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"Believe" in the present tense

1 John 5:10 (NASB) The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

1+1=2

1 who has not believed.
1 who believes

which one is the hypothetical exbeliever you speak of?

I speak of those who believe for a while, in which they were a believer, then returned to unbelief, and unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Those who believe for a while then later unbelief sets in because of the deceitfulness of sin, and they depart from Christ, the living God.

Unbelief that comes in after you believe, and causes you to depart from Christ, the living God.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3;12-19

  • So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Not unbelief as in never believed, like you claim, but unbelief as in believed for a while, then later turned away in unbelief.



JLB
 
How about this:

What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?

hint: John 10:28

simple question. simple answer.
We live in a world of sound bites ... little quips taken from full speeches .. put together in a fashion designed to form the out look of the reporter not always the speaker . The Word of God is from Genesis through The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Sound bites often distort the message... ( note my siggy)
We are asked to look at hint John 10:28, as if John 10:28 is all the Word has to say about eternal life. Yet we all know that is not so..
Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse... Thankful we have them , you bet, while remembering the context. The first context being the WHOLE of His WORD..
 
Why do you guys even post in this fashion? You post requirements are so damning even YOU can't achieve what you ay Jesus asked for.

Let me ask you....have you forgiven everyone who has sinned against you? They say if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do you really think the bible is saying what you say it's saying concerning Mt 6:14-15?

Yes. I have forgiven everyone who has trespassed against me. I've been trained to forgive. It comes with constant practice. Just do it, again and again and again.
 
We live in a world of sound bites ... little quips taken from full speeches .. put together in a fashion designed to form the out look of the reporter not always the speaker . The Word of God is from Genesis through The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Sound bites often distort the message... ( note my siggy)
We are asked to look at hint John 10:28, as if John 10:28 is all the Word has to say about eternal life. Yet we all know that is not so..
Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse... Thankful we have them , you bet, while remembering the context. The first context being the WHOLE of His WORD..

Well said Reba!!! :salute
 
Not unbelief as in never believed, like you claim, but unbelief as in believed for a while, then later turned away in unbelief.
So a third type then, even though you said there were two types on Earth???

You've not presented any Biblical Texts that speak of this third type of person on Earth; a believer in Christ Jesus, once having this testimony in himself that is, then 'returning' to unbelief in this testimony (much less losing his salvation as a result). And again, if you did, it would conflict with 1 John 5:10.

1 John 5:10 (NASB) The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

This is the original Text in question that I posted for your comment, which you avoided, yet should address per the rules of this forum with an explanation of how it can be consistent with your 'exbeliever' idea (third type), versus pitting your additions to separate Texts against what's clearly and plainly stated in John's 1st epistle. That is unless you simply prefer to leave your case Biblically weak and logically fallacious as with the other points and questions I've posted to you, which you consistently avoid answering too.

Yet You stated⬇️
The two types of people on the earth:

  1. Those who do not believe
  2. Those who believe

1 John 5:10 and I agree with your comment above⬆️ Yet this verse and I say those who do not believe in the testimony of Christ Jesus (the Son of God) has not believed in this testimony concerning His Son (ever).

Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These "have no root" during this time of joy. Yet your hypothetical exbeliever in Christ are those who have root (had the testimony concerning His Son that John speaks of) in himself at one time, yet losses it. That's simply not possible according to 1 John 5:10 nor Jesus' own interpretation of the parable (versus your interpretation):

Matthew 13:21, 23 (LEB) But he does not have a root in himself, but lasts only a little while, and when affliction or persecution happens because of the word, immediately he falls away.
...
But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”

No wonder the one soil who heard the word yet had "no root" fell away. He was NOT the one who had understanding (testimony) in himself. Please refer to 1 John 5:10 where he is an obvious type 2 who "has not believed" in the testimony concerning His Son nor had the root in himself. Yes, he believed 'something' "for a while", per the Text. But it sure wasn't a belief with any understanding (nor root), also per the Text.
This Text doesn't support your claims.

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?

Did this generation believe (obey) the testimony of God or did they indeed disobey/disbelieve/rebell "always" in their heart because they did not know His ways (His testimony)??? [no need to answer]

Hebrews 3:10 Therefore I was angry with this generation, and I said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they do not know my ways.’

Once again, this Text does not support your case. Indeed, None do.

1 John 5:9-10 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
 
So a third type then, even though you said there were two types on Earth???

You've not presented any Biblical Texts that speak of this third type of person on Earth; a believer in Christ Jesus, once having this testimony in himself that is, then 'returning' to unbelief in this testimony (much less losing his salvation as a result). And again, if you did, it would conflict with 1 John 5:10.

1 John 5:10 (NASB) The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

This is the original Text in question that I posted for your comment, which you avoided, yet should address per the rules of this forum with an explanation of how it can be consistent with your 'exbeliever' idea (third type), versus pitting your additions to separate Texts against what's clearly and plainly stated in John's 1st epistle. That is unless you simply prefer to leave your case Biblically weak and logically fallacious as with the other points and questions I've posted to you, which you consistently avoid answering too.

Yet You stated⬇️


1 John 5:10 and I agree with your comment above⬆️ Yet this verse and I say those who do not believe in the testimony of Christ Jesus (the Son of God) has not believed in this testimony concerning His Son (ever).

Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These "have no root" during this time of joy. Yet your hypothetical exbeliever in Christ are those who have root (had the testimony concerning His Son that John speaks of) in himself at one time, yet losses it. That's simply not possible according to 1 John 5:10 nor Jesus' own interpretation of the parable (versus your interpretation):

Matthew 13:21, 23 (LEB) But he does not have a root in himself, but lasts only a little while, and when affliction or persecution happens because of the word, immediately he falls away.
...
But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”

No wonder the one soil who heard the word yet had "no root" fell away. He was NOT the one who had understanding (testimony) in himself. Please refer to 1 John 5:10 where he is an obvious type 2 who "has not believed" in the testimony concerning His Son nor had the root in himself. Yes, he believed 'something' "for a while", per the Text. But it sure wasn't a belief with any understanding (nor root), also per the Text.
This Text doesn't support your claims.



Did this generation believe (obey) the testimony of God or did they indeed disobey/disbelieve/rebell "always" in their heart because they did not know His ways (His testimony)??? [no need to answer]

Hebrews 3:10 Therefore I was angry with this generation, and I said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they do not know my ways.’

Once again, this Text does not support your case. Indeed, None do.

1 John 5:9-10 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
Great post; a concise and thorough apologetic
 
Does a branch continue to live when it is cast into the fire and burned?
No.

Do those cast into the lake of fire continue to experience suffering? Yes.

Your question is irrelevant to the issues of heaven or hell.

Yes, burned in the fire refers to loss of salvation.
This claim is untrue.

Jesus told us that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That is eternal security.

Those who are in Christ, have access to eternal life.
Again, untrue. Those who are in Christ HAVE eternal life. John 5:24
And those Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Those who are removed from Christ, no longer have access to eternal life which is only found in Christ.
You've never shown anyone who was "removed from Christ". What text teaches that one can be removed from Him?

In fact, Eph 1:13,14 teaches that union with Christ is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 10:28 is for those who do believe, who hear His voice and follow Him, are promised eternal life.
John 10:28 isn't a "promise for eternal life". It a promise for those who HAVE eternal life. They shall never perish.

No one has shown otherwise.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Yep. There it is, plainly stated.

Where is your scripture that says those who do not believe any longer, have eternal life?

Still waiting for it.
JLB
I've shown what the Bible says; those given eternal life shall never perish, in Jn 10:28.

Did Jesus add any conditions for recipients of eternal life, for never perishing, such as you've done?

No, He did not.
 
I asked this:
"How about this:
What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?
hint: John 10:28

simple question. simple answer."
We live in a world of sound bites ... little quips taken from full speeches .. put together in a fashion designed to form the out look of the reporter not always the speaker .
Is this really a suggestion that what I have "reported" that Jesus said wasn't really what Jesus said????

I am curious as to why this simple question was not answered. It wasn't a trick question, just a very simple question about what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

Why is John 10:28 being described as a "sound bite"? It's a direct statement of eternal security.

It's those who continue to believe that salvation can be lost that have created fake news about what Jesus said.

The Word of God is from Genesis through The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Sound bites often distort the message... ( note my siggy)
We are asked to look at hint John 10:28, as if John 10:28 is all the Word has to say about eternal life.
Let me please point out that IF any other verse in the Bible says anything different than what Jesus said about eternal security in Jn 10:28, then the Bible is contradicted. Is that your position? It's sure not mine.

Yet we all know that is not so..
Again, if there are ANY verses in Scripture that teach loss of salvation, then we cannot believe what Jesus said in Jn 10:28.

Loss of salvation is incompatible with John 10:28.
 
So a third type then, even though you said there were two types on Earth???

Exactly. That's what I said.

Two types.

You either believe or you don't.

There is no Third type.


JLB
 
Why is John 10:28 being described as a "sound bite"? It's a direct statement of eternal security.
John 10:28-29
It's only a Direct Statement of "Eternal Security" if Jesus was talking about the future of those that are Written in the Book of Life, that His Father has given to Him/Jesus. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand, because His Father is greater than all.

God Bless
 
I asked this:
"How about this:
What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?
hint: John 10:28

simple question. simple answer."

Is this really a suggestion that what I have "reported" that Jesus said wasn't really what Jesus said????

I am curious as to why this simple question was not answered. It wasn't a trick question, just a very simple question about what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

Why is John 10:28 being described as a "sound bite"? It's a direct statement of eternal security.

It's those who continue to believe that salvation can be lost that have created fake news about what Jesus said.


Let me please point out that IF any other verse in the Bible says anything different than what Jesus said about eternal security in Jn 10:28, then the Bible is contradicted. Is that your position? It's sure not mine.


Again, if there are ANY verses in Scripture that teach loss of salvation, then we cannot believe what Jesus said in Jn 10:28.

Loss of salvation is incompatible with John 10:28.

No not a suggestion that you , did anything... Simply stating my views on what i have been reading..
the question asked was answered ... others are welcome to disagree with my answer..
What i do read in your posts is a double standard... you use segments of passages which you believe proves your points while not accepting the same from other members.
 
John 10:28-29
It's only a Direct Statement of "Eternal Security" if Jesus was talking about the future of those that are Written in the Book of Life, that His Father has given to Him/Jesus. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand, because His Father is greater than all.

God Bless
It's a direct statement about eternal security for ALL to whom He gives eternal life. He said so clearly.

Of course all who have been given eternal life ARE written into the book of life.
 
No not a suggestion that you , did anything... Simply stating my views on what i have been reading..
the question asked was answered ... others are welcome to disagree with my answer..
I asked this:
"I asked this:
"How about this:
What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?
hint: John 10:28
simple question. simple answer."
Is this really a suggestion that what I have "reported" that Jesus said wasn't really what Jesus said????
I am curious as to why this simple question was not answered. It wasn't a trick question, just a very simple question about what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

Why is John 10:28 being described as a "sound bite"? It's a direct statement of eternal security.

It's those who continue to believe that salvation can be lost that have created fake news about what Jesus said.

Let me please point out that IF any other verse in the Bible says anything different than what Jesus said about eternal security in Jn 10:28, then the Bible is contradicted. Is that your position? It's sure not mine.

Again, if there are ANY verses in Scripture that teach loss of salvation, then we cannot believe what Jesus said in Jn 10:28.

Loss of salvation is incompatible with John 10:28."

If there was an answer, I missed it. Even after reading the post over and over.

What i do read in your posts is a double standard... you use segments of passages which you believe proves your points while not accepting the same from other members.
How is John 10:28 not directly clear about eternal security?

Those given eternal life shall never perish. It couldn't be any more clear.

Where are the so-called clear verses about losing salvation? Nowhere to be found. Every verse provided has to be assumed to mean loss of salvation.

None come out and say it.

But, given John 10:28, why isn't it clear to all that IF there WERE any verses that out and out claimed that salvation could be lost, would show the Bible to be internally contradicted?

Is the Bible internally contradicted? Does it teach that salvation can and cannot be lost?
 
It's a direct statement about eternal security for ALL to whom He gives eternal life. He said so clearly.

Of course all who have been given eternal life ARE written into the book of life.
The Book of Life is opened in Revelation 20:12 & the outcome of those not written in "The Book of Life" is found in Revelation 20:15

Since I don't know who is written in this "The Book of Life" then what is our choices?
nobody is (OSNAS)?
or
everybody is(OSAS)?

We read Scripture applied to ourselves in the present tense
or
We read Scripture applied to everybody else in the present tense

God Bless
 
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