 refers to.
Please explain how "burned up" in v.15 means "go to hell" when the verse plainly says "yet will be saved".

Thanks.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

  • If anyone does not abide in Me ...JLB
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Yes. They sure will be. Which has nothing to do with loss of salvation. As 1 Cor 3:13-15 clearly shows.

I look forward to your explanations with verses that support your explanations.
 
FreeGrace the way i am understanding the OP is clearly says

Present Progressive (or 'Continuous') present
so if one believed at the present time of yesterday but not at the present time of today they no long believe today .
 
reba said:
FreeGrace the way i am understanding the OP is clearly says

Present Progressive (or 'Continuous') present
so if one believed at the present time of yesterday but not at the present time of today they no long believe today .
Click to expand...
OR
It could be that Koine Greek just isn't concerned about tense as us Romanised Western English speaking people are.
 
reba said:
FreeGrace the way i am understanding the OP is clearly says

Present Progressive (or 'Continuous') present
so if one believed at the present time of yesterday but not at the present time of today they no long believe today .
Click to expand...
From Daniel Wallace's intermediate Greek grammar textbook, Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics, he said this:
"The progressive present may be used to describe a scene in progress, especially in narrative literature. The difference between this and the iterative (and customary) present is that the latter involves a repeated action, while the progressive present normally involves continuous action. "

He also differentiates between "narrow-band" and "broad-band" presents:
"The specific uses of the present tense can be categorized into 3 large groups: narrow-band presents, broad-band presents, and special uses. “Narrow-band means that the action is portrayed as occurring over a relatively short interval; “broad band means that the action is portrayed as occurring over a longer interval; “special uses” include instances that do not fit into the above categories, especially those involving a time frame that is other than the present.

The definition of “narrow band presents” -
The action is portrayed as being in progress, or as occurring. In the indicative mood, it is portrayed as occurring in the present time (right now), that is, at the time of speaking.

Under “narrow band”, the instantaneous present indicates an action that is completed at the moment of speaking. Occurs only in the indicative. Relatively common."

And this:
"The progressive present may be used to describe a scene in progress, especially in narrative literature. The difference between this and the iterative (and customary) present is that the latter involves a repeated action, while the progressive present normally involves continuous action.

Under “broad band presents”, the tense may be used to describe an action which, begun in the past, continues in the present. The emphasis is on the present time. Note that this is different from the perfect tense in that the perfect speaks only about the results existing in the present time."

I hope this helps to answer your question.
 
JohnDB said:
OR
It could be that Koine Greek just isn't concerned about tense as us Romanised Western English speaking people are.
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Since there are at least 6 different Koine Greek tenses, it would seem they were more concerned. Not to mention all the different ways each of the tenses can be expressed.
 
FreeGrace I will read and re-read a few times :confused2 at a quick reading ( which is not fair) it reads like a lot of words that muddle the simple gospel .. back house hold chores for now
 
FreeGrace Second and third reading .. just as many words as need to not say anything definitive ... So i will leave this discussion of greek to you guys and be thankful God knew i would need His Word in English.. :)
 
FreeGrace said:
Since there are at least 6 different Koine Greek tenses, it would seem they were more concerned. Not to mention all the different ways each of the tenses can be expressed.
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Mood and sex are more important than tense when reading.
Anyone fluent in Koine Greek says so...and I have seen of which they have said and agreed with their Judgement
 
JohnDB said:
Mood and sex are more important than tense when reading.
Anyone fluent in Koine Greek says so...and I have seen of which they have said and agreed with their Judgement
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Can you give us a link or a name of a Greek scholar who says this?
 
FreeGrace said:
Since there are at least 6 different Koine Greek tenses, it would seem they were more concerned. Not to mention all the different ways each of the tenses can be expressed.
Click to expand...
Yes, and most of the present tense examples of 'believe' that we deal with in debate are in a purpose or result clause. Take John 3:16 for example. A very popular verse to 'prove' we need to continue to believe in order to maintain our salvation after we first believed.

It's a result or purpose clause. Hence the subjunctive mood of 'will have eternal life' and 'will not perish'. It is in no way describing a specific individual and their 'present' belief in order to maintain their salvation.

John 3:16 is stating Gods purpose for sending His Son and the result is anyone who believes.........WILL have eternal life and WILL NOT perish. God's present purpose stands. And the result of believing ,instantly grants the believer eternal life that is imperishable.

Subjunctive Mood
The subjunctive mood indicates probability or objective possibility. The action of the verb will possibly happen, depending on certain objective factors or circumstances. It is oftentimes used in conditional statements (i.e. 'If...then...' clauses) or in purpose clauses. However if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm
 
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