"Believe" in the present tense

[reba]

FreeGrace keep repeating the same thing over and over ..

I do thank you so very much for the teaching/learning i have gained from these discussion...

 

[JLB]

How is John 10:28 not directly clear about eternal security?

Because the condition for eternal life is believe.

The condition for sheep qualified as sheep, is hearing His Voice, following Him, knowing Him.

Those conditions which are summed up as: Believing are for the person to do, not the Lord.

The Lord doesn't do the believing for the person.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

My Sheep:

• hear My voice
• I know them
  
• they follow Me

The result of meeting these conditions: And I give them eternal life.

You can not separate the result, from the condition.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.


Those who meet these conditions, can look forward to receiving eternal life at the resurrection of life.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29




JLB

 

[chessman]

Two types.

You either believe or you don't.

There is no Third type.

Yep. That's right.
And Bible believers also know that the one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.

1 John 5:10 (LEB) The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.
​

You're right, there is no third type available to us Bible believers who know that we actually have eternal life now, not later. Some people make claims that there really are those third types 'who believe for a while, in which they were a believer, then returned to unbelief' and lose eternal life. Odd really. Even though John clearly says the one who does not believe God has not believed in the testimony concerning His Son. I guess those people are the ones that do not know that we have eternal life and they only wish for it at their death and wish others do not have it at their death.

 

[markathome]

3rd type
Revelation 3:5 Jesus Christ Speaking here!
'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not Erase his Name from the Book of Life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

John 10:28-29
It's only a Direct Statement of "Eternal Security" if Jesus was talking about the future of those that are Written in the Book of Life, that His Father has given to Him/Jesus. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand, because His Father is greater than all.

Name in the Book of Life equals eternal life.
Name blotted out of the Book of Life equals no eternal life.
Name not in the Book of Life equals no eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Book of Life is opened in Revelation 20:12 & the outcome of those not written in "The Book of Life" is found in Revelation 20:15

Correct.

Since I don't know who is written in this "The Book of Life" then what is our choices?

You don't know if your name is there??

The Bible indicates whose names are in that book; everyone who has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. All of them have been given eternal life and Jesus said they shall never perish in John 10:28.

nobody is (OSNAS)?
or
everybody is(OSAS)?

Not following your line of questioning.

What I do follow is what the Bible says about those having eternal life; "he who believes HAS eternal life". John 5:24

We read Scripture applied to ourselves in the present tense
or
We read Scripture applied to everybody else in the present tense

God Bless

Again, I do not follow this.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace keep repeating the same thing over and over ..

I do thank you so very much for the teaching/learning i have gained from these discussion...

Repetition is the key to learning. I'm hoping that those who think salvation can be lost will gain from my repetition of what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"How is John 10:28 not directly clear about eternal security?"

Because the condition for eternal life is believe.

John 10:28 is beyond meeting that condition. Jesus said "I GIVE THEM eternal life". This means that they have already met the condition of believing in Him.

The result or outcome of receiving eternal life is that they shall never perish, said Jesus in that verse.

The condition for sheep qualified as sheep, is hearing His Voice, following Him, knowing Him.

Again, John 10:28 is beyond the condition for being His sheep.

The Lord doesn't do the believing for the person.

I agree with you.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

Clear as a bell: Jesus gives His sheep (believers) eternal life, and He then says they shall never perish.

My Sheep:

• hear My voice
• I know them
  
• they follow Me

The result of meeting these conditions: And I give them eternal life.

So, as I have pointed out, those given eternal life already meet the condition for being a recipient of eternal life.

You can not separate the result, from the condition.

Where have I tried to separate them??

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

The point remains; there are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to never perish. That is eternal security.

Those who meet these conditions, can look forward to receiving eternal life at the resurrection of life.

Here's the switcheroo that isn't permitted. Here, you're trying to force conditions for being a sheep as conditions for never perishing.

But that is wrong. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to never perish.

Jesus does the giving. The result OF THE GIVING is they shall never perish.

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

We're discussing John 10:28. What does this have to do with that verse?

Please include some explanation when quoting verses. As it is, I have no idea what your point is.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10:28-29
It's only a Direct Statement of "Eternal Security" if Jesus was talking about the future of those that are Written in the Book of Life, that His Father has given to Him/Jesus. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand, because His Father is greater than all.

In John 5:24 Jesus said "he who believes HAS eternal life". That would obviously mean WHEN one first believes is WHEN one first HAS etrneal life, right? Of course. How could it be otherwise, without any verse saying eternal life is obtained some time AFTER first believing?

So, doesn't it make sense that WHEN one first believes, and is given eternal life, their name would be in the book of life? Yes.

Name in the Book of Life equals eternal life.
Name blotted out of the Book of Life equals no eternal life.
Name not in the Book of Life equals no eternal life.

The verse in Revelation about name being blotted out is a literary technique called a litotes. Which means: "ironical understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of its contrary (e.g., you won't be sorry, meaning you'll be glad)."

If John was meaning that eternal life can be lost, taken away, etc, then Jesus' words in John 10:28 are meaningless, at the least.

 

[reba]

I wonder what the word follow means ?
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
According to Strong's
G190
ἀκολουθέω
akoloutheō
ak-ol-oo-theh'-o
From G1 (as a particle of union) and κέλευθος keleuthos (a road); properly to be in the same way with, that is, to accompany (specifically as a disciple): - follow, reach.

Interesting....
is follow a one time thing or does the word follow imply to accompany ...
Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Joh_12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

1Ti_6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
2Ti_2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

 

[markathome]

1*The Book of Life is opened in Revelation 20:12
& the outcome of those not written in "The Book of Life" is found in Revelation 20:15
2*Who's name is written in the Book of Life has Eternal Life/Security
ONLY when The Book of Life is opened in Revelation 20:12
3*There are names written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, since before the world was even formed!
4*Jesus Christ Can Add your name to the Book of Life.
5*Jesus Christ Can Subtract your name from the Book of Life.

John 10:28-29 is a direct statement of Eternal Life.
It's only a Direct Statement of "Eternal Life/Security" if Jesus was talking about the future of those that are Written in the Book of Life, that His Father has given to Him/Jesus. No one can snatch them out of Jesus Father’s hand, because His Father is greater than all."

1st Type aka I will NOT BLOT his name from the book of life for he who overcomes.
Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

2nd Type aka I will BLOT out his name from the book of life for iniquity.
Psalm 69:27-28 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness. May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

3rd Type aka they Sin Not & their name written in the book of life.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

4th Type aka 666 stuff & their name NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

If you accept the Mark, Jesus Can Blot out your name from the Book of Life which He/Jesus Wrote in there?
If you accept the Mark, Jesus Can Blot out your name from the Book of Life which was written from the foundation of the world.
If you accept the Animal Sacrifice System in the place of Jesus's Sacrifice, Jesus Can Blot out your name from the Book of Life which was written from the foundation of the world.

We only have "Eternal Life/Security" because it's in Jesus's Hand. He decides not you or me or our bible verses we change into something else to put the Power back into our own Hands. The Power is in Jesus's Hand.

God Bless

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10:28-29 is a direct statement of Eternal Life.

It applies specifically to those Jesus gives eternal life.

It's only a Direct Statement of "Eternal Life/Security" if Jesus was talking about the future of those that are Written in the Book of Life, that His Father has given to Him/Jesus.

Jesus' words are clear enough: "I give them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH."

We only have "Eternal Life/Security" because it's in Jesus's Hand. He decides not you or me or our bible verses we change into something else to put the Power back into our own Hands. The Power is in Jesus's Hand.

God Bless

Or course eternal security is in Jesus' hand. He's the One who gives eternal life. And He's the One who said those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

This means that everyone who has been given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

 

[markathome]

This means that everyone who has been given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

They Perish in Revelation 20:15, so it's a Promise/Prophecy of something that happens in the Future.

 

[gr8grace3]

Because the condition for eternal life is believe.

The condition for sheep qualified as sheep, is hearing His Voice, following Him, knowing Him.

Those conditions which are summed up as: Believing are for the person to do, not the Lord.

The Lord doesn't do the believing for the person.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

My Sheep:

• hear My voice
• I know them
  
• they follow Me

The result of meeting these conditions: And I give them eternal life.

You can not separate the result, from the condition.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.


Those who meet these conditions, can look forward to receiving eternal life at the resurrection of life.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29




JLB

JLB.........I am not a calvinist and do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ believes for us or saves us before we actually FREELY believe in Him. In fact, I loathe the calvinist "predestined to believe/salvation" concept more than I loathe the Armin position of loss of salvation.

If the Lord Jesus Christ has saved us(the moment we FREELY trust in Him)..............He keeps us saved. He bought us with a(HIS) price and we are not our own after He saves us. We are His. His body. His new creation.

And we use our God given freewill to advance in His plan or not advance in His plan for our lives. But our salvation is secure in Him.

And It should be TOTALLY obvious that Freegrace nor I are arguing from the calvinistic FALSE bent. He has stated that over and over and over and over and over and over.

We FREELY choose Christ. We FREELY choose to follow and advance in Him....or not. But He FREELY chose to save ALL those who simply.....................BELIEVE..........FOREVER.

 

[reba]

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Cygnus]

JLB.........I am not a calvinist and do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ believes for us or saves us before we actually FREELY believe in Him. In fact, I loathe the calvinist "predestined to believe/salvation" concept more than I loathe the Armin position of loss of salvation.

If the Lord Jesus Christ has saved us(the moment we FREELY trust in Him)..............He keeps us saved. He bought us with a(HIS) price and we are not our own after He saves us. We are His. His body. His new creation.

And we use our God given freewill to advance in His plan or not advance in His plan for our lives. But our salvation is secure in Him.

And It should be TOTALLY obvious that Freegrace nor I are arguing from the calvinistic FALSE bent. He has stated that over and over and over and over and over and over.

We FREELY choose Christ. We FREELY choose to follow and advance in Him....or not. But He FREELY chose to save ALL those who simply.....................BELIEVE..........FOREVER.

I wish you threw in some scripture to support your post. Explain just how this free choice theology works. Currently I see what you wrote as your opinion and without scripture....not biblical.
Just for the record, I see all believers..freely choosing Christ. All though I see it somewhat slightly different that you.

 

[Cygnus]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

How true.
So, this sheep is following Christ. Why? because the sheep heard jesus' voice. Jesus knows the sheep...and gives the sheep eternal life. Because the sheep met the qualifications Jesus gave the sheep eternal life. Into the future the sheep will never perish because they have been given eternal life. Eternal life means just that. Eternal.
As said above the sheep have met the conditions. They have eternal life. Eternal life is something that can't be changed or taken away or else it can't be called eternal life. Once given to you...you have it forever. That's one of the reasons that makes it eternal.

 

[Nathan]

How true.
So, this sheep is following Christ. Why? because the sheep heard jesus' voice. Jesus knows the sheep...and gives the sheep eternal life. Because the sheep met the qualifications Jesus gave the sheep eternal life. Into the future the sheep will never perish because they have been given eternal life. Eternal life means just that. Eternal.
As said above the sheep have met the conditions. They have eternal life. Eternal life is something that can't be changed or taken away or else it can't be called eternal life. Once given to you...you have it forever. That's one of the reasons that makes it eternal.

Actually, eternal life is eternal because it has no beginning and no end. Therefore it cannot be a "possession" of a non-eternal human. However, since God is eternal, when His Spirit lives in us, He 'gives' us life - and that life He gives us is eternal. It is not a possession of the created, its a giving of life from the Creator.

That is why Paul said -
Rom 8:9-11
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul was clear that it is the Spirit that is life in a believer, it is the Spirit that gives life to us when dwelling in us. If the Spirit does not dwell in you, there is no eternal life in you - no matter what you have said or done. You are a human, and humans cannot be eternal.

 

[Cygnus]

Actually, eternal life is eternal because it has no beginning and no end.

Eternal can be seen as looking eternally into the future only. The nuance of the term eternal isn't limited to your sole choice.

 

[Nathan]

Eternal can be seen as looking eternally into the future only. The nuance of the term eternal isn't limited to your sole choice.

I do not think we have the right to determine what eternal is or is not.

Eternal is set. It means it always is. Only God is eternal, He had no begining and no end.

Our life we receive comes from the Spirit of God living in us, the same Spirit that Jesus sends to us - the reason He said this-
Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

He did not say "I gave them" or "I have given them" - Jesus says He 'gives' them life. That is because those who hear and follow Jesus are receiving life from Him. Eternal life cannot be disconnected from God.

This is typified with the well/spring analogy Jesus made in John 4. We can make the same analogy today.

If you were thirsty and I said I would give you eternal water if you came to me, then you came and took a drink of the water I had, but then left and went your way, you would not have the eternal water I said I would give you.

However, if you came and drank the water, did not leave to go your own way, I would continually give you water.

A person has to understand they are not eternal. You cannot be eternal. That was the desire of satan, and it is the same lie he tries to pass off onto us.

 

[Cygnus]

I do not think we have the right to determine what eternal is or is not.

Eternal is set. It means it always is. Only God is eternal, He had no begining and no end.

Our life we receive comes from the Spirit of God living in us, the same Spirit that Jesus sends to us - the reason He said this-
Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

He did not say "I gave them" or "I have given them" - Jesus says He 'gives' them life. That is because those who hear and follow Jesus are receiving life from Him. Eternal life cannot be disconnected from God.

This is typified with the well/spring analogy Jesus made in John 4. We can make the same analogy today.

If you were thirsty and I said I would give you eternal water if you came to me, then you came and took a drink of the water I had, but then left and went your way, you would not have the eternal water I said I would give you.

However, if you came and drank the water, did not leave to go your own way, I would continually give you water.

A person has to understand they are not eternal. You cannot be eternal. That was the desire of satan, and it is the same lie he tries to pass off onto us.

Nathan...let me repeat myself....Eternal can be seen as looking eternally into the future only. The nuance of the term eternal isn't limited to your sole choice.

Eternal is used here...
Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Your understanding of the word eternal would have this eternal place of punishment always existing from eternity past.

Personally I'd reconsider your single usage..limited view...of the word.