Believing Must Be The First Step, Right?

[Anchor Of Hope]

See, there is no explaining to you, all you want to do is argue, and I'm not interested. You are way to far off keeping the context of the Scripture in line. So, carry on my friend

That's right No Apostle Baptized anyone repeating Matthew 28:19, show me where they were

 

[Free]

There were 11 Nations, in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, put some thought into that, including those from Rome.

You're not reading close enough; you're only reading what you want, and in so doing, aren't refuting anything I've said (in case that's what you're trying to do).

Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
...
Act 2:9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” (ESV)

Context is important.

 

[Free]

Says, who?

Says those who who make it their life's work to get as close to the original manuscripts as possible.

I have enough Faith in the God I serve, to make sure everything in the Scripture that was translated has been given for to us from the God of Heaven and Earth, (Jesus Christ is His Name). Including Scriptures you say might have been added.

That's just fallaciously begging the question, as you're assuming those verses were originally written by Mark.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Jesus told the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. (Matt 28:29)
Isn't that enough for you ?
What is the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. ?
It is Jesus.

What is the Name of the Father? you said Jesus, that is true. Just to give you a simple explanation of how important a name is, try to cash a check writing Father on the signature line, try buying a house, using father as your name. try convincing the police your name is father, when he has pulled you over for a speeding citation. I said all of that, just so you may know the IMPORTANCE OF A NAME. My goodness I have never heard such foolishness.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

You're not reading close enough; you're only reading what you want, and in so doing, aren't refuting anything I've said (in case that's what you're trying to do).

Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
...
Act 2:9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” (ESV)

Context is important.

So, what's your point?

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Says those who who make it their life's work to get as close to the original manuscripts as possible.


That's just fallaciously begging the question, as you're assuming those verses were originally written by Mark.

the same people you are saying about Mark also says the same thing about Matthew 28:19.

 

[Fish153]

That man IS the flesh, and his destruction will save the rest of the church (spirit).

How can God's seed bring forth adulterous fruit ?
It can't ! (1 John 3:9)

You are misreading it.

Verse, please.
But don't waste your time, as it says nothing about what the man did; only that the church should forgive him.
But nothing is written about him even wanting to come back.

You have no evidence of that.
All we know for sure, is that his repentance from sin was a lie to God, and that he had never been reborn of God's seed.

Hopeful--- Please read the following:

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" (1 Cor. 3: 3-4)

Please note: Paul is addressing "the church" at Corinth. He is not telling them they are lost. These are real believers. But they are acting sinfully. They are filled with envy, strife and division. You say that is not possible--believers cannot be sinful. But note he calls them CARNAL, "even as unto babes in Christ". What you are missing (and I believe Anchor is missing also) is that a Christian has TWO natures: He is a NEW CREATION (and that nature CANNOT SIN). But he still has a nature of flesh. If you are a Christian and live by the flesh you are CARNAL. You are born again, but you are not allowing the Spirit to LEAD you. That is when God steps in to CHASTISE his children (just as we as father's chastise our children also) to get them to walk spiritually, and by faith. Do you recall that in 1 Corinthians these same "Christians" are taking each other to court? That is fleshly. But Paul says to them "Don't you know that WE will judge angels?" He includes them in that sentence: WE. He is definitely addressing Christians. The man who sinned so woefully in 1 Corinthians was a BELIEVER. In 2 Corinthians we see that the church actually excommunicated him (or threatened to) and he repented of his sin and returned to the church. This man was a real believer.

 

[Free]

So, what's your point?

That you aren't really thinking about who Peter was addressing--Jews--and the significance of baptizing in the name of Jesus (which doesn't go against Matt. 28:19 anyway), who was the Messiah and God in human flesh, and whom they murdered. It is not an insignificant detail regarding baptism in the name of Jesus.

the same people you are saying about Mark also says the same thing about Matthew 28:19.

Well, not really. Some of the people might be the same, but most of them are not. The issues are that the oldest manuscripts do not contain the longer ending of Mark (vv. 9-20), and every manuscript of Matthew that contains the ending (because many manuscripts are fragmentary and missing sections), has the Great Commission as it is commonly written. So, the evidence is in favour of the shorter ending of Mark and the inclusion of Matt. 28:19.

 

[Fish153]

This sounds good and might be true, but I have a problem with other passages that things like this.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

Then of course there are these verses from John.
1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The word overcome means: to subdue (literally or figuratively): - conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

Those who keep sinning to where God has to take them out, are not overcoming the world.

Whatever--

Remember though---the Christian has (3) enemies: The world, the flesh, and the devil. 1 John 5:4 says as Christians we have "overcome the world". But it doesn't say we have overcome "the flesh and the devil" though. That is why we need to daily take up our cross and deny the flesh. That is why we daily put on the armor of God and hold up shields to protect us from the "fiery darts of the devil". Read this section of scripture carefully:

"So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have FALLEN ASLEEP. But if we were more discerning with regard to OURSELVES, we would not come under such judgment. NEVERTHELESS, WHEN WE ARE JUDGED IN THIS WAY BY THE LORD, WE ARE BEING DISCIPLINED SO THAT WE WILL NOT BE FINALLY CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD" (1 Cor. 11:27-32)

Paul is clearly addressing believers. Some of these "believers" have been chastened so severely that they have died. When it says "fallen asleep" it means they died. Especially note that Paul says "WHEN WE are judged this way BY THE LORD..." He is most definitely addressing believers---including HIMSELF in his own exhortation.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

That you aren't really thinking about who Peter was addressing--Jews--and the significance of baptizing in the name of Jesus (which doesn't go against Matt. 28:19 anyway), who was the Messiah and God in human flesh, and whom they murdered. It is not an insignificant detail regarding baptism in the name of Jesus.


Well, not really. Some of the people might be the same, but most of them are not. The issues are that the oldest manuscripts do not contain the longer ending of Mark (vv. 9-20), and every manuscript of Matthew that contains the ending (because many manuscripts are fragmentary and missing sections), has the Great Commission as it is commonly written. So, the evidence is in favour of the shorter ending of Mark and the inclusion of Matt. 28:19.

So according to you then my friend, just throw the Scripture out with the baby and the bath water. I’m sorry, most everything thing you say, is against God’s Word. Your reasoning is not scriptural, but it seems your learning is from pass down doctrines of men you claim as scholars. Nothing I can do to help you my friend, take care now.

 

[Whatever]

Paul is clearly addressing believers. Some of these "believers" have been chastened so severely that they have died.

He is addressing people who were members of the Corinthian Church. Paul does not know who is truly born again and who isn't. So those who died didn't have to be born again, just members of the Church.

I figured you'd throw in "the flesh and the devil." They are part of this worldly experience. You can't be overcome by the flesh or the devil and still go on to overcome the world.

Jesus says 3 times in Matthew that "he who endures to the end shall be saved." It also says in Revelation to the 7 Churches that "he or him who overcomes" will get to eat from the tree of line and so forth.

Actually what you are saying sounds like the Hyper Calvinist understanding of "once saved always saved" that you can get saved, then live like the devil, and still make it to heaven.
Here is the more orthodox understanding called Perseverance of the Saints. Compare #1 with #3

Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

1. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

But somewhere, God turns them around, not kill them to take them to Heaven.
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

[Fish153]

That you aren't really thinking about who Peter was addressing--Jews--and the significance of baptizing in the name of Jesus (which doesn't go against Matt. 28:19 anyway), who was the Messiah and God in human flesh, and whom they murdered. It is not an insignificant detail regarding baptism in the name of Jesus.


Well, not really. Some of the people might be the same, but most of them are not. The issues are that the oldest manuscripts do not contain the longer ending of Mark (vv. 9-20), and every manuscript of Matthew that contains the ending (because many manuscripts are fragmentary and missing sections), has the Great Commission as it is commonly written. So, the evidence is in favour of the shorter ending of Mark and the inclusion of Matt. 28:19.

Free----

Interesting fact: If you remove verses 9-20 from Mark 16 do you know how many total verses you have for the whole Gospel of Mark? 666 verses. Check it out yourself.
The Gospel of Mark has a total of 678 verses1. It has 16 chapters, with varying numbers of verses per chapter, ranging from 20 to 721.
So take 678 verses and subtract verses 9-20: 12 verses. 678 - 12 = 666.

I believe removing verses 9-20 from Mark is the Devil's work: "Has God said??" It makes us question whether verses 9-20 are really scripture, doesn't it? Yes. The devil must really hate verses 9-20 of Mark. One reason I think he hates those verses is that within them is the only place in the Gospels where it says that Jesus ascended to Heaven and sat down beside the Father in glory. "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God". (Mark 16:19)

That is the place the devil wants! He wants to sit on the throne. He wants to ASCEND into Heaven and sit on the throne of God. So he absolutely HATES that verse! So he tried to remove it. He got MODERN scholars questioning whether verses 9-20 should be part of Mark. It's only RECENTLY that there is a note after verse 8 which says "older manuscripts do not include these verses". Verses 9-20 have been accepted for hundreds of years as authentic. Think about it. i wanted to share this because I think it is very important.

 

[Whatever]

So take 678 verses and subtract verses 9-20: 12 verses. 678 - 12 = 666.

Verses and chapters were added by man way after Mark was written.

 

[Fish153]

He is addressing people who were members of the Corinthian Church. Paul does not know who is truly born again and who isn't. So those who died didn't have to be born again, just members of the Church.

I figured you'd throw in "the flesh and the devil." They are part of this worldly experience. You can't be overcome by the flesh or the devil and still go on to overcome the world.

Jesus says 3 times in Matthew that "he who endures to the end shall be saved." It also says in Revelation to the 7 Churches that "he or him who overcomes" will get to eat from the tree of line and so forth.

Actually what you are saying sounds like the Hyper Calvinist understanding of "once saved always saved" that you can get saved, then live like the devil, and still make it to heaven.
Here is the more orthodox understanding called Perseverance of the Saints. Compare #1 with #3

Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

1. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

But somewhere, God turns them around, not kill them to take them to Heaven.
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Whatever--
You said:"Actually what you are saying sounds like the Hyper Calvinist understanding of "once saved always saved" that you can get saved, then live like the devil, and still make it to heaven."

That is frequently said by Arminians, but without understanding. A TRULY SAVED individual never believes they can "live like the devil and stil make it to Heaven". If someone really believes that then they were never saved to begin with. No Calvinist would ever teach that---yet it is repeated and repeated by those who hate the doctrine of "Once saved always saved" or "Eternal Security".

It's OK if you want to disbelieve what I shared from 1 Corinthians---that God, in chastening, will take the lives of his children if need be so that they WILL NOT be judged with the world. Once they are his children they are FOREVER his children. Ananias and Sapphira are also good examples of believers taken home by God. He was very severe when the church first started--to insure other believers saw the severity of their actions towards God and others. It is rare indeed---but God HAS taken the lives of some believers in the past----and may do so even now-----how do we know? When we hear of a young Christian being killed how do we know what has really happened? They cannot die unless GOD ALLOWS IT. So, for us to say God will not take his children home if needed in his judgment--how can we really say that with authority? God works according to his own will.

I don't say that to invoke fear. As stated, it appears to be very rare. But Paul does state it in 1 Corinthians 11 concerning the Lord's supper, so I think it is real. God is extremely merciful and filled with lovingkindness towards his children. But God also is free to exercise His own judgment, so I am not going to discount it.

 

[Fish153]

Verses and chapters were added by man way after Mark was written.

How do we know that? God knows EVERYTHING. Did God KNOW that there would be a translation made in 1611 called the King James Bible and that it would be divided into chapters and verses? No, you say--man did that. OK--then check this out:

Go to Acts 16:11: "Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis.." How many books are in the New Testament? 27. 16+11= 27. Acts 16:11. Note the word WE in this verse. It is the first time WE is used in Acts. Luke wrote Acts and he is stating that he joined Paul at this point of his journey. Luke wrote (2) books of the Bible: Luke and Acts. Paul wrote (14) books. 14+2 = 16, leaving 11 written by others. There is (1611) again. Did God KNOW that there would one day be an Acts 16, verse 11?

Now---note the word "day" in Acts 16:11. It is the 1611th time that the word appears in the Bible. No--really--it is. At least in the King James version it is. It is literally the 1611th time the word is found in the Bible---and it is in Acts 16:11. Coincidence? Now lastly---check this out.
"Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis" (Acts 16:11).

Did God know that the place called SAMOTHRACIA would be in Acts 16:11 one day? Luke wrote Acts without Chapters and verses. But was it man who added the chapters and verses? Or was it God who DIRECTED man to divide it that way? I want to ask you to do something, and then think about it seriously. Please go to this link:

Samothrace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now----scroll down under the picture, and under the map of Greece and go to "highest elevation". Is this coincidence? The word Samothrace is found in Acts 16:11 and look at it's highest elevation in meters. Did God create this Island at this exact height because he knew one day it would be mentioned in a Acts 16:11? I think so. I don't think man created Chapters and verses----I think God LED man to divide the Bible into the way it is.

 

[Free]

So according to you then my friend, just throw the Scripture out with the baby and the bath water.

No. There is no way to come to that conclusion based on what I said.

I’m sorry, most everything thing you say, is against God’s Word.

And yet you have not only not shown that to be the case, you continue to ignore much of what I have posted.

Your reasoning is not scriptural, but it seems your learning is from pass down doctrines of men you claim as scholars.

My reasoning is both scriptural and sound. You haven’t shown otherwise.

 

[Free]

Free----

Interesting fact: If you remove verses 9-20 from Mark 16 do you know how many total verses you have for the whole Gospel of Mark? 666 verses. Check it out yourself.
The Gospel of Mark has a total of 678 verses1. It has 16 chapters, with varying numbers of verses per chapter, ranging from 20 to 721.
So take 678 verses and subtract verses 9-20: 12 verses. 678 - 12 = 666.

I believe removing verses 9-20 from Mark is the Devil's work: "Has God said??" It makes us question whether verses 9-20 are really scripture, doesn't it? Yes. The devil must really hate verses 9-20 of Mark. One reason I think he hates those verses is that within them is the only place in the Gospels where it says that Jesus ascended to Heaven and sat down beside the Father in glory. "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God". (Mark 16:19)

That is the place the devil wants! He wants to sit on the throne. He wants to ASCEND into Heaven and sit on the throne of God. So he absolutely HATES that verse! So he tried to remove it. He got MODERN scholars questioning whether verses 9-20 should be part of Mark. It's only RECENTLY that there is a note after verse 8 which says "older manuscripts do not include these verses". Verses 9-20 have been accepted for hundreds of years as authentic. Think about it. i wanted to share this because I think it is very important.

First, as long interesting as that is, it is fallaciously begging he question, by beginning with the assumption that those verses are supposed to be in there. Second, it is getting into superstition and therefore misuse of the number of 666, which is the number of a man, not the number of verses that must not be allowed in the Mark’s gospel.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

No. There is no way to come to that conclusion based on what I said.


And yet you have not only not shown that to be the case, you continue to ignore much of what I have posted.


My reasoning is both scriptural and sound. You haven’t shown otherwise.

Sorry my dear friend, I can’t show you anything, your heart and mind is fixed already there is no way, I could help you in anyway. You take care, I hope you will be well.

 

[Hopeful 2]

What is the Name of the Father? you said Jesus, that is true. Just to give you a simple explanation of how important a name is, try to cash a check writing Father on the signature line, try buying a house, using father as your name. try convincing the police your name is father, when he has pulled you over for a speeding citation. I said all of that, just so you may know the IMPORTANCE OF A NAME. My goodness I have never heard such foolishness.

Then we are on the same page.

 

[Anchor Of Hope]

Then we are on the same page.

If you believe everyone must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, yes we are on the same page. 99.9% of the modern church world does not believe that. Therefore, 99.9% of the modern church world is wrong.