"Believe" in the present tense

[LovethroughDove]

Please follow forum rules and provide Scripture that supports this claim.

This is in response to when I said a born again Spirit will always believe.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I'm not one to really explain scripture to someone. That is why you won't see long drawn-out posts from me. (Not saying I have to explain it to you). I think scripture really will speak for itself.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is in response to when I said a born again Spirit will always believe.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

But this verse doesn't say anyone will "always believe". Consider Acts 15:1 and 5 -
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

So, "some of the believers" belonged to the "party of the Pharisees" and were teaching FALSE DOCTRINE.

Do those believers who teach false doctrine "belong" in your church? Generally, the ones who teach false doctrine will not stay in a church that doesn't accept their teaching.

So that's what 1 John 2:19 is about.

 

[LovethroughDove]

OK, so what makes one "born again"?

John 14:19-20 "Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

Jesus is Lord and raised from the dead. - - - - -You become One with God and born of the Holy Spirit

 

[Edward]

Haven't been born again

When the Lord deems that their belief is real and sincere, he will give total revelation and you will be born again.

That does make sense. It also flies in the face of what most people believe. When one first accepts the Lord and declares it, most say, start thanking the Lord, now you're saved and walking with the Lord...(which may in fact be true), but at that point in ones life, how much can one really believe? They're infantile in the Lord and don't know very much at all. They have no foundation at this point. How could they?

This can be taken negatively I think. The way you said this makes me think that a person has to believe for a while, to prove to God their belief is real, before He accepts them.

It does sound...kind of scary, doesn't it? I do know one thing, that the Lord responds to passion. How many people get passionate about the Lord having received Him though? Some will immediately get passionate about the Lord, crack open the Word, and push for more, acting upon the very faith that was expressed in his sinners prayer. Others will not. They'll praise the Lord, then go home and sit down. If they're lucky, they'll attend church once or twice a month and not even really study the Word, citing some such reasoning like, it's too hard to understand or something. I'll just go to church and get my spiritual fix from the pastor. That is not acting upon the faith that was expressed. The Lord knows this.

Maybe it's like, joining a ball team. Boom, you're on the team. Will you ever make MVP? well, You wont by never going to practice. You wont rise up within the team by listening to other teammates talk about the coach. You have to show up and turn your heart towards the team and participate. In this way, the coach can perceive your value as a team member. Suddenly you'll be put in the starting lineup. In a position to become a value to the team. If you never go to practice or go to bat...are you really on the team?

One Pastors sermon once was that you don't just get saved and sit down, that you get saved and stand up. That we have to build a resume of trust with the Lord. This is illustrated wonderfully in Matthew 4. Jesus had just gotten baptized, and what was the first thing that happened to Him after that? He was led into the desert to be tempted by the devil. He was tested. Things did not get better for Him. He knew that He was in a bad way, hungry, alone and being offered to have His bad situation relieved if He would only turn His back on God and worship him. What did Jesus do? Well, He responded with the Word of God. (young Christians, pay attention here). He stood upon the Word of God and showed Himself to be willing to endure the suffering...and then what happened?...
Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.../

He showed the Father that He could be trusted, and that He could hold onto His faith in the Father. It was then that the devil left Him and the Angels came and ministered to Him. So it seems clear to me that this is a back and forth. The man initiates the desire to know the Lord and receive salvation, The Lord then tests the man, and if the man has something within him to draw upon (the Word), then the test can be passed and a relationship of trust established. (perhaps it is at this point that the Lord accepts him and writes his name in the book of Life?), then (and only then) would the Angels be released to minister to the soul.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.../

This does not say, if my people will say the sinners prayer and then go home to sit on their blessed assurance (lol) that all will turn kum bay ya for them. If they...will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin...this can only be done through the power of the Word. If you don't go home and do these things after (saying the prayer)...then what is there to believe on? Just the proclamation of forgive me Lord, I believe so am saved, but one doesn't walk in what it says to do...then will their sins be forgiven? Perhaps not! No resume of trust has been established...so the people must...

Isaiah 60:1 Acts 17:11 1 Thessalonians 5:17

or so it seems to me...

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"OK, so what makes one "born again"?"

John 14:19-20 "Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

Jesus is Lord and raised from the dead. - - - - -You become One with God and born of the Holy Spirit

Not seeing "when". Is it when we are resurrected? Seems so, from your answer.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Let me be as clear as Scripture is clear about who the Holy Spirit dwells in.

Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed (aorist tense), you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

All who have ever believed in a point of time are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

That is plain language."

This is kind of an odd comment from what I posted above. What Scripture did I deny in my statement?

What I showed was the plain language of Scripture about who the Holy Spirit indwells. Who would deny what Eph 1:13 says?

Heb 12:7
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 12:25
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

Psa 24:3-6
Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false
and does not swear deceitfully.
He will receive blessing from the LORD
and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek the face of the God of Jacob

Psa 73:24-28
You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will receive me to glory.
Whom have I in heaven but you?
And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you.
My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever
For behold, those who are far from you shall perish;
you put an end to everyone who is unfaithful to you.
But for me it is good to be near God;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
that I may tell of all your works.

Jas 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

The Spirit of God dwells in those who continue in truth. When you forsake the truth, you forsake the Spirit; when you forsake the Spirit, you forsake God. You would do well to read Jeremiah 5.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I asked this:
"OK, so what makes one "born again"?"

Not seeing "when". Is it when we are resurrected? Seems so, from your answer.

The day you believe "Jesus is Lord" and "He has been raised from the dead". When you know he lives, you live.

 

[Nathan]

That does make sense. It also flies in the face of what most people believe. When one first accepts the Lord and declares it, most say, start thanking the Lord, now you're saved and walking with the Lord...(which may in fact be true), but at that point in ones life, how much can one really believe? They're infantile in the Lord and don't know very much at all. They have no foundation at this point. How could they?



It does sound...kind of scary, doesn't it? I do know one thing, that the Lord responds to passion. How many people get passionate about the Lord having received Him though? Some will immediately get passionate about the Lord, crack open the Word, and push for more, acting upon the very faith that was expressed in his sinners prayer. Others will not. They'll praise the Lord, then go home and sit down. If they're lucky, they'll attend church once or twice a month and not even really study the Word, citing some such reasoning like, it's too hard to understand or something. I'll just go to church and get my spiritual fix from the pastor. That is not acting upon the faith that was expressed. The Lord knows this.

Maybe it's like, joining a ball team. Boom, you're on the team. Will you ever make MVP? well, You wont by never going to practice. You wont rise up within the team by listening to other teammates talk about the coach. You have to show up and turn your heart towards the team and participate. In this way, the coach can perceive your value as a team member. Suddenly you'll be put in the starting lineup. In a position to become a value to the team. If you never go to practice or go to bat...are you really on the team?

One Pastors sermon once was that you don't just get saved and sit down, that you get saved and stand up. That we have to build a resume of trust with the Lord. This is illustrated wonderfully in Matthew 4. Jesus had just gotten baptized, and what was the first thing that happened to Him after that? He was led into the desert to be tempted by the devil. He was tested. Things did not get better for Him. He knew that He was in a bad way, hungry, alone and being offered to have His bad situation relieved if He would only turn His back on God and worship him. What did Jesus do? Well, He responded with the Word of God. (young Christians, pay attention here). He stood upon the Word of God and showed Himself to be willing to endure the suffering...and then what happened?...
Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.../

He showed the Father that He could be trusted, and that He could hold onto His faith in the Father. It was then that the devil left Him and the Angels came and ministered to Him. So it seems clear to me that this is a back and forth. The man initiates the desire to know the Lord and receive salvation, The Lord then tests the man, and if the man has something within him to draw upon (the Word), then the test can be passed and a relationship of trust established. (perhaps it is at this point that the Lord accepts him and writes his name in the book of Life?), then (and only then) would the Angels be released to minister to the soul.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.../

This does not say, if my people will say the sinners prayer and then go home to sit on their blessed assurance (lol) that all will turn kum bay ya for them. If they...will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin...this can only be done through the power of the Word. If you don't go home and do these things after (saying the prayer)...then what is there to believe on? Just the proclamation of forgive me Lord, I believe so am saved, but one doesn't walk in what it says to do...then will their sins be forgiven? Perhaps not! No resume of trust has been established...so the people must...

Isaiah 60:1 Acts 17:11 1 Thessalonians 5:17

or so it seems to me...

Your right, its not about saying a prayer or showing up for something. It is a matter of the heart. However, there is no waiting period with God. He does not wait to see if you prove yourself before giving you the Spirit. Simple truth is we can do nothing in our own power to overcome sin until the Spirit is in us.

To think that we have to show ourselves 'worthy' somehow(I'm not saying you believe this) amounts to being good enough for God to save us. This is a works based salvation.

Forgiveness of sins is simply about reconciliation - not about getting passage into heaven. Yes, reconciliation is what gives us passage into heaven, but that is a result of forgiveness not the reason for it.

People should not think they have to do something to be accepted by God. But you also should not think that God does not want you to do anything after He comes to dwell in you through the Spirit.

We are to "abide" - and yes, no matter who says anything about that - it is a continual abiding, not a one shot belief.

 

[Edward]

Your right, its not about saying a prayer or showing up for something. It is a matter of the heart. However, there is no waiting period with God. He does not wait to see if you prove yourself before giving you the Spirit. Simple truth is we can do nothing in our own power to overcome sin until the Spirit is in us.

To think that we have to show ourselves 'worthy' somehow(I'm not saying you believe this) amounts to being good enough for God to save us. This is a works based salvation.

Forgiveness of sins is simply about reconciliation - not about getting passage into heaven. Yes, reconciliation is what gives us passage into heaven, but that is a result of forgiveness not the reason for it.

People should not think they have to do something to be accepted by God. But you also should not think that God does not want you to do anything after He comes to dwell in you through the Spirit.

We are to "abide" - and yes, no matter who says anything about that - it is a continual abiding, not a one shot belief.

I agree with you Brother. It can't be a works salvation, and yet, He expects us to have and do works. This is not to get salvation, but affirms that we have been saved. If believers really believe what they've read, then would they not walk in it? If we do not have any works, just said the prayer...are those people still saved (or were they at all)?

I don't think that anyone can really answer that question. After all, God is GOD, and He will do what He will with His own. Perhaps this is where the work out your salvation with fear and trembling comes in? There's going to be a whole lot of people who will not be allowed into heaven, and Jesus will say, I never knew you...Who will these people be?

 

[Nathan]

I agree with you Brother. It can't be a works salvation, and yet, He expects us to have and do works. This is not to get salvation, but affirms that we have been saved. If believers really believe what they've read, then would they not walk in it? If we do not have any works, just said the prayer...are those people still saved (or were they at all)?

I don't think that anyone can really answer that question. After all, God is GOD, and He will do what He will with His own. Perhaps this is where the work out your salvation with fear and trembling comes in? There's going to be a whole lot of people who will not be allowed into heaven, and Jesus will say, I never knew you...Who will these people be?

I agree with you also, we cannot judge the outcome of a man's heart.

I would also say that what God expects is for us to follow His leading. Many times people get discouraged because they think they have to do good things, and even try to, but find themselves failing.

God wants us to be vessels for good use. Branches that 'bear' good fruit. Soldiers who are ready for battle.

Often we find ourselves way out ahead of the leading of the Spirit. Here is the thing; If you have a good apple tree, that has a good root system, and has all the nutrients it needs - is there any doubt that fruit will grow on it?

Why would we believe that God cannot grow fruit in us? We don't make the fruit grow - He does. We simply abide on the tree.

I love it when I see fruit growing. It is so beautiful. Its such a mighty work He does, and therefore He receives all the glory.

 

[FreeGrace]

Heb 12:7
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 12:25
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

Psa 24:3-6
Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false
and does not swear deceitfully.
He will receive blessing from the LORD
and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek the face of the God of Jacob

Psa 73:24-28
You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will receive me to glory.
Whom have I in heaven but you?
And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you.
My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever
For behold, those who are far from you shall perish;
you put an end to everyone who is unfaithful to you.
But for me it is good to be near God;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
that I may tell of all your works.

Jas 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Great verses!!

The Spirit of God dwells in those who continue in truth. When you forsake the truth, you forsake the Spirit; when you forsake the Spirit, you forsake God. You would do well to read Jeremiah 5.

None of these verses contradict Eph 1:13,14. I reject such a suggestion

 

[FreeGrace]

The day you believe "Jesus is Lord" and "He has been raised from the dead". When you know he lives, you live.

Yes, one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes, according to Jesus here:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Nathan]

Great verses!!


None of these verses contradict Eph 1:13,14. I reject such a suggestion

I see that you reject it. I pray one day you will accept it. I just hope those who read these posts/threads will not stumble at the truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"OK, prove with scholarly sources that "will die" refers to eternal death, not physical death. Just look at 1 Cor 11:30 to find the scope of God's discipline toward believers: weak, sickly, and sleep. Paul wasn't speaking of nighty night with "sleep". He used a euphemism for physical death. Just as Jesus did in John 11 in reference to Lazarus, who died physically and Jesus brought back from death."

I see that you reject it.

I was clear about what i rejected. But it seems you've rejected the point of 1 Cor 11:30. Why?

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"OK, prove with scholarly sources that "will die" refers to eternal death, not physical death. Just look at 1 Cor 11:30 to find the scope of God's discipline toward believers: weak, sickly, and sleep. Paul wasn't speaking of nighty night with "sleep". He used a euphemism for physical death. Just as Jesus did in John 11 in reference to Lazarus, who died physically and Jesus brought back from death."

I was clear about what i rejected. But it seems you've rejected the point of 1 Cor 11:30. Why?

Your confusing this thread with the other. It's easy to do, I understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

OR
It could be that Koine Greek just isn't concerned about tense as us Romanised Western English speaking people are.

AMEN.

 

[Jim Parker]

I see it only as a warning. Cause he puts the word "if" they fall away.

OF course it's a warning.
Nut it would be rather silly to write such a dire warning if the possibility of falling away did not even exist.

 

[Jim Parker]

I said this:
"The TENSE determines the time aspect of the verb, not the verse."

Well, I sic'ed Daniel Wallace on Carson, and Wallace won.

Show me the video.

 

[Jim Parker]

We also have the answer to WHY Judas was chosen. John 6:70,71 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Yes.
And that's another topic.

 

[LovethroughDove]

OF course it's a warning.
Nut it would be rather silly to write such a dire warning if the possibility of falling away did not even exist.

Dude, he did though. If you haven't noticed there are many paradoxes to it all. Why warn of something that isn't possible? Let me put it this way. God warns me of something and I'm born again, I listen. I'm not gonna test it out. We listen to what he has said through his word. Every word written is for our benefit.