"Believe" in the present tense

[Seabass]

Seabass said: ↑
Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.

No, that's wrong.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

You continue to ignore verse 27 which goes with verse 28. Verse 27 tells us who the "they" are of verse 28 that shall not perish. The "they" that shall not perish are the ones who hear and follow Christ. You are trying to create a new verse by saying the "they" who never perish also includes those that do not hear and follow Christ. Such a verse only exists in men's minds, not God's word.

John 3:16 those who believeth......should not perish/be saved
John 5:24 those that heareth & beleveth....hath everlasting life
John 6:40 those that seeth & believeth....may have everlasting life

Yet where are the verse(s) that says those that do NOT see, do NOT heareth, do NOT believeth hath everlasting life/should be saved?

Yes, you are meddling with Greek grammar for the sole reason it does not jibe with your interpretation of various verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Seabass said: ↑
Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.
No, that's wrong.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28."

I am aware of your view.
I do not believe it is supported by scripture.

Then what did Jesus mean in John 10:28 when He said those He gives eternal life will never perish??

I'm not going to argue with you

It's gonna be real hard to argue against Jesus in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

1) There is a "false interpretation" given to John 10:28 when verse 27 gets ignored as it is happening in this thread.

Not so. v.27 identifies WHO the "them" and "they" are in v.28, that's all. There's NO REQUIREMENT from v.27 into v.28. The claim that there is is simply FALSE.

What Jesus said in v.28 is clear enough: those He gives eternal life will never perish.

That's as clear a statement about eternal security as there is.

2) where does the bible teach if one loses, casts aside his faith he will still be saved but just lose rewards?

Jesus was clear about eternal security in John 10:28. He gives eternal life; the recipients will never perish. Period.

3) do you agree with FreeGrace a Christian can quit believing, cast aside his faith turn his back on Christ and still be saved?

The better question is this: do you agree with Jesus about recipients of eternal life NEVER PERISHING?

It seems there is NOT agreement about what He said.

 

[Seabass]

Not so. v.27 identifies WHO the "them" and "they" are in v.28, that's all. There's NO REQUIREMENT from v.27 into v.28. The claim that there is is simply FALSE.

What Jesus said in v.28 is clear enough: those He gives eternal life will never perish.

That's as clear a statement about eternal security as there is.


Jesus was clear about eternal security in John 10:28. He gives eternal life; the recipients will never perish. Period.


The better question is this: do you agree with Jesus about recipients of eternal life NEVER PERISHING?

It seems there is NOT agreement about what He said.

Verse 27, the words of Christ identifies who the "they" are of verse 28 and NOT YOU and your theological bias. Verse 27 and 28 is ONE thought of Christ's and your theological bias cannot have it that way so you insert YOUR thoughts in place of verse 27.

Yes, I agree 100% with Christ when He says those that hear and follow Him shall not perish.

John 3:16 those who believeth......should not perish/be saved
John 5:24 those that heareth & beleveth....hath everlasting life
John 6:40 those that seeth & believeth....may have everlasting life

Where are the verse(s) that says those that do NOT see, do NOT heareth, do NOT believeth hath everlasting life/should be saved?

 

[FreeGrace]

You continue to ignore verse 27 which goes with verse 28.

Please stop this folly. No one has ignored v.27, which DEFINES who the "them" and "they" are in v.28. That's ALL.

What seems to be TOTALLY IGNORED is what Jesus actually said in v.28; recipients (that's those who are given eternal life by Jesus) of eternal life will NEVER PERISH. Clear. Straightforward. Plain. Eternal security.

Between receiving eternal life and NEVER PERISHING, there are NO CONDITIONS, contrary to popular opinion on this forum.

Verse 27 tells us who the "they" are of verse 28 that shall not perish.

Yep. That's what I've said. Not ignored.

The "they" that shall not perish are the ones who hear and follow Christ. You are trying to create a new verse by saying the "they" who never perish also includes those that do not hear and follow Christ.

I've NEVER made such a nonsense claim.

The point of v.28 is that saved people, who ARE recipients of eternal life, will never perish.

Please QUIT missing this point.

Yes, you are meddling with Greek grammar for the sole reason it does not jibe with your interpretation of various verses.

Nope. Prove your claim, or withdraw it, please.

 

[FreeGrace]

Verse 27, the words of Christ identifies who the "they" are of verse 28 and NOT YOU and your theological bias.

I've been given eternal life BECAUSE I have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. And you elevate yourself to "judge" as to who John 10:28 refers to, excluding me?? This is a direct violation of forum rules. Knock it off.

Verse 27 and 28 is ONE thought of Christ's and your theological bias cannot have it that way so you insert YOUR thoughts in place of verse 27.

What you've NOT done is show how v.28 doesn't indicate eternal security.

Yes, I agree 100% with Christ when He says those that hear and follow Him shall not perish.

That's not exactly what He said. He said, and I quote: "I GIVE them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH."

Got it? He gives eternal life, and the recipients shall never perish. That IS eternal security.

 

[Seabass]

Nonsense. of course the believer is commanded to remain faithful. But not for salvation. For reward and blessings.


It would be unfaithful, of course. But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28

The challenge is to either believe what He said or not.

You try and create more new verses.

Where is the verse that says those that are unfaithful shall be saved?


Luke 12:42 Jesus asked "Who then is the faithful and wise steward"? The faithful v43.
Luke 12:45-46 those that become unfaithful to the Lord will be lost.

So where is the verse that says eternal life will be given to those that become unfaithful to the Lord, that quit seeing, hearing and believing the Lord?

 

[Seabass]

Nonsense. of course the believer is commanded to remain faithful. But not for salvation. For reward and blessings.


It would be unfaithful, of course. But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28

The challenge is to either believe what He said or not.

1) Jesus NEVER said He would give eternal life to the unfaithful. If Christ will save the unfaithful then show me the verse that says He will

2) The "they" in John 10:28 ARE FAITHFUL in their hearing and following Christ.

Your misinterpretation of John 10:28 creates two total unbiblical ideas and Gr8grace3 accuses others of "false interpretations".

 

[Seabass]

What a hoot!! I've never attacked the present tense. I HAVE shown the Arminian abuse of the present tense, though.

You are denying and attacking the present tense in John 10:27 that requires an ongoing faithful hearing and following of Christ in order to be of the "they" in v28 that shall not perish. Since this does not jibe with your personal ideas you are attacking the present tense.

Please explain WHY Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life for never perishing.

John 3:16
John 5:24
John 6:40
are just 3 of many verses. These three requires the conditions of seeing, hearing and believing to have eternal life/not perish.

Just the FACT that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Black.and.white.

He gives, they will never perish.

It couldn't be any more clear than that.

Salvation has always been based on what Jesus did for us. All we can do is receive it.

The ones Christ gave eternal life to are the ones that CONDITIONALLY seeth, heareth and believeth. What you cannot produce is a single verse that says Christ's gives eternal life to those that do NOT see, do NOT hear do NOT believe Him.

 

[Seabass]

Eternal security IS a biblical teaching. In fact, Jesus was very clear about it. He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

How is that NOT eternal security? Please explain.

What isn't biblical is the claim from those who think salvation can be lost that the present tense of 'believe' means one is only saved as long as they "presently believe", which isn't what the present tense means at all.

The bible teaches the Christian can fall away and be lost, giving examples of those that did fall away and gives warnings and admonishments about fall away and being lost. Those that embrace OSAS will not deal with the verses that require faithfulness on part of the Christian so that he will not fall away becoming lost but just attack those verses and the grammar within them.

These are no facts. What Jesus said in v.28 contains NO CONDITIONS for never perishing.

One may argue who the "them" and "they" are in v.28, but one thing is SURE: they will never perish because Jesus gave them eternal life.


Interesting to note that NONE of these verses just quoted says anything about losing salvation or eternal life. Or having to continuously believe in order to stay saved.

And Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in John 10:28. By the plain FACT that He gives them eternal life, they will never perish. That's eternal security!!


I agree with you regarding the Calvinistic persuasion. I'm not one of them any more than I'm of the Arminian persuasion. I'm of the biblical persuasion.

But the real problem is that the teaching that one can lose salvation goes directly against what Jesus said in John 10:28.

This is proving you are dismissing verse 27.

Who make up the "they" in verse 28 that shall never perish?
How does one become one of the "they" in verse 28?
Are certain people just arbitrarily unconditionally chosen to be of the "they" in verse 28 for some unknown reason or no reason at all?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Nonsense. of course the believer is commanded to remain faithful. But not for salvation. For reward and blessings.

It would be unfaithful, of course. But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28

The challenge is to either believe what He said or not."

You try and create more new verses.

Why should I? There is no need to. Jesus said it ALL. Those He gives eternal life will never perish, in Jn 10:28.

Interesting that my comments weren't addressed.

Where is the verse that says those that are unfaithful shall be saved?

Imbedded in John 10:28. Those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish.

If your wish were true, then Jesus would have said this instead:
"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they remain faithful, they shall never perish".

This is how one legitimizes their view, with Scripture that actually SAYS what they claim.

 

[Seabass]

I said this:
"Nonsense. of course the believer is commanded to remain faithful. But not for salvation. For reward and blessings.

It would be unfaithful, of course. But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28

The challenge is to either believe what He said or not."

Why should I? There is no need to. Jesus said it ALL. Those He gives eternal life will never perish, in Jn 10:28.

Interesting that my comments weren't addressed.


Imbedded in John 10:28. Those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish.

If your wish were true, then Jesus would have said this instead:
"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they remain faithful, they shall never perish".

This is how one legitimizes their view, with Scripture that actually SAYS what they claim.

John10:28 does not say the unfaithful will be saved. This proves you are reading things into the verse and contradicting other passages showing the unfaithful steward will be lost.

We know from v27 the "they" are the ones who hear and follow. and you still have not produce a verse that says those that will NOT see will NOT hear and will NOT believe shall be saved/

 

[FreeGrace]

1) Jesus NEVER said He would give eternal life to the unfaithful.

What DID He actually say?

"I give them (believers, saved people) eternal life, and they shall never perish. Jn 10:28

When is eternal life given to believers? WHEN they believe:
Jn 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

If Christ will save the unfaithful then show me the verse that says He will

It's been shown repeatedly and rejected just as much:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

No conditions between giving eternal life and never perishing.

Not even with an electron microscope.

2) The "they" in John 10:28 ARE FAITHFUL in their hearing and following Christ.

Nope. Jesus informs us of WHEN one HAS eternal life; WHEN they believe. So v.28 is about those who believe. That's WHEN they HAVE eternal life.

Is there any verse that indicates that eternal life is given some time AFTER initial faith? Like a probationary period, or something like that?

That's what you'd need to support your views from Scripture.

Your misinterpretation of John 10:28 creates two total unbiblical ideas and Gr8grace3 accuses others of "false interpretations".

Please explain exactly how I've misinterpreted anything from v.28. Your claim is only an opinion without any substance to back it up.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish.

How is that not eternal security?

 

[FreeGrace]

You are denying and attacking the present tense in John 10:27 that requires an ongoing faithful hearing and following of Christ in order to be of the "they" in v28 that shall not perish.

One would have to ignore John 5:24 to hold to this poor understanding. Jesus indicated that whoever believes HAS eternal life. That would mean they HAVE it when they FIRST believed.

So, v.28 tells us the RESULT of receiving eternal life; they will never perish. Eternal security.

Since this does not jibe with your personal ideas you are attacking the present tense.

Please explain what the present tense means, and THEN explain how I've "attacked" the poor lil thing.

The ones Christ gave eternal life to are the ones that CONDITIONALLY seeth, heareth and believeth.

Where would one find the notion of "conditions" in v.28?

It's not there.

 

[FreeGrace]

The bible teaches the Christian can fall away and be lost

False. The Bible does teach that a believer can cease to believe (fall away from the faith), but it DOES NOT teach that a saved person can become lost.

In fact, Jesus doesn't permit such an idea from John 10:28. For those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Eternal security.

Who make up the "they" in verse 28 that shall never perish?

Believers, saved people. Jesus said whoever believes has eternal life in Jn 5:24, so it should be obvious that those He gives eternal life in Jn 10:28 are the same people; believers. And once given eternal life, they shall never perish.

So said Jesus.

How does one become one of the "they" in verse 28?

By believing in Him. Jn 3:16, 5:24.

 

[FreeGrace]

John10:28 does not say the unfaithful will be saved.

Right. It DOES say that everyone who receives eternal life shall never perish.

Think about that for a sec. Unless it can be proven from Scripture that eternal life isn't given until some time AFTER believing, it should be clear that from the MOMENT one first believes in Christ, Jesus SAYS they shall never perish.

This proves you are reading things into the verse and contradicting other passages showing the unfaithful steward will be lost.

So you're using a parable to form a doctrine?? And the parable didn't say he would be lost. Check the actual Greek.

We know from v27 the "they" are the ones who hear and follow. and you still have not produce a verse that says those that will NOT see will NOT hear and will NOT believe shall be saved/

This is really irrelevant.

v.28 teaches that those who are given eternal life will never perish.

So, please explain WHEN one does receive eternal life, and with sources from the Bible.

That will clear all this up.

 

[Seabass]

I've been given eternal life BECAUSE I have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. And you elevate yourself to "judge" as to who John 10:28 refers to, excluding me?? This is a direct violation of forum rules. Knock it off.

Here, you put a CONDITION on having eternal life, the condition of belief.......thereby refuting your own argument.

I have said all along the "they" of John 10:28 INCLUDES believers and EXCLUDES unbelievers which does not break any forums rules that I see. I do not put any person in either group, people put themselves in one group or the other.

What you've NOT done is show how v.28 doesn't indicate eternal security.

It is up to you to prove your own affirmations, not for me to prove a negative. You have not proven v28 teaches UNCONDITIONAL security, that one can be saved if he quits meeting the condition of belief.

It makes sense that since believing is a condition to be initially saved that maintaining that condition of belief is necessary to remain saved.

It makes no sense to require belief to be initially saved then cast that belief away to remain saved.
Stewards are not required to initially be faithful for a moment then they can become unfaithful. Such a steward is worthless and untrustworthy and unfit for eternal life.

That's not exactly what He said. He said, and I quote: "I GIVE them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH."

Got it? He gives eternal life, and the recipients shall never perish. That IS eternal security.

No one is arguing against the fact that Christ gives them eternal life and they shall never perish.

The issue is WHO are the ones Christ gives eternal life and shall not perish.

The context, which includes verse 27 tells us the WHO are the ones that hear and follow and not certain people arbitrarily chosen unconditionally. You have not yet proven that the "they" of v28 includes unbelievers that do not hear and follow Christ.

 

[Seabass]

Right. It DOES say that everyone who receives eternal life shall never perish.

Think about that for a sec. Unless it can be proven from Scripture that eternal life isn't given until some time AFTER believing, it should be clear that from the MOMENT one first believes in Christ, Jesus SAYS they shall never perish.


So you're using a parable to form a doctrine?? And the parable didn't say he would be lost. Check the actual Greek.
Parable


This is really irrelevant.

v.28 teaches that those who are given eternal life will never perish.

So, please explain WHEN one does receive eternal life, and with sources from the Bible.

That will clear all this up.

The purpose and use of parables was to teach spiritual truths and in the case of the parable I cited the spiritual truth is unfaithful stewards will be lost.

In the context, Jesus speaks of those that hear and follow. The plural pronoun "them" of v28 would refer back to the nearest antecendant being "them" and "they" that hear and follow per verse 27. The context does NOT speak of unbelievers so the pronoun 'they' of v28 cannot refer back to what is NOT even said, what's NOT in verse 27.

Who/what is the antecedent of the pronouns "they" an "them" in verse 28?

[Verse 26 points out those that do not believe are NOT of Christ's sheep so unbelievers cannot be of the "they" and "them" of verse 27. Christ is making a CONTRAST between unbelievers of vs 26 NOT of His sheep to believers in v27 that are of His sheep.]

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What you've NOT done is show how v.28 doesn't indicate eternal security."

Here, you put a CONDITION on having eternal life, the condition of belief.......thereby refuting your own argument.

Seems fairly clear that my posts aren't even being read.

That wasn't my point. Of course the condition for being given eternal life is to believe. That was settled way back in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47.

The point of John 10:28 is that there are NO CONDITIONS for never perishing after receiving eternal life.

Why in the world is this point being missed, ignored, or rejected? It's EXACTLY what Jesus said.

I have said all along the "they" of John 10:28 INCLUDES believers and EXCLUDES unbelievers which does not break any forums rules that I see. I do not put any person in either group, people put themselves in one group or the other.

The only issue in v.28 is that those GIVEN eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

The claim that salvation can be lost is refuted by what Jesus said. The promise of NEVER PERISHING is applied WHEN one is given eternal life.

Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, per John 5:24. So eternal security applies the MOMENT on believes. Period.

You have not proven v28 teaches UNCONDITIONAL security, that one can be saved if he quits meeting the condition of belief.

Good grief! What are the conditions between being given eternal life and never perishing in v.28? None at all.

So your challenge has been refuted by what Jesus said.

No one is arguing against the fact that Christ gives them eternal life and they shall never perish.

Yeah, that IS what is being argued.

Jesus gives eternal life to believers, or John 5:24 makes no sense. So the condition for being given eternal life is to believe.

Then, by the FACT of being given eternal life, Jesus says the recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

The issue is WHO are the ones Christ gives eternal life and shall not perish.

See above for who.

The context, which includes verse 27 tells us the WHO are the ones that hear and follow and not certain people arbitrarily chosen unconditionally. You have not yet proven that the "they" of v28 includes unbelievers that do not hear and follow Christ.

So, we can just ignore John 5:24 as to who the recipients are?

No, we can't.

 

[FreeGrace]

The purpose and use of parables was to teach spiritual truths and in the case of the parable I cited the spiritual truth is unfaithful stewards will be lost.

In the context, Jesus speaks of those that hear and follow. The plural pronoun "them" of v28 would refer back to the nearest antecendant being "them" and "they" that hear and follow per verse 27. The context does NOT speak of unbelievers so the pronoun 'they' of v28 cannot refer back to what is NOT even said, what's NOT in verse 27.

Who/what is the antecedent of the pronouns "they" an "them" in verse 28?

[Verse 26 points out those that do not believe are NOT of Christ's sheep so unbelievers cannot be of the "they" and "them" of verse 27. Christ is making a CONTRAST between unbelievers of vs 26 NOT of His sheep to believers in v27 that are of His sheep.]

Let's just accept what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

In 5:24 He said "he who believes HAS eternal life".

In 10:28 He said "I give them (see 5:24 for who that is) eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those who accept these 2 verses AS STATED cannot accept the opinion of loss of salvation.