"Believe" in the present tense

[gr8grace3]

I wish you threw in some scripture to support your post. Explain just how this free choice theology works. Currently I see what you wrote as your opinion and without scripture....not biblical.
Just for the record, I see all believers..freely choosing Christ. All though I see it somewhat slightly different that you.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47
~~~~~~~
John 16~~8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Rom 1:19~~because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

John 12:32~~
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

~~~~~

Mark 6:6~~
And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

 

[Cygnus]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The present tense shows an action ongoing, sustained. This logically rules out the person who stops believing from having everlasting life.

When Jesus was talking to those people Jesus was talking to the lost......NOT the saved.

Seabass, your theology has been show to disinegrate on so many levels it's amazing you still try to push it.

 

[Cygnus]

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47
~~~~~~~
John 16~~8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Rom 1:19~~because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

John 12:32~~
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

~~~~~

Mark 6:6~~
And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

You do undertand that you can't believe unless God grants you the ability to believe and come to Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

I think that its not understood what eternal punishment is. I assure you, the 'eternal punishment' that people who are not in Christ will receive, has no beginning or end. Notice what your verse you quote states - "into". They will go "into" that eternal place.

So yes, eternal cannot be redefined by us to mean it has a beginning. Eternal has no beginning or end. Only God has eternal life.

Cygnus rolls his eyes at that reply.

 

[gr8grace3]

You do undertand that you can't believe unless God grants you the ability to believe and come to Christ.

Every person has the ability to believe. And every person has the ability to reject His Gospel. The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of unbelief. He misses NO ONE. John 16:9

Rom 1:19~~because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

John 12:32~~
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

This is why He wonders at our unbelief. He has done everything possible to convince us to choose Him.......except for ONE thing.....Force or elect us to believe.

 

[Cygnus]

Every person has the ability to believe. And every person has the ability to reject His Gospel. The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of unbelief. He misses NO ONE. John 6:9

Rom 1:19~~because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

John 12:32~~
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

This is why He wonders at our unbelief. He has done everything possible to convince us to choose Him.......except for ONE thing.....Force or elect us to believe.

Then answer this question....why would a person choose Christ or reject Christ?

I hear all this "free-will" talk, but that simple question is never answered.

 

[gr8grace3]

Then answer this question....why would a person choose Christ or reject Christ?

I hear all this "free-will" talk, but that simple question is never answered.

Simple answer.

Choose Him~~Because they are convinced of the truth of the Gospel.(for a lot of us it comes from a state of brokenness from this evil world.)

Reject Him~~Pride/arrogance.

 

[chessman]

According to Rev.3:5, the one whose name is not erased is the one who overcomes. Its conditional.

Okay.

[It took me less than 10 seconds to copy/paste the verse so it can be read]

Revelation 3:5 He (singular) who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. ​

1. There is no conditional "if" in the verse.
2. It's a promise made to "the one who overcomes".
3. It says absolutely nothing about people who do not overcome (on way or the other).
4. It says absolutely nothing about ex-overcomers (one way or the other).

Do you understand the phrase "erase his name from the book of life" to mean lose of salvation (or lose of eternal life)?

 

[Seabass]

Unless you've actually read the book, you have no business commenting on it.

The comments I posted were not mine, but of someone else who dealt with Stanley's fallacies.

But you posted a excerpt from the book and anyone can make a comment on that.

 

[Seabass]

When Jesus was talking to those people Jesus was talking to the lost......NOT the saved.

Seabass, your theology has been show to disinegrate on so many levels it's amazing you still try to push it.

I am dealing with WHAT Jesus. WHO Jesus was speaking to does not change WHAT He said.

Your OSAS man made theology has you ignoring grammar, logic and context:

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Please prove how the pronoun "they" refers to anyone other that those that hear and follow Christ. If a Christian quits hearing and following Christ, then explain how he remains of the "they" of verse 28 when he is not hearing and following when the only antecendent of "they" are those that hear and follow.

 

[Cygnus]

I am dealing with WHAT Jesus. WHO Jesus was speaking to does not change WHAT He said.

Your OSAS man made theology has you ignoring grammar, logic and context:

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Please prove how the pronoun "they" refers to anyone other that those that hear and follow Christ. If a Christian quits hearing and following Christ, then explain how he remains of the "they" of verse 28 when he is not hearing and following when the only antecendent of "they" are those that hear and follow.

Seabass, you are preaching what I personally consider a false gospel. There is absolutly no salvation in your gospel....I don't want your gospel. I don't need your works based Gospel.

I am secure in the salvation Christ obtained for me. My Jesus choose me and my Jesus will keep me...NO MATTER WHAT. Nothing can snatch me from God the Fathers or Christ hand.
Perhaps you can be snatched from your Jesus' hands....but not my Jesus' hands.

 

[chessman]

John 3:18 (LEB) The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​

WRT John 3:18 Mr. Jackson said:

One does not come under the sentence of judgment so long as he continues his active faith in the Lord. The promise is conditional. The implication otherwise is as clear as can be.

Seabass: if one can quit believing yet still be saved, then that contradicts and undermines all the verses that require faithfulness on part of the Christian.

Dr. Blackwelder said:

pepisteuken,perfect tense, indicating permanent attitude of unbelief

Do you believe Dr. Blackwelder knows what the perfect tense verb within this Text implies?

Does it imply this one has believed and "quit believing" to use your words or does it imply this one "has not believed" just as the Text says?

 

[billybalke]

Okay.

[It took me less than 10 seconds to copy/paste the verse so it can be read]

Revelation 3:5 He (singular) who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. ​

1. There is no conditional "if" in the verse.
2. It's a promise made to "the one who overcomes".
3. It says absolutely nothing about people who do not overcome (on way or the other).
4. It says absolutely nothing about ex-overcomers (one way or the other).

Do you understand the phrase "erase his name from the book of life" to mean lose of salvation (or lose of eternal life)?

The condition is in the word "overcomes". I understand the term salvation to mean when one meets the requirements of "what must I do to be saved Acts 2:37; 9:6 and 16:30.

Okay.

[It took me less than 10 seconds to copy/paste the verse so it can be read]

Revelation 3:5 He (singular) who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. ​

1. There is no conditional "if" in the verse.
2. It's a promise made to "the one who overcomes".
3. It says absolutely nothing about people who do not overcome (on way or the other).
4. It says absolutely nothing about ex-overcomers (one way or the other).

Do you understand the phrase "erase his name from the book of life" to mean lose of salvation (or lose of eternal life)?

 

[markathome]

We went from meat to milk & now we back on dog food again & the problem is that it's rotten and I wouldn't even feed it to my dogs.

God Bless

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

Can someone who has been given eternal life perish?"

Some would consider Jesus as an Indian giver.

Sadly, it would seem so.

It's also instructive that my question hasn't been touched by any of that sect.

Wiki describes an Indian giver as....""Indian giver" is an American pejorative expression, used to describe a person who gives a "gift" and later wants it back, or who expects something of equivalent worth in return for the item."

Sure seems to describe their doctrine of soteriology.

 

[FreeGrace]

A verse does not have to have the exact words "stop believing" for it to disprove your point.

The fact the verbs hear and believe in John 5:24 show the ones, and only ones, to have everlasting life are the ones that have an ongoing sustained hearing and believing

Gonna stop the sentence right here. There is NOTHING in the Greek present tense that even suggests "ongoing/sustained" action in order for the results of that action to be continued.

But since the claim is made here, please cite a legitimate source that says this.

which logically rules out anyone who quit a present tense state of hearing and believing from having everlasting life.

There is zero logic in this.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What I "attack" is the abuse of a certain Greek tense and bad grammar. Of course abusing a tense and bad grammar challenges my position, but since the abuse and bad grammar are the problems, the challenge is fake.

It actually says "he that hears My word and believes on Him that sent me, HAS eternal life"."

But the issue here is where does it say "he that does not heareth and does not believeth on Him hath everlasting life?"

The point I've made about John 5:24 is that "he who believes (right now - present tense) HAS (as in possesses) eternal life. So we can KNOW that WHEN one first believes is WHEN they also possess eternal life.

Now, move on to John 10:28. Jesus says He gives eternal life and they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish.

So, from the MOMENT WHEN one first believes, they are promised BY JESUS HIMSELF that they shall never perish.

It doesn't but you are trying to make this impossibility a possibility and have to ignore the grammar in the process. You are trying to avoid the fact that one who goes from believing and having everlasting life to unbelief and not having everlasting life. for that kills your OSAS argument.

Why continue to assume that if one ceases to believe, they cease to have eternal life?? Where is the text that teaches this?

And isn't it rather obvious that IF there were such a verse, it would directly contradict what Jesus promises in John 10:28?

So, according to the view that ceasing to believe means ceasing to have eternal life, and therefore, PERISHING, that view is in direct opposition to what Jesus promised; which is that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

But the issue is about the person who quits believing, that casts away his faith.

There is no such issue. Jesus covered that in John 10:28 by the FACT that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

He is one that does NOT presently hear therefore does not have everlasting life.

Please do some research and learn what the present tense means and DOESN'T MEAN. Your claims about it are false.

I think all are in agreement here that the one who believes and continues to believe has everlasting life.

There are NO verses that indicate that one must continue to believe in order to never perish.

No such condition was included in Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

If that was the truth, His promise would look a lot like this:
"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they shall never perish."
This is actually what He promised:
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

Why add to what Jesus NEVER said?

The issue is what about the one that quits believing. John5:24 or John 6:27.28 do not promise everlasting life to this now unbeliever.

Please point out in John 10:28 ANY condition Jesus put on the recipient of eternal life.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The comments I posted were not mine, but of someone else who dealt with Stanley's fallacies.

But you posted a excerpt from the book and anyone can make a comment on that.

I understand that. You can comment on a book you've never read. That's why I ignored the content. I don't care what you can find on the net. I can find ANY position I want on the net. Is Chuck Colson a heretic? I can find that on the net easily. How about John Piper? Yep. I can find that.

How about RC Sproul? He holds to eternal security too. But I'll bet I can find someone who thinks he's a heretic too.

 

[FreeGrace]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The present tense shows an action ongoing, sustained.

No it doesn't show that at all. This is just an erroneous misconception of the present tense. It means current action. Not sustained.

I challenge proof of this assumed "ongoing, sustained" action of the present tense from any legitimate source.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a believer quits believing then he becomes lost (losing eternal life) which refutes your OSAS argument.

How does this opinion, driven by only assumption, refute anything? There are no Bible verses that say what is being claimed.

In fact, Jesus was clear; those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28 That is eternal security.

No conditions on the recipients of eternal life.

You asked "When does Jesus give eternal life to people? Specifically?"

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Those that continue to hear and continue to follow are the ones that shall never perish.

My question was not answered. I asked WHEN specifically. It was not answered. And neither does v.27 or v.28 answer it.

The answer is found in John 5:24. "he who believes (right now) HAS eternal life (right now). That means when one FIRST believes is WHEN one first HAS eternal life. That's WHEN one receives eternal life.

Not AFTER a life of following Him. Isn't it obvious that ANYTHING that depends on "following Him" requires a lot of time?

Or did Jesus only specify a specific length of time; let's say, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? Doesn't that sound silly? Yes, it does. So if "following Him" is a condition or requirement for receiving eternal life, then He sure doesn't give it WHEN one first believes, since they haven't even started following Him yet. In fact, a person CAN'T be following Jesus UNTIL they are saved.

So your theory doesn't work and isn't supported from Scripture.

Eternal life is given WHEN one FIRST believes. And Jesus said they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish.