Pretty much the same subject.Your confusing this thread with the other.It's easy to do, I understand.
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"Believe" in the present tense
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Nathan
Member
I said this:
"Pretty much the same subject."
"Pretty much the same subject."
We're not talking about the same subject? How does that work?Except we were not talking about it here.
Jim Parker
Member
it doesn't
Seabass
Member
Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical. The facts still remain, if one does not conditionally maintain a present tense "hearing" and "following" of Christ per John 10:27 then he will not be of the sheep in John 2:28 that shall not perish.
The idea a person can believe for a moment, then quit believing and yet still be saves is totally antagonistic to the bible's teachings:
Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." A less than present tense belief leaves one lost, separated from God. Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (The verb 'continue is in the present tense - one must continue continuing)
Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Faith gives access to grace. If one can have faith for a moment then quit yet still be saved apart from faith, then why not argue one can be saved apart from grace also?
Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
The jailer did not believe for a moment and then quit nor did he have belief only.
--the verb phrase "shalt be saved" in Acts 16:31 is future tense so he would not have salvation at that moment by just a momentary belief.
---There are constative aorist tense verbs...." views the action as a whole, taking no interest in the internal workings of the action. It describes the action as bare fact" http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html....."describes an action in its entirety"
John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
The verb "building" is a constative aorist. They did not build for a moment and quit but continued to build until action was complete.
---Acts 16:34 "And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."
The verb "believing" is now in the perfect tense which describes an action in the past that has a continuing effect. The jailer continued to believe unto the next day verse 35.
---also the participle "believing" includes all the jailer had just done, his repentance (washing stripes) and being baptized. So he was not saved 'belief only" for a moment. The idea one can be saved instantly, in a moment by believing only contradicts all the verses that require repentance, confession and baptism for salvation.
Lastly, those of a Calvinistic persuasion erroneously think faith is a gift in the sense that one can only have faith if God gives it to him. If this were true, then why would God give one faith for a moment, then take it back? Why is not one gifted with faith for life? What reason would there be for the jailer to be given belief for a moment by God then have it taken away?
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Seabass
Member
Hi,
I had this debate with Freegrace2 on another forum a few months back. (I am assuming "Freegrace" here is "Freegrace2" on the other forum)
He started a thread arguing for Eternal Security using John 10:28.
I responded by showing salvation has two sides:
1) required faithfulness on part of the Christian Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 4:1-2
2) God's faithfulness to the group called Christian.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"
These two verses make up one thought and cannot be separated. Verse 27 shows #1, the required faithfulness on part of the Christian to continue to hear and follow Christ. Verse 28 shows #2, God's faithfulness to the group Christian.
So in verse 28, the "they" that shall never perish is made up of those that maintain a faithful PRESENT TENSE, CONTINUOUS hearing and following of Christ. If the Christian becomes unfaithful in his hearing and following Christ per verse 27, then he will not be of the "they" in verse 28
This is why FreeGrace attacks the present tense (and will attack the subjunctive mood also).
I do not know how popular the idea is among people that one can lose faith yet still be saved, but Charles Stanley is a promoter of it.
I have told him this same thing over and over, in which he ignores the whole verse and context, and only quotes a part of the verse.
JLB
Amen!
Jim Parker
Member
That's right.
Eternal security IS a biblical teaching. In fact, Jesus was very clear about it. He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.
How is that NOT eternal security? Please explain.
What isn't biblical is the claim from those who think salvation can be lost that the present tense of 'believe' means one is only saved as long as they "presently believe", which isn't what the present tense means at all.
These are no facts. What Jesus said in v.28 contains NO CONDITIONS for never perishing.
One may argue who the "them" and "they" are in v.28, but one thing is SURE: they will never perish because Jesus gave them eternal life.
Interesting to note that NONE of these verses just quoted says anything about losing salvation or eternal life. Or having to continuously believe in order to stay saved.
And Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in John 10:28. By the plain FACT that He gives them eternal life, they will never perish. That's eternal security!!
I agree with you regarding the Calvinistic persuasion. I'm not one of them any more than I'm of the Arminian persuasion. I'm of the biblical persuasion.
But the real problem is that the teaching that one can lose salvation goes directly against what Jesus said in John 10:28.
What a hoot!! I've never attacked the present tense. I HAVE shown the Arminian abuse of the present tense, though.
Please explain WHY Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life for never perishing.
Just the FACT that those He gives eternal life will never perish.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Black.and.white.
He gives, they will never perish.
It couldn't be any more clear than that.
Salvation has always been based on what Jesus did for us. All we can do is receive it.
Nonsense. of course the believer is commanded to remain faithful. But not for salvation. For reward and blessings.
It would be unfaithful, of course. But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28
The challenge is to either believe what He said or not.
Seabass said: ↑
Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.
Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.
No, that's wrong.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.
We do not ignore those verses. We ignore the false interpretations of those verses.
Being unfaithful or going apostate after we are saved is a BIG deal. We lose our chance to Glorify Him in time and lose tremendous, tremendous rewards and blessings. Not to mention the heavy hand of discipline From our Father IF we don't continue in His faith.
To Grow in His grace knowledge requires faithfulness(STUDY<STUDY and STUDY His Mind.) If we don't, there are HUGE consequences.
But Salvation is simply believing and He seals us with His Spirit...........forever. Acts 16:31.
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Jim Parker
Member
I am aware of your view.
I do not believe it is supported by scripture.
I'm not going to argue with you
Seabass
Member
1) There is a "false interpretation" given to John 10:28 when verse 27 gets ignored as it is happening in this thread.
2) where does the bible teach if one loses, casts aside his faith he will still be saved but just lose rewards?
3) do you agree with FreeGrace a Christian can quit believing, cast aside his faith turn his back on Christ and still be saved?