JohnDB
Member
He knows them better than I. Ask him.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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"Believe" in the present tense
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Jim Parker
Member
Nope. I taught English. (And public speaking, and communications, and economics, and sociology...and Bible and theology)
I TOOK Greek in Seminary, but I'm no expert.
BUt I do remember the Prof saying that Koine Greek (the Greek of the NT) is the Greek of the market place and not a highly technical language. He called it "I seem 'im when 'e done it." Greek and discouraged anyone from basing doctrine on the grammar particularly since Greek grammar does not parallel English grammar.
Here, I find people who have not studied Greek but who have discovered an on-line source for "Teach yourself Biblical Greek" using that source to support theological positions. It's a bit like me telling my mechanic how to fix the thingamajig on the car because I found a "DIY Auto Mechanics" source on line.
iakov the fool
I'm not clear as to your post. What, specifically, are the "words that muddle the simple gospel" in the OP? in fact, the OP didn't address the gospel message.FreeGrace I will read and re-read a few times2 at a quick reading ( which is not fair) it reads like a lot of words that muddle the simple gospel .. back house hold chores for now
The point of the OP is that the present tense does not mean continuous action for the rest of one's life. It means either:
1. repeated action in the present, or
2. continuous action in the present.
The Greek grammar of the present tense means "in the present" as in "currently", or "now". Not "now and forever" as some are trying to claim it means.
The claim that one is only saved as long as they "continuously believe" is false. The link provided supports that.
The link provided in the OP is in English. For those who don't read Greek.FreeGrace Second and third reading .. just as many words as need to not say anything definitive ... So i will leave this discussion of greek to you guys and be thankful God knew i would need His Word in English..
OK. But I don't understand how "sex" is relevant to Greek tenses. Please explain.
The point of the OP is about the present tense use of "believe". So what's "more important" isn't relevant in discussing just the present tense meaning.
gr8grace3 said: ↑
Can you give us a link or a name of a Greek scholar who says this?
Can you give us a link or a name of a Greek scholar who says this?
Hopefully he'll provide some explanation of "mood and sex" in relation to Greek tenses. I do understand how "mood and sex" are related to each other, however.
JohnDB
Member
Sex of verbs relates back to the sex of nouns. You can have two verbs in a sentence of two sexes relating back to nouns that have two sexes. And the verbs relate back to their particular sexed nouns. IOW male verbs refer to actions of male nouns and female verbs relate back to female nouns.
In either case, tense is an afterthought in Greek. It's not an important aspect of the language. Basing a Theology on tense in a scripture is a really bad idea.
If a person believes yesterday, then no longer believes today, then he has returned to unbelieving.
The unbelieving will hart there part in the lake of fire.
- But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
You can spin that any way you want, with any kind of lexicon gymnastics that you find on the popular websites of the day, but it won't change the simple truth that if a person no longer believes, then they are no longer a believer.
- 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
- Those who continue to believe, are believers; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
- Those who believe yesterday, but do not believe today, are not believers today.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13
Those who are "connected to Him" must remain [present tense] connected to Him in the present, in order to have eternal life in the present.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Here are those who will receive eternal life: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
JLB
I read it... way above my reading level .. fancy words ... I hold to this verseThe link provided in the OP is in English. For those who don't read Greek.
Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Thanks for getting that my questions were not snarks but real remarks or questions
Nathan
Member
Ok, this is gonna sound really snarky, but I really do wonder how many people will die in the thought that God will accept or deny them based on words they read in the Bible.
Is this thread to study the Greek tenses or prove a theology based on them?
Is it really a thought that we can base faith from something we think rather than something we have?
Is there any doubt that a person has to have the Spirit of God in them in order to enter into eternal life?
So the question is, does a person who does not believe, have the Spirit of God in them?
Rather, can a person who has the Spirit of God in them, not believe?
If you answer those questions you might find out what 'tense' "believe" is.
Is this thread to study the Greek tenses or prove a theology based on them?
Is it really a thought that we can base faith from something we think rather than something we have?
Is there any doubt that a person has to have the Spirit of God in them in order to enter into eternal life?
So the question is, does a person who does not believe, have the Spirit of God in them?
Rather, can a person who has the Spirit of God in them, not believe?
If you answer those questions you might find out what 'tense' "believe" is.
How does this relate to the present tense of 'believe'?
Is tense an afterthought in the English? Doesn't seem so. The tense provides understanding of WHEN things occur. And the Greek has twice the number of tenses that English does. Doesn't seem like an afterthought to me.
Are there any citations of scholars who claim this about Greek tenses.
But, to the point, I'm not advocating basing anything in theology on the tense. In fact, the point of the OP is about not doing so, as a number of posters on this forum are doing.
That's not how the Bible describes one who no longer believes. But if there's any verse that does describe a "former believer" as an unbeliever, please share.
What I do know is what the Bible says about those who fall away from the faith: the Greek word for "fall away" is 'apostesontai', from which we get the English word "apostate". It is a form of the Greek word 'aphistemi'. It means to 'depart from', 'to desert', or 'leave behind'.
But it there are any verses that clearly depict those who have departed the faith, meaning they no longer believe (the English definition of an apostate), please share.
Sure. Those who never believed.
In fact, it's your opinion that spins the Word beyond its meaning.
I'll wait for any verse that describes or calls a former believer an unbeliever. I don't base any theology on opinions.
What words in these 2 verses says that falling away or believing for a while results in loss of salvation?
I'm waiting for any verse that calls a former believer an unbeliever.
I fully agree that all believers may continue to believe. It would be ridiculous to encourage anyone to quit believing.
I'm always amazed to see these verses inserted in any discussion about conditional security. This is what the Pharisees thought. That they could actually "by patient continuance in doing good" receive eternal life.
If that were true, then Jesus Christ died for nothing. Is that your theology? If not, how can Jesus Christ's sacrifice have any meaning IF one "by patient continuance in doing good" receive eternal life??
In fact, this is what Jesus said to them who believed this: John 5:39-40
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Unless questions just drip with snarkiness, I always take questions as a legitimate means of gaining understanding. And I always do my best to answer questions.
I think that those who consider the Bible as God's means of communicating with humanity believe that God's acceptance of them is based on what the Bible says about how God accepts people. Which is strictly on His basis. Not what we want it to be.
It's to show that some have made claims about the present tense in relation to the verb 'believe' which isn't true.
How do we have what the Bible says is available? By believing what the Bible says about it.
Consider Paul's question to the Galatian believers:
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
So, how does one receive the Holy Spirit? By believing the gospel?
No. But the important follow-up question is this: can one who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit ever lose the Spirit? Even the action of grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't do that, as Eph 4:30 indicates: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
If they NEVER believed, they never received the Holy Spirit. If they EVER believed, they are sealed IN HIM with the Spirit, for the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14
There are no verses that say that one indwelt with the Holy Spirit cannot fall away from believing. In fact, the Bible states just the opposite; that believers can fall away from the faith: Luke 8:13, 1 Tim 4:1.
Not really. Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved was to "believe". Guess what? Paul used the aorist tense, which is simply a point in time, or simple occurrence.
JohnDB
Member
Tense of a verb in English is a primary part of speech.
Tenses in Greek are an afterthought...not primary even though there are so many of them.
Mood and sex are primary in Greek due to the construction of their language.
It's an oddity...but really true.
We have our own idioms of speech.
Frog in our throats,
Drive on a parkway and parking on a driveway to name a few.
There's no true Greek scholar who claims anything different about tense than what I and Jim Parker have said. (And I've spoken personally with several)
Only upon a rare occasion does it truly matter. One such location in scripture where tense matters (because it is always wrong in English) is John 1:12.
In English John 1:12 is written in past tense. But in the Early Latin/Greek John wrote this in it actually is all three tenses at the same time. And if you study this one verse on how nouns, ajectives, and adverbs all work together to form this tense it will become clear as to what we are saying.
Jim Parker
Member
SO what?
One link supports it another debunks it. It's like dueling "proof texts."
Nouns and verbs with gender are not common to those who have never learned any languages who do.spanish has nouns we it genders but not tenses or verbs.