"Believe" in the present tense

[FreeGrace]

The issue is what if one quits confessing his sins, will he still be saved anyway?

Of course he will. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

No, just like the one that quits hearing and following per John 10:27,28 SHALL perish.

Your grasp of the present tense is erroneous.

So is salvation conditional or unconditional?

Depends on what is meant here.

Salvation is conditioned on faith in Christ. John 3:15,16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40. When the condition is met, salvation is given.

Salvation is unconditional after received. Jesus SAID those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions put upon recipients. Jn 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

Your argument fails for you have not yet produced a verse that says those that quit hearing and following shall not perish.

lol. The irony is that your argument fails for not having ANY verses that out and out say that salvation or eternal life can be lost.

otoh, Jesus very plainly said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

So there IS a proof text for eternal security. But many have chosen to disbelieve it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Then answer this question....why would a person choose Christ or reject Christ?

For the same reason a person would choose any thing over any other thing.

The reason everyone has an ability to believe in Christ is because God created humanity with an intellect with which to grasp concepts and make decisions regarding concepts.

That's why there are liberals and conservatives; Arminnians and Calvinists (and others, like me), etc.

I hear all this "free-will" talk, but that simple question is never answered.

Another reason everyone can believe is because Christ died for everyone, as 3 verses plainly say.

If not everyone had the ability to believe what God promises, then Christ would not have died for everyone.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your OSAS man made theology has you ignoring grammar, logic and context:

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I am amazed that any Christian would call eternal security a "man made theology" when Jesus specifically stated in Jn 10:28. He's more than a man. He is the God-man. And He taught eternal security very plainly.

Those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Are there any conditions to never perishing in that verse for recipients of eternal life? No.

 

[Cygnus]

The reason everyone has an ability to believe in Christ is because God created humanity with an intellect with which to grasp concepts and make decisions regarding concepts.

The reason the "free-willers" don't like to answer this question is because they realize they make that decision based upon life events.

In other words, they choose Jesus because their life has been favorable towards choosing Jesus or favorable for not choosing Jesus. They run the decision through life events, emotions..and say, yes or no.

To be honest I don't think anyone has the ability to choose Christ unles God chooses and lets you believe in Christ. John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."....unless God grants you the ability to choose Christ....you won't.

 

[markathome]

John 10:22-31 Jesus Answering his Accusers, they was beyond unbelievers but acting like A-Christ?

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, "How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

From this we pull a couple verses John 10:28-29 to make a Claim that Eternal Security is nothing but an Arguing point for OSAS? Did not the Accusers also Believe that they had the same Eternal Security given to them for following a couple of verses in the OT while missing the fine print?

This is Not the end of what Jesus Spoke concerning this matter within His New Contract, you need to read all the Fine Print!

Revelation 3:5 Jesus Christ Speaking here!
"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will NOT Erase his Name from the Book of Life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

• Name in the Book of Life equals eternal life.
• Name blotted out of the Book of Life equals no eternal life.
• Name not in the Book of Life equals no eternal life.

1. The Book of Life is opened in Revelation 20:12 & the outcome of those NOT written in "The Book of Life" is found in Revelation 20:15
2. Who's name is written in the Book of Life has Eternal Life/Security ONLY when The Book of Life is opened in Revelation 20:12
3. There are names written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, since before the world was even formed! Revelation 13:8 Revelation 17:8
   
4. Jesus Christ Can Add your name to the Book of Life.
5. Jesus Christ Can Subtract your name from the Book of Life. Revelation 3:5
   
6. God Can Subtract your name from the Book of Life. Revelation 22:19
   
   
   

1st Type aka I will NOT BLOT his name from the book of life for he who overcomes.
Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.'

• The one who is not erased is the one who "overcomes", its conditional. Revelation 3:12

2nd Type aka I will BLOT out his name from the book of life for iniquity.
Psalm 69:27-28 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness. May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

3rd Type aka God shall take his part out of the Book of Life
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the Words of the Book of this Prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are Written in this Book.

4th Type aka they Sin Not & their name written in the book of life.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

5th Type aka 666 stuff & their name NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

If you accept the Mark, Jesus Can Blot out your name from the Book of Life which He/Jesus Wrote in there?
If you Remove from the Words in Revelation, God will Blot out your name from the Book of Life which was written from the foundation of the world or even those added by Jesus.
If you accept the Animal Sacrifice System in the place of Jesus's Sacrifice, Jesus Can Blot out your name from the Book of Life which was written from the foundation of the world.

We only have "Eternal Life/Security" because it's in Jesus's Hand. He decides not you or me or our bible verses we change into something else to put the Power back into our own Hands. The Power is in Jesus's Hand.

God Bless

 

[Cygnus]

This is Not the end of what Jesus Spoke concerning this matter within His New Contract, you need to read all the Fine Print!

Weve read the fine print....what you want us to do is read what you wrote in-between the lines.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

What was the reason for Christ crucufixion ? Was it not for the judgment of sin for the whole world
John 3:18 " He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
What exactly does this verse state?
1. for he that believes,there is no condemnation
2. for the that believes not, he is already condemned,
Where does this condemnation come from seeing that he, man, has not yet been judge? or has he already been judged? The condemnation comes from his unbelief, not from what he does physically.

How do we move from unbelief to believing? Our old man is crucified with Christ, and no longer alive and in control. There will be some that will say that a believer can become an unbeliever and therefore lose salvation, but that is an impossibility seeing that we are kept by the power of God.
Colossians 3:3-4, " For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye shall also appear with him in glory."

 

[gr8grace3]

The reason the "free-willers" don't like to answer this question is because they realize they make that decision based upon life events.

In other words, they choose Jesus because their life has been favorable towards choosing Jesus or favorable for not choosing Jesus. They run the decision through life events, emotions..and say, yes or no.

To be honest I don't think anyone has the ability to choose Christ unles God chooses and lets you believe in Christ. John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."....unless God grants you the ability to choose Christ....you won't.

John 6 :65." Unless the Father 'has granted' it to him."

Look close at the verse. "has granted" is in the perfect tense, passive voice and subjunctive mood.

The perfect tense indicates that in eternity past The Father offered salvation to ALL mankind(He granted it in His plan for man.) The passive voice indicates that is by His Grace.And the subjunctive mood indicates that we come to Him by our own freewill or reject Him by our own freewill.

This throws believers for a loop............the angelic conflict tells us that we are totally free to choose God or reject God. We are witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ that we can freely choose Christ. Satan says that we can't and that the Lord Jesus Christ just picks and chooses who He will save. Satan believes that Christ didn't give Him a chance..............we are here to prove that ALL created beings have the chance at salvation..............................reveal His Grace and mercy to satan and the fallen angels and those who do not believe.

 

[JLB]

How true.
So, this sheep is following Christ. Why? because the sheep heard jesus' voice. Jesus knows the sheep...and gives the sheep eternal life. Because the sheep met the qualifications Jesus gave the sheep eternal life. Into the future the sheep will never perish because they have been given eternal life. Eternal life means just that. Eternal.
As said above the sheep have met the conditions. They have eternal life. Eternal life is something that can't be changed or taken away or else it can't be called eternal life. Once given to you...you have it forever. That's one of the reasons that makes it eternal.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

It doesn't say they themselves immediately have eternal life in which they at that moment will never perish, since we all know the apostles have died and will be resurrected at His coming.

• I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish

They shall refers to the future condition of the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of life and immortality.

In this life we who are one with Christ through believing, are one with the eternal life that is only found in Him.

• At the resurrection we will receiving immortality, like the angels.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Jesus plainly described this as coming forth in the resurrection of life, in John 5.

• will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


The sheep meet the conditions after a life of faithfully hearing and following, in which they will inherit eternal life.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:28-29

• shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

You guys need to reconcile the other verses and context, about this subject, not just a "part" of a verse.

• I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish
• shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
• for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
  
  

JLB

 

[chessman]

They shall refers to the future condition of the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of life and immortality.

In your opinion, when does "never" refer to?

 

[JLB]

If the Lord Jesus Christ has saved us(the moment we FREELY trust in Him)..............He keeps us saved. He bought us with a(HIS) price and we are not our own after He saves us. We are His. His body. His new creation.

And we use our God given freewill to advance in His plan or not advance in His plan for our lives. But our salvation is secure in Him.

I will agree that salvation is in Him, and those who remain connected to Him, are those who remain connected to the eternal life that is in Him.

Those who are in Him, then later become disconnected from Him, are those who become disconnected from the eternal life that is in Him.

The whole OSAS theory, must try and somehow persuade God's people that a person who is in Christ, then later becomes disconnected from Christ, still somehow has the same the same access to eternal life that that who are in Him have.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

People who are no in Christ, become connected to Him by believing.

If later they become disconnected from Him, they return to the same condition of being disconnected from Him before they believed.

There are two types of people on earth is this regard:

1. The believing
2. The unbelieving

Believe is the condition that is required for eternal life.

If a person believes for a while then no longer believes, they are no longer a believer.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

The condition is believe.

Believe = Saved

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• they should believe and be saved.

I honestly don't know how anyone could possibly think that a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still a believing person.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are not promised eternal life, but eternal death.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


If you have a scripture that teaches us the unbelieving have eternal life, or that unbelief results in eternal life then please share it with us.


So far, I have only seen that believing results in eternal life, not unbelieving.


JLB

 

[JLB]

In your opinion, when does "never" refer to?

Please post the scripture you are referring to, and the context, so I can examine what you are referring to.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

1. for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

• When a person receives immortality, nor can they die anymore

Of course we know that angels can not die, but being in the lake of fire for eternity and not being able to die, would not be good.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

• the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The reason the "free-willers" don't like to answer this question is because they realize they make that decision based upon life events.

In other words, they choose Jesus because their life has been favorable towards choosing Jesus or favorable for not choosing Jesus. They run the decision through life events, emotions..and say, yes or no.

I don't see how "life events" convicts one of sin. That is from the Holy Spirit. Yet, people can and do reject the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51

To be honest I don't think anyone has the ability to choose Christ unles God chooses and lets you believe in Christ.

I've not found any Scripture that teaches that God chooses who will believe, which is the foundation for the Calvinist doctrine of election.

I've studied all of the 3 Greek forms related to election; the noun ekloge, the verb eklegomai, and the adjective eklektos. What I found was that from all the references using the adjective, none of the 6 categories were chosen for salvation, but all of the categories were chosen for service.

John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."....unless God grants you the ability to choose Christ....you won't.

John 6:44, 45
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. [/QUOTE]
This verse is often used along side 6:65 to teach that God chooses who will believe.

However, consider the very next verse:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

We find that everyone is taught by God. But only all those who have heard AND learned will come to Jesus.

iow, in a large classroom (humanity) not everyone is paying attention. But those who have paid attention (listened and learned) will come to Jesus.

Instead of God choosing who will believe, the Bible tells us who God chooses to save, in 1 Cor 1:21- For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[Cygnus]

John 6 :65." Unless the Father 'has granted' it to him."

Look close at the verse. "has granted" is in the perfect tense, passive voice and subjunctive mood.

The perfect tense indicates that in eternity past The Father offered salvation to ALL mankind(He granted it in His plan for man.) The passive voice indicates that is by His Grace.And the subjunctive mood indicates that we come to Him by our own freewill or reject Him by our own freewill.

This throws believers for a loop............the angelic conflict tells us that we are totally free to choose God or reject God. We are witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ that we can freely choose Christ. Satan says that we can't and that the Lord Jesus Christ just picks and chooses who He will save. Satan believes that Christ didn't give Him a chance..............we are here to prove that ALL created beings have the chance at salvation..............................reveal His Grace and mercy to satan and the fallen angels and those who do not believe.

The verse says God gives us the ability. You can even back up several verses to the top of the thought and start reading.....you see the same concept presented again....God has to grant you the ability.

Secondly, we are not like the angels. They tell us nothing about why we believe or don't believe.

 

[Cygnus]

I don't see how "life events" convicts one of sin. That is from the Holy Spirit. Yet, people can and do reject the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51

I believe we have nothing to do with our salvation. I understand it is all God. (trinity)
We can't freely decide to choose Jesus because our soul is completely agains him.....in fact humans will always choose to reject Christ. They will choose to reject unless God gives them the ability to accept Jesus.

It's not a clever..believable argument that saves us or causes us to reject Christ like the "free-willers" want us o think. Rather it is pure God that quickens our dead spirit...calls us, drags us and gives us the ability to believe. Puts a new "heart" in us....SAVES us. When this happens we run to Christ with open arms.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe we have nothing to do with our salvation. I understand it is all God. (trinity)

I fully agree. The only thing we do is accept His gift by trusting what He has promised.

We can't freely decide to choose Jesus because our soul is completely agains him.....in fact humans will always choose to reject Christ.

This cannot be found in Scripture. Neither can be found the idea that our choice to believe is because God chose us to believe.

It's not a clever..believable argument that saves us or causes us to reject Christ like the "free-willers" want us o think.

Why did Paul write this?
Acts 18:4 - Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
2 Cor 5:11- Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

And why did King Agrippa say this?
Acts 26:28
Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"

To which Paul answered:
Acts 26:29 - Paul replied, "Short time or long — I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

Rather it is pure God that quickens our dead spirit...

Yes, He does this. But not before we believe. The "dead spirit" is not dead physically. It continues to think and act and make decisions.

calls us, drags us and gives us the ability to believe.

No one is dragged into belief.

Puts a new "heart" in us....SAVES us. When this happens we run to Christ with open arms.

Regeneration does not precede faith in Christ. I know the Calvinist doctrine, but I can't find it in Scripture.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Would you agree that the phrase "made us alive with Christ" is equivalent to the phrase "it is by grace you have been saved"?

I see the last phrase to be a clarification of the first phrase.

That said, consider Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

So, here we see that salvation is "through faith". iow, faith must be present in order for salvation to occur.

Or, salvation comes through faith.

What is clear is that salvation does not precede faith. Neither does regeneration.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Welcome to the Bible is a pretzel thread.

 

[chessman]

Please post the scripture you are referring to, and the context, so I can examine what you are referring to.

I refered to the Scripture you referred to when you said the following about it:

They shall refers to the future condition of the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of life and immortality.

Thus the linked quote of yours.

BTW, clicking the little up arrow in quoted replies takes you to the original context.
But for your convenance here it is again:

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

My sheep hear My voice (is hear in the past, present or future?)
I know them (past, present or future?)
They follow me (past, present or future?)
I give them eternal life (past, present or future?)
They shall NEVER perish (past, present or future?)

 

[JLB]

My sheep hear My voice (is hear in the past, present or future?)
I know them (past, present or future?)
They follow me (past, present or future?)
I give them eternal life (past, present or future?)
They shall NEVER perish (past, present or future?)

They shall never perish is future.

Since you can die, this is a future reference.

When you attain to the resurrection of life, then you will be immortal and can never die.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

"That age" is the age to come; Future.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-28


Those who are counted worthy to attain the resurrection of life, do so because:

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do you believe this statement to be true or false?

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

1. True
2. False

JLB