"Believe" in the present tense

[gr8grace3]

Unless questions just drip with snarkiness, I always take questions as a legitimate means of gaining understanding. And I always do my best to answer questions.

God bless you Brother. The subtle put downs and passive aggressive answers that you are bombarded with........is why I can't post much. It is face palm after face palm for me.

New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe the Spirit inhabits an unbeliever?

I don't. Who was this addressed to?

 

[FreeGrace]

Tense of a verb in English is a primary part of speech.
Tenses in Greek are an afterthought...not primary even though there are so many of them.

That's not what I read in Greek grammar texts. Is there a source for this?

Mood and sex are primary in Greek due to the construction of their language.

The question is: how do mood and sex relate to the OP and how the present tense is used?

It's an oddity...but really true.
We have our own idioms of speech.
Frog in our throats,
Drive on a parkway and parking on a driveway to name a few.

OK, first there is this "sex and mood" thing, and now idioms of speech. The OP is about tense. How do these things influence the tense?

There's no true Greek scholar who claims anything different about tense than what I and Jim Parker have said. (And I've spoken personally with several)

I've read textbooks on Greek grammar and I've never come across this idea.

But, nevertheless, since sex, mood, and now, idioms are being discussed, how do any of them relate to the OP and the present tense?

Either they influence (change the way to understand it) the present tense, or they don't. Which is it?

Only upon a rare occasion does it truly matter. One such location in scripture where tense matters (because it is always wrong in English) is John 1:12.

In English John 1:12 is written in past tense. But in the Early Latin/Greek John wrote this in it actually is all three tenses at the same time.

I really would like some credible source for this. First, John didn't write John 1:12 in "early Latin/Greek". It's one or the other.

Second, how does one use "all three tenses at the same time". This doesn't seem possible. And just to note, Greek has not 3, but 6 tenses.

And if you study this one verse on how nouns, ajectives, and adverbs all work together to form this tense it will become clear as to what we are saying.

What source would I study to learn about all this?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The link provided supports that."

SO what?
One link supports it another debunks it. It's like dueling "proof texts."

I don't recall anyone providing any other link that "debunks" anything about the OP.

So, what are you talking about?

 

[FreeGrace]

God bless you Brother. The subtle put downs and passive aggressive answers that you are bombarded with........is why I can't post much. It is face palm after face palm for me.

All I try to do is hold people accountable for their claims. But those who don't or can't, resort to subtle put down/ and p-a answers.

New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Exactly.

 

[JohnDB]

That's not what I read in Greek grammar texts. Is there a source for this?


The question is: how do mood and sex relate to the OP and how the present tense is used?


OK, first there is this "sex and mood" thing, and now idioms of speech. The OP is about tense. How do these things influence the tense?


I've read textbooks on Greek grammar and I've never come across this idea.

But, nevertheless, since sex, mood, and now, idioms are being discussed, how do any of them relate to the OP and the present tense?

Either they influence (change the way to understand it) the present tense, or they don't. Which is it?


I really would like some credible source for this. First, John didn't write John 1:12 in "early Latin/Greek". It's one or the other.

Second, how does one use "all three tenses at the same time". This doesn't seem possible. And just to note, Greek has not 3, but 6 tenses.


What source would I study to learn about all this?

Right.

I, like you, went to self study and learn Greek because after reading John 1:12 and seeing it always in past tense. I know that past tense is wrong. (I'm sure that you do as well)
So I recalled some of my foreign language studies I had in High School and Culinary school and bought grammar guides for Koine Greek. Several interlinear and parallel Bibles as well. (I got a large library these days). I also went and got expensive software. I focused on why and how the things in the Bible were said the way that they were said. Mostly because this keeps all the denominational preference out of the mix. (It still snuck in from time to time... people can't help themselves even though writing textbooks)
And on top of this I slowly began to make friends amongst those who had been to seminary or especially those who taught Greek/Early Latin at seminary. I asked questions...lots of them. I live in Nashville...we got lots of these guys around with the three headquarters of LifeWay, Abingdon, and Church of Christ here.

Now if only one of the books or only one of the people I spoke with had not confirmed this concept of tense being an almost after thought I wouldn't believe it. But over and over again they all said the same things. I think that it's in Matthew when Judas is leading the soldiers that Jesus himself uses a "wrong tense".

In order to really excel at these foreign languages you have to change the way you think. And it isn't easy. Then the history of Early Latin is that it transitioned from Greek by a few words at a time as it came out of the palaces in Rome. Latin was a living language that became more precise as time moved on by the systematic formulations of different words when simple Koine Greek (gutter/street speak) wouldn't do.
And the New Testament has so many direct quotes and direct allusions to Old Testament passages it became obvious (to me at least) that knowledge of the Septuagint and the Hebrew scriptures was of vastly more important than Greek. Because the old adage of "The New Testament reveals the Old Testament but the Old Testament explains the New Testament" is very true. Together they form a synergy that show every denomination to have mistaken theological positions... especially some of the favorite theological positions.

I commend you on trying to learn this stuff. It's not easy. Especially when trying to separate fact from ideology and all you want is fact. Some of the other questions you have are great questions. Ones I had myself. Most of my language studies came from books and interviews...so I can't give you easy quick answers. And if you earnestly continue in your studies you will find them. Discussion forums like this do have the silver pins hidden amongst a pile of chrome ones... making it tough. Academia is almost as bad but it's easier to find the silver. The format makes it so.

 

[JLB]

That's not how the Bible describes one who no longer believes. But if there's any verse that does describe a "former believer" as an unbeliever, please share.

What I do know is what the Bible says about those who fall away from the faith: the Greek word for "fall away" is 'apostesontai', from which we get the English word "apostate". It is a form of the Greek word 'aphistemi'. It means to 'depart from', 'to desert', or 'leave behind'.

But it there are any verses that clearly depict those who have departed the faith, meaning they no longer believe (the English definition of an apostate), please share.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who no longer believe, and depart from Him in a time of persecution, are no longer believers.

If you believe that those who no longer believe, who have returned to unbelieving are still saved, then post the scripture for this claim.

The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.

All liars.

If you believe all liars somehow excludes Christians who are liars, then post the scripture that proves Christians who are liars, who practice lying, are excluded from this.


Sorcerers: If you believe Christians who practice sorcery, are except from this scripture and what it teaches then please post the scripture for your theory.

Sexually Immoral: If you believe Christians who practice sexual immorality, are except from this scripture and what it teaches then please post the scripture for your theory.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If you believe that Christians, who practice sexual immorality, and sorcery, and heresies, and adultery, and fornication, and idolatry, and murders and such, will still inherit God's kingdom, even though Paul teaches otherwise then please post the scripture that teaches us otherwise.


If you believe that "will not inherit the kingdom of God", somehow means: will inherit the kingdom of God, then post the scripture that says inherit the kingdom of God, means something other than what Jesus taught us in Matthew 25:34, which is having our part in God's kingdom.


If you don't inherit, or have your part in God's Kingdom, then what kingdom is left for you to have your part in?

Here is the context in which Jesus used this phrase: "inherit the kingdom".

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

This phrase is used by Jesus, when He will sit on the Day of Judgement, and determine who will be welcome in His Kingdom and who will not.

• Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

If your definition is different than that of Jesus Christ, then please explain why?



JLB

 

[Nathan]

I don't. Who was this addressed to?

Anyone really. Mainly to those who think the Spirit still is in a person who denies Christ, one who no longer believes - Who returns to unbelief - An unbeliever.

There are some on here that think once you receive the Spirit then, no matter if you deny Christ, you still have the Spirit.

It's good to hear you don't believe the Spirit inhabits an unbeliever.

 

[JLB]

I'm waiting for any verse that calls a former believer an unbeliever.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Either you believe or you don't believe.

There are two types of people in this world, "believers" and "unbelievers".

Are those who believe for a while then no longer believe: "believers" or "unbelievers" ?



JLB

 

[Nathan]

I think we would all agree that everyone is an unbeliever to begin with. Then, when truth is accepted, we believe the truth, and become "believers".

Why is it we wouldn't then call those who deny the truth, who reject the truth, "unbelievers".

The simple fact is we do not find a third description of people as it relates to faith and salvation. Believers - unbelievers. No third parties spoken of.

 

[Edward]

I think we would all agree that everyone is an unbeliever to begin with. Then, when truth is accepted, we believe the truth, and become "believers".

Why is it we wouldn't then call those who deny the truth, who reject the truth, "unbelievers".

The simple fact is we do not find a third description of people as it relates to faith and salvation. Believers - unbelievers. No third parties spoken of.

I think there is believers, and unbelievers. The monkey wrench that is guaranteed to start a fight is...there are some who think that they believe, but deny certain aspects of the truth, so would in fact be unbelievers. They may be deceived, or they may just deny portions of the truth because it doesn't fit in with their belief system. Now of course absolutely no one would admit that, because everyone thinks that they're right.

When one starts out to find the truth and accept it, they must be careful to not reject any of it because it sounds different or weird to what they were taught. It just doesn't work to sit and pray, lord enlighten me as I read your Word, then when He does...they're like, huh-uh that's not right.

 

[Nathan]

I think there is believers, and unbelievers. The monkey wrench that is guaranteed to start a fight is...there are some who think that they believe, but deny certain aspects of the truth, so would in fact be unbelievers. They may be deceived, or they may just deny portions of the truth because it doesn't fit in with their belief system. Now of course absolutely no one would admit that, because everyone thinks that they're right.

When one starts out to find the truth and accept it, they must be careful to not reject any of it because it sounds different or weird to what they were taught. It just doesn't work to sit and pray, lord enlighten me as I read your Word, then when He does...they're like, huh-uh that's not right.

I'm pretty sure we all start out in Christ believing something. The danger comes not from believing the wrong thing, but denying the right thing.

Even in that, I don't doubt some of us denied the right thing for a while. Thank God He was patient with us. So we too should be patient with others.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Narrow path - The truth

All else - on the path........maybe in the right direction, but doesn't quite get there.

 

[JohnDB]

Beliefs vx cognitive dissonance...

Which one wins?
Which one gets the "I never knew you!" from Jesus?

 

[JLB]

I think there is believers, and unbelievers. The monkey wrench that is guaranteed to start a fight is...there are some who think that they believe, but deny certain aspects of the truth, so would in fact be unbelievers. They may be deceived, or they may just deny portions of the truth because it doesn't fit in with their belief system. Now of course absolutely no one would admit that, because everyone thinks that they're right.

When one starts out to find the truth and accept it, they must be careful to not reject any of it because it sounds different or weird to what they were taught. It just doesn't work to sit and pray, lord enlighten me as I read your Word, then when He does...they're like, huh-uh that's not right.

When a person is first "saved by faith", they are so by believing.

At that moment they are "saved", without ever knowing any biblical truth, of which like any baby, they must drink milk for a season then move on to solid food.

Never the less, believe is condition that is required to be saved.

If that condition is no longer met, then the result of being saved, is no longer applicable.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

The context here is believing Jews were being saved through believing, then later, they would return to Judaism and take up the law again, being persecuted by unbelieving Jews.

This is the context of this passage, which is detailed more specifically in Hebrews.

4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:4-6

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God

This is the meaning and same Greek word as found in Luke 8:13; fall away

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Right.

I, like you, went to self study and learn Greek because after reading John 1:12 and seeing it always in past tense. I know that past tense is wrong. (I'm sure that you do as well)
So I recalled some of my foreign language studies I had in High School and Culinary school and bought grammar guides for Koine Greek. Several interlinear and parallel Bibles as well. (I got a large library these days). I also went and got expensive software. I focused on why and how the things in the Bible were said the way that they were said. Mostly because this keeps all the denominational preference out of the mix. (It still snuck in from time to time... people can't help themselves even though writing textbooks)
And on top of this I slowly began to make friends amongst those who had been to seminary or especially those who taught Greek/Early Latin at seminary. I asked questions...lots of them. I live in Nashville...we got lots of these guys around with the three headquarters of LifeWay, Abingdon, and Church of Christ here.

Now if only one of the books or only one of the people I spoke with had not confirmed this concept of tense being an almost after thought I wouldn't believe it. But over and over again they all said the same things. I think that it's in Matthew when Judas is leading the soldiers that Jesus himself uses a "wrong tense".

In order to really excel at these foreign languages you have to change the way you think. And it isn't easy. Then the history of Early Latin is that it transitioned from Greek by a few words at a time as it came out of the palaces in Rome. Latin was a living language that became more precise as time moved on by the systematic formulations of different words when simple Koine Greek (gutter/street speak) wouldn't do.
And the New Testament has so many direct quotes and direct allusions to Old Testament passages it became obvious (to me at least) that knowledge of the Septuagint and the Hebrew scriptures was of vastly more important than Greek. Because the old adage of "The New Testament reveals the Old Testament but the Old Testament explains the New Testament" is very true. Together they form a synergy that show every denomination to have mistaken theological positions... especially some of the favorite theological positions.

I commend you on trying to learn this stuff. It's not easy. Especially when trying to separate fact from ideology and all you want is fact. Some of the other questions you have are great questions. Ones I had myself. Most of my language studies came from books and interviews...so I can't give you easy quick answers. And if you earnestly continue in your studies you will find them. Discussion forums like this do have the silver pins hidden amongst a pile of chrome ones... making it tough. Academia is almost as bad but it's easier to find the silver. The format makes it so.

Thanks. I was hoping for the answer to my questions:
"The question is: how do mood and sex relate to the OP and how the present tense is used?"

and

"Second, how does one use "all three tenses at the same time". This doesn't seem possible. And just to note, Greek has not 3, but 6 tenses."

 

[FreeGrace]

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13

Yes, sir. One who believes is saved. And some only believe for a while because of temptation.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

But I totally reject the notion that temptation can, in any way, undo the salvation that Christ secured for us by His sacrifice on the cross.

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who no longer believe, and depart from Him in a time of persecution, are no longer believers.

I don't care what anyone calls them, I am only concerned with how the Bible describes them, which is 'apostates'.

If you believe that those who no longer believe, who have returned to unbelieving are still saved, then post the scripture for this claim.

The Bible doesn't need to state anything "according to your personal terms". The Bible is clear on many fronts, all of which have been shared with this forum.

The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake of fire.

Yes, I agree.

All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.
All liars.

So then, did Jesus not die for the sin of lying?? Please answer.

If you believe all liars somehow excludes Christians who are liars, then post the scripture that proves Christians who are liars, who practice lying, are excluded from this.

Just answer my question please.

Sorcerers: If you believe Christians who practice sorcery, are except from this scripture and what it teaches then please post the scripture for your theory.

So then, did Jesus not die for the sin of sorcery? Please answer.

Sexually Immoral: If you believe Christians who practice sexual immorality, are except from this scripture and what it teaches then please post the scripture for your theory.

So then, did Jesus not die for sexual immorality?? Please answer.

If you believe that Christians, who practice sexual immorality, and sorcery, and heresies, and adultery, and fornication, and idolatry, and murders and such, will still inherit God's kingdom, even though Paul teaches otherwise then please post the scripture that teaches us otherwise.

If you believe that "will not inherit the kingdom of God", somehow means: will inherit the kingdom of God, then post the scripture that says inherit the kingdom of God, means something other than what Jesus taught us in Matthew 25:34, which is having our part in God's kingdom.

It would be absurdity for anyone to claim "not inherit the kingdom" somehow means "to inherit the kingdom".

And it's equally absurdity to claim that "to not inherit the kingdom" means "to not enter the kingdom" either.

If you don't inherit, or have your part in God's Kingdom, then what kingdom is left for you to have your part in?

Such a one will be IN the kingdom, but just not have any inheritance there. Eph 5:5.

If your definition is different than that of Jesus Christ, then please explain why?

Of course it isn't. But then, why is yours so different than that of Jesus Christ? Please answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

Anyone really. Mainly to those who think the Spirit still is in a person who denies Christ, one who no longer believes - Who returns to unbelief - An unbeliever.

What did Jesus say about the coming Holy Spirit in John 14?
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

There are some on here that think once you receive the Spirit then, no matter if you deny Christ, you still have the Spirit.

This would be because of what Paul wrote to the Ephesians -
1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

It's good to hear you don't believe the Spirit inhabits an unbeliever.

The Holy Spirit NEVER indwells anyone who has never believed.

But, one who "having believed" (simple occurrence) is "included in Christ", and "marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession (the ones having believed).

This is clear as crystal.

So, when the Bible speaks of unbelievers, it refers to those who NEVER believed. Not ever.

Those having believed (aorist tense - simple occurrence) are sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Either you believe or you don't believe.

So?

Once sealed, having believed, one is sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

There are two types of people in this world, "believers" and "unbelievers".

Why ignore the apostates?

Are those who believe for a while then no longer believe: "believers" or "unbelievers" ?

Apostates.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think we would all agree that everyone is an unbeliever to begin with. Then, when truth is accepted, we believe the truth, and become "believers".

Why is it we wouldn't then call those who deny the truth, who reject the truth, "unbelievers".

Because the Bible calls them apostates, which distinguishes them from those who NEVER believed, which are described as unbelievers.

The simple fact is we do not find a third description of people as it relates to faith and salvation. Believers - unbelievers. No third parties spoken of.

Well, one will find the 3rd description if they look in the Bible.