ezra
Member
- Sep 17, 2012
- 6,179
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might i ask the same about the Church of Christ . the name above the door is not important whats in the heart is...
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Danus
Member
- Jan 17, 2010
- 3,674
- 142
The ability to trace one's church back to the “first church” through apostolic succession is an argument used by a number of different churches to assert that their church is the “one true church.” The Roman Catholic Church makes this claim. The Greek Orthodox Church makes this claim. Some Protestant denominations make this claim. Some of the “Christian” cults make this claim. How do we know which church is correct? The biblical answer is – it does not matter!
The first church, its growth, doctrine, and practices, were recorded for us in the New Testament. Jesus, as well as His apostles, foretold that false teachers would arise, and indeed it is apparent from some of the New Testament epistles that these apostles had to fight against false teachers early on. Having a pedigree of apostolic succession or being able to trace a church's roots back to the "first church" is nowhere in Scripture given as a test for being the true church. What is given is repeated comparisons between what false teachers teach and what the first church taught, as recorded in Scripture. Whether a church is the "true church" or not is determined by comparing its teachings and practices to that of the New Testament church, as recorded in Scripture.
For instance, in Acts 20:17-38, the Apostle Paul has an opportunity to talk to the church leaders in the large city of Ephesus one last time face to face. In that passage, he tells them that false teachers will not only come among them but will come FROM them (vv. 29-30). Paul does not set forth the teaching that they were to follow the "first" organized church as a safeguard for the truth. Rather, he commits them to the safekeeping of "God and to the word of His grace" (v. 32). Thus, truth could be determined by depending upon God and "the word of His grace" (i.e., Scripture, see John 10:35).
This dependence upon the Word of God, rather than following certain individual "founders" is seen again in Galatians 1:8-9, in which Paul states, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." Thus, the basis for determining truth from error is not based upon even WHO it is that is teaching it, “we or an angel from heaven,” but whether it is the same gospel that they had already received – and this gospel is recorded in Scripture.
Another example of this dependence upon the Word of God is found in 2 Peter. In this epistle, the Apostle Peter is fighting against false teachers. In doing so, Peter begins by mentioning that we have a "more sure word" to depend upon than even hearing the voice of God from heaven as they did at Jesus' transfiguration (2 Peter 1:16-21). This “more sure word” is the written Word of God. Peter later tells them again to be mindful of "the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets and the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior" (2 Peter 3:2). Both the words of the holy prophets and the commandments Jesus gave to the apostles are recorded in Scripture.
How do we determine whether a church is teaching correct doctrine or not? The only infallible standard that Scripture says that we have is the Bible (Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 2:25; Galatians 1:6-9). Tradition is a part of every church, and that tradition must be compared to God's Word, lest it go against what is true (Mark 7:1-13). It is true that the cults and sometimes orthodox churches twist the interpretation of Scripture to support their practices; nonetheless, Scripture, when taken in context and faithfully studied, is able to guide one to the truth.
The “first church” is the church that is recorded in the New Testament, especially in the Book of Acts and the Epistles of Paul. The New Testament church is the “original church” and the “one true church.” We can know this because it is described, in great detail, in Scripture. The church, as recorded in the New Testament, is God’s pattern and foundation for His church. On this basis, let’s examine the Roman Catholic claim that it is the “first church.” Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the “one true church” doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles. All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church? A study of the New Testament will clearly reveal that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as the church that is described in the New Testament.
The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. In the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries, history records several Roman Catholic doctrines and practices among early Christians. Is it not logical that the earliest Christians would be more likely to understand what the Apostles truly meant? Yes, it is logical, but there is one problem. Christians in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries were not the earliest Christians. Again, the New Testament records the doctrine and practice of the earliest Christians…and, the New Testament does not teach Roman Catholicism. What is the explanation for why the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century church began to exhibit signs of Roman Catholicism?
The answer is simple – the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form. At the same time, it is easy to see how false doctrine could creep into a church that only had access to the Book of Galatians, for example. It is very interesting to note that the Protestant Reformation followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.
Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.
http://www.gotquestions.org/original-church.html
The first church, its growth, doctrine, and practices, were recorded for us in the New Testament. Jesus, as well as His apostles, foretold that false teachers would arise, and indeed it is apparent from some of the New Testament epistles that these apostles had to fight against false teachers early on. Having a pedigree of apostolic succession or being able to trace a church's roots back to the "first church" is nowhere in Scripture given as a test for being the true church. What is given is repeated comparisons between what false teachers teach and what the first church taught, as recorded in Scripture. Whether a church is the "true church" or not is determined by comparing its teachings and practices to that of the New Testament church, as recorded in Scripture.
For instance, in Acts 20:17-38, the Apostle Paul has an opportunity to talk to the church leaders in the large city of Ephesus one last time face to face. In that passage, he tells them that false teachers will not only come among them but will come FROM them (vv. 29-30). Paul does not set forth the teaching that they were to follow the "first" organized church as a safeguard for the truth. Rather, he commits them to the safekeeping of "God and to the word of His grace" (v. 32). Thus, truth could be determined by depending upon God and "the word of His grace" (i.e., Scripture, see John 10:35).
This dependence upon the Word of God, rather than following certain individual "founders" is seen again in Galatians 1:8-9, in which Paul states, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." Thus, the basis for determining truth from error is not based upon even WHO it is that is teaching it, “we or an angel from heaven,” but whether it is the same gospel that they had already received – and this gospel is recorded in Scripture.
Another example of this dependence upon the Word of God is found in 2 Peter. In this epistle, the Apostle Peter is fighting against false teachers. In doing so, Peter begins by mentioning that we have a "more sure word" to depend upon than even hearing the voice of God from heaven as they did at Jesus' transfiguration (2 Peter 1:16-21). This “more sure word” is the written Word of God. Peter later tells them again to be mindful of "the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets and the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior" (2 Peter 3:2). Both the words of the holy prophets and the commandments Jesus gave to the apostles are recorded in Scripture.
How do we determine whether a church is teaching correct doctrine or not? The only infallible standard that Scripture says that we have is the Bible (Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 2:25; Galatians 1:6-9). Tradition is a part of every church, and that tradition must be compared to God's Word, lest it go against what is true (Mark 7:1-13). It is true that the cults and sometimes orthodox churches twist the interpretation of Scripture to support their practices; nonetheless, Scripture, when taken in context and faithfully studied, is able to guide one to the truth.
The “first church” is the church that is recorded in the New Testament, especially in the Book of Acts and the Epistles of Paul. The New Testament church is the “original church” and the “one true church.” We can know this because it is described, in great detail, in Scripture. The church, as recorded in the New Testament, is God’s pattern and foundation for His church. On this basis, let’s examine the Roman Catholic claim that it is the “first church.” Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the “one true church” doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles. All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church? A study of the New Testament will clearly reveal that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as the church that is described in the New Testament.
The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. In the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries, history records several Roman Catholic doctrines and practices among early Christians. Is it not logical that the earliest Christians would be more likely to understand what the Apostles truly meant? Yes, it is logical, but there is one problem. Christians in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries were not the earliest Christians. Again, the New Testament records the doctrine and practice of the earliest Christians…and, the New Testament does not teach Roman Catholicism. What is the explanation for why the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century church began to exhibit signs of Roman Catholicism?
The answer is simple – the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form. At the same time, it is easy to see how false doctrine could creep into a church that only had access to the Book of Galatians, for example. It is very interesting to note that the Protestant Reformation followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.
Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.
http://www.gotquestions.org/original-church.html
R
rrowell
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I believe most CoC congregations try to worship the same as the one true Church and those that do are a part of the Church Christ built.
..psssttt, the OP of this thread is "Bible Authority", I asked since you are a Baptist Evangelist if you could show me with Bible authority when a Baptist person becomes penitent... and challenged the authority by which a Baptist person believes they become "saved"
I believe the only ones in paradise at this time are those who belong to the one true Church (Church of Christ or not), there are many who call them self Church of Christ and do not follow the teachings of the New Testament Church making them just as apt to hear our lord say the same thing I believe all denomination will hear one day Mat. 7:22-23 as they do not follow "Bible Authority"
My whole point is, if they are a "denomination" they simply cannot be doing the best that they can, there is no bible authority for "denomination".
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rrowell
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might i ask the same about the Church of Christ . the name above the door is not important whats in the heart is...
Ah yes, what is in a name, you are correct in a way, there is no name given to the Church Christ built, the bible only gives us many descriptions of it, however we can see as far back as "Abram" that the Lord is very particular about names.
The reason the congregations that call them selves "Church of Christ" do so is because Christ said "I will build my Church" Mat. 16:18, as well by the way in which the Apostle Paul addressed the Lords Congregations in his Epistles. Rom. 16:16
There is in fact Biblical Authority of which the CoC displays its name, since you are a baptist evangelist, may I ask can the Baptist say the same?
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rrowell
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- #25
Danus my friend, your are back, long posts and all LoL. so I will stop you here, by what authority does the churches you mention above even wear their name to start? as we delve into their broken away forms of worship we too would need to have authority for the many forms of worship they have broken down to... so pick one of the ones you listed above? the discussion is "Bible Authority" show the Bible Authority of being a denomination period Danus?
Danus
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- Jan 17, 2010
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Hello rrowell. Yes back on a limited basis.
I don't think I can expand on my post for further explanation. I believe the answer to your question is in fact in the post. However, on a personal note, and I've expressed this before, Christianity is not about following a church or wearing a label. In fact it is not even about what one knows of the bible. It's a condition of heart, which determines what one knows of Gods word, and how they worship, live their lives, etcetera.....
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rrowell
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- #27
Christianity Danus is "Following Christ" and one can only do that by His "Authority" so if it is not of His "Authority" it is not Christian.
ezra
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- Sep 17, 2012
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your so far wrapped up in church of christ==== indoctrinated by the church of christ no matter the answer it will be wrong. being baptist has nothing to do with it. you can be claim to be church of christ by name Methodist baptist the list goes on and on. if a person has not had a spiritual birth they aint saved... i realize most Church of Christ feel they are the true Church and all else is reprobates ... all a person has to do i listen one time. as for me the flavor does not matter if your saved your part of the true Church.. the body of christ which has many members. .
yuppers just like any other denomination. one last though about name tags.. it will either fall off going up or burn off going down..
i am %100 right **** take the church name blinders off and you can see the other members of the Body
:amen or o me
ezra
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- Sep 17, 2012
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his authority is the word of GOD guided by his holy spirit we do this by faith .we are given the authority power in the name of Jesus so who so ever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be Saved. you keep post about repentance which is turning from changing our way of thinking. i really dont like getting point blank but i can. once again its not the name on the building .nor the name you go by. its Christ in you the Hope of Glory. peter wrote we have a lively Hope by the resurrection . not a name tag we think the authority is in.
:amen Danus your exactly right
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rrowell
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- #30
Correction, I am not wrapped up in the "Church of Christ" I am wrapped up in "Christs Church", it just so happens that the congregations that go by the name "Church of Christ" I believe try to serve the Lord the way the bible teaches "Christs Church" to do...
Yes, the lords church (the body) has many members, but not denominations (divisions)... and the divisions come from not following "Bible Authority".
You speak of spiritual birth and salvation, the authority (bible) says to "worketh repentance to salvation" (note even with repentance salvation is not yet reached by the word 'to' so a requirement for salvation) :
2 Corinthians 7:10 (KJV)
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Yet the Baptist and others say they are saved the moment they believe, so I ask again, at what time do these denominations become penitent, how can one under this doctrine obey the command of Christ to "repent" when they are saved the moment they believe obviously having nothing to repent of?
I said before, the Bible gives no name for the Lords Church, only descriptions. but if one has to put a name on a building, it should be in the name of the one who built it, don't you think?
Again, the members are of the one body, division and denomination are synonymous therefore a denomination is in fact not the bride of Christ.i am %100 right **** take the church name blinders off and you can see the other members of the Body
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rrowell
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- #31
"call upon the name of the Lord", that comes up a lot, yet most do not understand it, to "call upon the name of the Lord' is to "call upon his authority" or in other words "obey his commands" <-- all of them.
Again, the "authority" does not give the Lords Church a name, only a description, but If you built something would you think it proper to have any other name than yours?, this is why the CoC uses that name to hang on the building.you keep post about repentance which is turning from changing our way of thinking. i really dont like getting point blank but i can. once again its not the name on the building .nor the name you go by. its Christ in you the Hope of Glory. peter wrote we have a lively Hope by the resurrection . not a name tag we think the authority is in. :amen Danus your exactly right
And yes I keep bringing up repentance to you, because you are a Baptist evangelist I think best to ask you the question, and Ill ask it again, since the Baptist faith (as you stated above) only requires you to call on the name of the lord, then how can one obey the command as a Baptist to "repent" as he would have nothing to repent of? and since you cannot answer that, then it appears there is more to "calling upon the name of the Lord" than what the Baptist teach?
ezra
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- Sep 17, 2012
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welll the same way coc does the repentance will come after salvation it would be combined at the new birth repent means turn from so this takes action on our part the Blood Atonement cleanses us whole the moment we get saved and the WE is not baptist . the we is the who so ever shall... .... why do you insist that its a baptist thing or church of christ? what are you going to do when you find out that its just not the church of christ name tag you cling to. makes it to heaven but others who are not of your church of christ name tag. any child of God who is saved comes to jesus as wrote in Romans 10:9-10. so tell me how did you get saved? baptized in the name of jesus? i was saved 1st then baptized...................:amen
your getting really close to legalism you come to jesus just as you are. get saved he does the rest --------GRACE
ezra
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- Sep 17, 2012
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Authority
The concept of authority seldom appears in the Old Testament. It is used predominantly in the New Testament, where the word exousia [ἐξουσία] functions in at least four ways.
First, authority is the freedom to decide or a right to act without hindrance. All such authority begins with God, for there is no authority except from God (Rom 13:1). God has the right to mold the clay as he wishes (Rom 9:21) and to set times and dates (Acts 1:7). God gave Paul the right to preach the gospel (1 Co 9:18). Believers have the right to become children of God (John 1:12), and they have freedom with respect to the law (1 Co 8:9). While authority is valueless without the power to make it effective, we can make a fine distinction between the two concepts. This first understanding of authority, then, is distinct from power and refers primarily to a prerogative.
Second, the concept of authority refers to the power, ability, or capability to complete an action. Jesus was given the authority to forgive sins (Matt 9:6-8) and to drive out spirits (Mark 6:7). Jesus gave seventy-two disciples the authority to trample on snakes and scorpions (Luke 10:19). Simon sought power to grant the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:19). Satan has authority to function within the parameters established by God (Acts 26:18).
Third, the word "authority" is used with reference to delegated authority in the form of a warrant, license, or authorization to perform. Jesus was asked by whose authorization he taught (Matt 21:23). He was granted authority for his ministry from God the Father (John 10:18). Saul was sent to Damascus to persecute Christians by warrant of the priests (Acts 26:12). God gave the apostles license to build up the church (2 Co 10:8).
Fourth, by a natural extension of meaning, exousia [ἐξουσία] sometimes denotes the sphere in which authority is exercised. God has established spheres of authority in the world, such as civil government. Jesus was handed over to the official power of the governor (Luke 20:20). When Pilate learned that Jesus was under Herod's jurisdiction or authority, the governor sent him to Herod (Luke 23:7). Rulers and kings have their spheres of influence (Ro 13:1), as does Satan (Col 1:13), but Christ has been placed above all realms of authority (Eph 1:21). More often exousia [ἐξουσία] refers to the power employed by rulers or others in high positions by virtue of their office, such as civil magistrates (Titus 3:1). This use of authority indicates a social relation between at least two individuals where one is the ruler. The subordinate in the relationship accepts the ruler's orders, not by external constraint but out of the conviction that the ruler is entitled to give orders and that it is the duty of the subject to obey and recognize the authenticity of the ruler's position and orders.
From a theological perspective the fourth use of authority is most significant. The question of authority is a fundamental issue facing every person, especially the believer. Its significance cannot be overestimated. Every person has an authority in life that he or she submits to as a subordinate, not by constraint but by conviction. Furthermore, God has created human beings to live under his authority. When they choose to live under a different rule, that of self or an idol, they sin. This is, in a simple summary, the teaching of Genesis 1-3. That portion of Scripture illustrates the human tendency, moved by pride, to seek independence from external authority and to establish self as the final authority in life.
How, then, does God exercise his authority over creation and his creatures? The testimony of Scripture is that God has established three fundamental spheres of authority within which he delegates authority to individuals. These spheres are civil government, the home, and the church. The believer is obliged to obey those holding authority in those realms. Citizens are to submit to the governing authorities (1 Pe 2:13-14). Children are to obey parents (Eph 6:1-2). Believers were to honor spiritual authorities such as apostles who demanded compliance on the basis of their commission from the Lord. There are exceptions. When a person in authority violates the trust granted by God, the source of all authority, the subordinate is free, indeed mandated, "to obey God rather than man" (Acts 5:29). The apostle Peter provides the clearest example of what is called civil disobedience. In his epistle he encourages disciples of Christ to submit to governing authorities (1 Peter 2:13). According to Luke, however, when the governing authorities commanded Peter to cease preaching, he disobeyed (Acts 5:29).
The issue facing contemporary Christians is how God exercises his authority in the spiritual realm, that is, the church. In the Old Testament, the answer was clear. God exercised his authority through prophets, priests, and kings. At the time of Christ, the disciples submitted to the lordship of God the Father through obedience to Jesus. Christ, then, delegated authority to the apostles, who directed the affairs of the primitive church. When Christ comes again, he will reign from a new throne in the new city. How does God in Christ exercise his authority in the dispensation between his comings?
Has the authority of the apostles been transmitted through the tradition or by episcopal consecration? The evangelical response to that question, uncovered in the Protestant Reformation, is soLam Scriptura. Evangelical theology appeals to the authority of Scripture because it views the Bible as the written Word of God, pointing beyond itself to the absolute authority, the living and transcendent Word of God. God exercises authority over the church through the Scriptures, which impart authoritative truth. The Bible issues definitive directives. It offers an authoritative norm by which all doctrine and principles must be shaped for both individual believers and the church. The Bible is a record and explanation of divine revelation that is both complete (sufficient) and comprehensible (perspicuous); that is to say, it contains all that the church needs to know in this world for its guidance in the way of salvation and service.
The concept of authority seldom appears in the Old Testament. It is used predominantly in the New Testament, where the word exousia [ἐξουσία] functions in at least four ways.
First, authority is the freedom to decide or a right to act without hindrance. All such authority begins with God, for there is no authority except from God (Rom 13:1). God has the right to mold the clay as he wishes (Rom 9:21) and to set times and dates (Acts 1:7). God gave Paul the right to preach the gospel (1 Co 9:18). Believers have the right to become children of God (John 1:12), and they have freedom with respect to the law (1 Co 8:9). While authority is valueless without the power to make it effective, we can make a fine distinction between the two concepts. This first understanding of authority, then, is distinct from power and refers primarily to a prerogative.
Second, the concept of authority refers to the power, ability, or capability to complete an action. Jesus was given the authority to forgive sins (Matt 9:6-8) and to drive out spirits (Mark 6:7). Jesus gave seventy-two disciples the authority to trample on snakes and scorpions (Luke 10:19). Simon sought power to grant the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:19). Satan has authority to function within the parameters established by God (Acts 26:18).
Third, the word "authority" is used with reference to delegated authority in the form of a warrant, license, or authorization to perform. Jesus was asked by whose authorization he taught (Matt 21:23). He was granted authority for his ministry from God the Father (John 10:18). Saul was sent to Damascus to persecute Christians by warrant of the priests (Acts 26:12). God gave the apostles license to build up the church (2 Co 10:8).
Fourth, by a natural extension of meaning, exousia [ἐξουσία] sometimes denotes the sphere in which authority is exercised. God has established spheres of authority in the world, such as civil government. Jesus was handed over to the official power of the governor (Luke 20:20). When Pilate learned that Jesus was under Herod's jurisdiction or authority, the governor sent him to Herod (Luke 23:7). Rulers and kings have their spheres of influence (Ro 13:1), as does Satan (Col 1:13), but Christ has been placed above all realms of authority (Eph 1:21). More often exousia [ἐξουσία] refers to the power employed by rulers or others in high positions by virtue of their office, such as civil magistrates (Titus 3:1). This use of authority indicates a social relation between at least two individuals where one is the ruler. The subordinate in the relationship accepts the ruler's orders, not by external constraint but out of the conviction that the ruler is entitled to give orders and that it is the duty of the subject to obey and recognize the authenticity of the ruler's position and orders.
From a theological perspective the fourth use of authority is most significant. The question of authority is a fundamental issue facing every person, especially the believer. Its significance cannot be overestimated. Every person has an authority in life that he or she submits to as a subordinate, not by constraint but by conviction. Furthermore, God has created human beings to live under his authority. When they choose to live under a different rule, that of self or an idol, they sin. This is, in a simple summary, the teaching of Genesis 1-3. That portion of Scripture illustrates the human tendency, moved by pride, to seek independence from external authority and to establish self as the final authority in life.
How, then, does God exercise his authority over creation and his creatures? The testimony of Scripture is that God has established three fundamental spheres of authority within which he delegates authority to individuals. These spheres are civil government, the home, and the church. The believer is obliged to obey those holding authority in those realms. Citizens are to submit to the governing authorities (1 Pe 2:13-14). Children are to obey parents (Eph 6:1-2). Believers were to honor spiritual authorities such as apostles who demanded compliance on the basis of their commission from the Lord. There are exceptions. When a person in authority violates the trust granted by God, the source of all authority, the subordinate is free, indeed mandated, "to obey God rather than man" (Acts 5:29). The apostle Peter provides the clearest example of what is called civil disobedience. In his epistle he encourages disciples of Christ to submit to governing authorities (1 Peter 2:13). According to Luke, however, when the governing authorities commanded Peter to cease preaching, he disobeyed (Acts 5:29).
The issue facing contemporary Christians is how God exercises his authority in the spiritual realm, that is, the church. In the Old Testament, the answer was clear. God exercised his authority through prophets, priests, and kings. At the time of Christ, the disciples submitted to the lordship of God the Father through obedience to Jesus. Christ, then, delegated authority to the apostles, who directed the affairs of the primitive church. When Christ comes again, he will reign from a new throne in the new city. How does God in Christ exercise his authority in the dispensation between his comings?
Has the authority of the apostles been transmitted through the tradition or by episcopal consecration? The evangelical response to that question, uncovered in the Protestant Reformation, is soLam Scriptura. Evangelical theology appeals to the authority of Scripture because it views the Bible as the written Word of God, pointing beyond itself to the absolute authority, the living and transcendent Word of God. God exercises authority over the church through the Scriptures, which impart authoritative truth. The Bible issues definitive directives. It offers an authoritative norm by which all doctrine and principles must be shaped for both individual believers and the church. The Bible is a record and explanation of divine revelation that is both complete (sufficient) and comprehensible (perspicuous); that is to say, it contains all that the church needs to know in this world for its guidance in the way of salvation and service.
R
rrowell
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- Thread starter
- #34
No, that is not the way that the bible teaches, you have it backwards, and exactly why I ask you as a Baptist (not picking on the Baptist, but you happen to evangelize the teachings of the Baptist, and other denominations believe as you).
Lets go back to the start of the early Church, Acts 2:37 :
Acts 2:37 (KJV)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
It cannot be more clear here that they "believed on the name of the Lord" the moment they were "pricked in their heart" affirmed by the worrisome question that followed "Men and brethren, what shall we do?", assuredly you cannot say from the point they believed here, they were "saved" else why would they worry about "what shall we do?".
Peter now in the next verse tells them exactly what they must do:
Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them,Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It was after they repented and were baptized (what they must do) that they were saved...
Now explain to me by the authority of what does the Baptist or any other denomination use to get around this command (it is a command and no other command trumps another command)
I believe I have mentioned that the name adorned on the building that the congregation I assemble with has nothing to do with what is taught inside. there is no name in the Bible that was given to the Lords Church other than he said it was His, and several other descriptions of it, because he said it was His, and He built it, and Paul called the assemblies of the day "Churches of Christ" the members I assemble with feel it appropriate to place that on the sign in front of the building they assemble in.
It walked through the steps of faith: Rom. 4:12
- Heard the Gospel: John 20:30-31 Romans 10:17
- Believed it: Romans 1:16
- Repented: <-gota do this before saved: Luke 13:3, Luke 24:47, Acts. 3:19, Acts 17:30
- Confess faith in Christ: Rom. 10:9-10, Acts 8:37
- Be Baptized: Mat. 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts. 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts. 22:16, Romans 6:1-6, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:12, 1 Pet. 3:21
- Be faithful Unto and Until Death: Mat. 25:21 Mat. 25:34, 2 Pet. 1:1-11, Rev. 2:10, 1 John 1:6-9
If following the Law of Liberty is what you call legalistic then that is what I am.
ezra
Member
- Sep 17, 2012
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water baptism does not save you..Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: {justified means declared righteous not guilty} } ---Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law..........Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:.........Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him........1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. " you have to go beyond the book of acts.." your not following the law of liberty your only following part of it. we are justified and sanctified at the moment of the new birth.. Ephesians 2:8-10 by grace through faith not of works. baptism is out ward sign salvation is inward of the heart. i suggest you read your bible more close..
please note the word baptism is not mentioned paul writtings backs up the 4 gosples
roman Road To Salvation
By Kevin Haag
The Roman Road to salvation is a collection of verses from the book of Romans explaining God’s free gift of eternal life. Follow these verses to learn why we need salvation, God’s plan of salvation, how to receive salvation, God’s promise of eternal life, and the results of salvation.
1st stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
God Is The Creator Of Life
Romans 1:20-21: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.” God reveals himself to us - His divine nature and personal qualities - through creation. We must acknowledge God as the Creator and sustainer of life.
2nd stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Why We Need Salvation – The Fact Of Our Sin
Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We must recognize that we are sinners and that we do not meet God’s perfect standards. Sin is serious in God’s sight and includes thoughts, words and actions. All sin (i.e. hatred and lust) makes us sinners not just the big, obvious sins like murder and adultery (Romans 5:12).
3rd stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Man’s Inability
Romans 3:10: “As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one.” No one can earn right standing with God. We must understand that our good deeds or religion are unacceptable to God because our good works cannot cancel out our sin. For a view of man’s sinful condition, read Romans 3:10-18.
4th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
The Penalty Of Sin
Romans 6:23a: “For the wages of sin is death.” God’s holiness demands a penalty (consequence) for our sin, which is death. Eternal death is separation from God forever in Hell. God is a just God, and He demands punishment for every sin. Justice is getting what we deserve, because of our sin, we deserve death.
5th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
God’s Plan Of Salvation
Romans 5:8: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” God sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sin by dying on the cross. God is a God of mercy and He sent Jesus to take our sin upon Himself and the punishment we deserve. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, we deserve death, and Jesus took our place.
6th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
God’s Promise Of Eternal Life
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Eternal life is a free gift from God, there is nothing we can do to earn eternal life. Grace is getting what we don’t deserve. Because of God’s amazing grace, He has given us eternal life through Jesus Christ!
7th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Man’s Responsibility
Romans 10:9-10: “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” We must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God Who died for us on the cross, rose from the dead, and is Lord. We must put our trust in Jesus alone to make us right with God. Salvation involves believing in our hearts (inward belief) and an outward confession that Jesus is Lord.
Romans 10:13: “For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” There is no complicated formula to salvation; Jesus paid the price of our sin for us. Our response is to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If we do, we will be saved from eternal death in Hell to eternal life in Heaven.
Final Stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Results Of Salvation
Romans 8:1: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” By accepting Jesus’ death as a payment for our sins, we will never be condemned for our sins.
Romans 5:1: “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Peace with God means we have been reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ. We can now have a relationship with the living God because sin no longer separates us from Him.
B
BornAgain
Guest
- Thread starter
- #37
water baptism does not save you..Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: {justified means declared righteous not guilty} } ---Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law..........Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:.........Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him........1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. " you have to go beyond the book of acts.." your not following the law of liberty your only following part of it. we are justified and sanctified at the moment of the new birth.. Ephesians 2:8-10 by grace through faith not of works. baptism is out ward sign salvation is inward of the heart. i suggest you read your bible more close..
please note the word baptism is not mentioned paul writtings backs up the 4 gosples
roman Road To Salvation
By Kevin Haag
The Roman Road to salvation is a collection of verses from the book of Romans explaining God’s free gift of eternal life. Follow these verses to learn why we need salvation, God’s plan of salvation, how to receive salvation, God’s promise of eternal life, and the results of salvation.
1st stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
God Is The Creator Of Life
Romans 1:20-21: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.†God reveals himself to us - His divine nature and personal qualities - through creation. We must acknowledge God as the Creator and sustainer of life.
2nd stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Why We Need Salvation – The Fact Of Our Sin
Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.†We must recognize that we are sinners and that we do not meet God’s perfect standards. Sin is serious in God’s sight and includes thoughts, words and actions. All sin (i.e. hatred and lust) makes us sinners not just the big, obvious sins like murder and adultery (Romans 5:12).
3rd stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Man’s Inability
Romans 3:10: “As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one.†No one can earn right standing with God. We must understand that our good deeds or religion are unacceptable to God because our good works cannot cancel out our sin. For a view of man’s sinful condition, read Romans 3:10-18.
4th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
The Penalty Of Sin
Romans 6:23a: “For the wages of sin is death.†God’s holiness demands a penalty (consequence) for our sin, which is death. Eternal death is separation from God forever in Hell. God is a just God, and He demands punishment for every sin. Justice is getting what we deserve, because of our sin, we deserve death.
5th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
God’s Plan Of Salvation
Romans 5:8: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.†God sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sin by dying on the cross. God is a God of mercy and He sent Jesus to take our sin upon Himself and the punishment we deserve. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, we deserve death, and Jesus took our place.
6th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
God’s Promise Of Eternal Life
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.†Eternal life is a free gift from God, there is nothing we can do to earn eternal life. Grace is getting what we don’t deserve. Because of God’s amazing grace, He has given us eternal life through Jesus Christ!
7th stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Man’s Responsibility
Romans 10:9-10: “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.†We must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God Who died for us on the cross, rose from the dead, and is Lord. We must put our trust in Jesus alone to make us right with God. Salvation involves believing in our hearts (inward belief) and an outward confession that Jesus is Lord.
Romans 10:13: “For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.†There is no complicated formula to salvation; Jesus paid the price of our sin for us. Our response is to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If we do, we will be saved from eternal death in Hell to eternal life in Heaven.
Final Stop on the Roman Road To Salvation...
Results Of Salvation
Romans 8:1: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.†By accepting Jesus’ death as a payment for our sins, we will never be condemned for our sins.
Romans 5:1: “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.†Peace with God means we have been reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ. We can now have a relationship with the living God because sin no longer separates us from Him.
Ezra,
Water baptism is the only way to salvation:
Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48 Acts 22:16, Rom 6:1-6, Col 2:12, 1 Pet 3:21.
ezra
Member
- Sep 17, 2012
- 6,179
- 2,624
thats not what my bible says would you care to explain justified and why in those scriptures i posted it does not show baptism. water baptisim follows salvation..... christ was baptized did he need salvation 1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Commentaries > Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
21. whereunto--The oldest manuscripts read, "which": literally, "which (namely, water, in general; being) the antitype (of the water of the flood) is now saving (the salvation being not yet fully realized by us, compare 1Co 10:1, 2, 5; Jude 5; puts into a state of salvation) us also (two oldest manuscripts read 'you' for 'us': You also, as well as Noah and his party), to wit, baptism." Water saved Noah not of itself, but by sustaining the ark built in faith, resting on God's word: it was to him the sign and mean of a kind of regeneration, of the earth. The flood was for Noah a baptism, as the passage through the Red Sea was for the Israelites; by baptism in the flood he and his family were transferred from the old world to the new: from immediate destruction to lengthened probation; from the companionship of the wicked to communion with God; from the severing of all bonds between the creature and the Creator to the privileges of the covenant: so we by spiritual baptism. As there was a Ham who forfeited the privileges of the covenant, so many now. The antitypical water, namely, baptism, saves you also not of itself, nor the mere material water, but the spiritual thing conjoined with it, repentance and faith, of which it is the sign and seal, as Peter proceeds to explain. Compare the union of the sign and thing signified, Joh 3:5; Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5; Heb 10:22; compare 1Jo 5:6.
not the, &c.--"flesh" bears the emphasis. "Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" (as is done by a mere water baptism, unaccompanied with the Spirit's baptism, compare Eph 2:11), but of the soul. It is the ark (Christ and His Spirit-filled Church), not the water, which is the instrument of salvation: the water only flowed round the ark; so not the mere water baptism, but the water when accompanied with the Spirit.
answer--Greek, "interrogation"; referring to the questions asked of candidates for baptism; eliciting a confession of faith "toward God" and a renunciation of Satan ([AUGUSTINE, The Creed, 4.1]; [CYPRIAN, Epistles, 7, To Rogatianus]), which, when flowing from "a good conscience," assure one of being "saved." Literally, "a good conscience's interrogation (including the satisfactory answer) toward God." I prefer this to the translation of WAHL, ALFORD and others, "inquiry of a good conscience after God": not one of the parallels alleged, not even 2Sa 11:7, in the Septuagint, is strictly in point. Recent Byzantine Greek idiom (whereby the term meant: (1) the question; (2) the stipulation; (3) the engagement), easily flowing from the usage of the word as Peter has it, confirms the former translation.
by the resurrection of Jesus--joined with "saves you": In so far as baptism applies to us the power of Christ's resurrection. As Christ's death unto sin is the source of the believer's death unto, and so deliverance from, sin's penalty and power; so His resurrection life is the source of the believer's new spiritual life.
I believe salvation is via the shed Blood of Christ.
1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
ezra
Member
- Sep 17, 2012
- 6,179
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> (bapto); to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N.T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technical) of the ordinance of Christian baptism :- baptist, baptize, wash. the water does not save you.
6:6 Our old self (Gk palaios anthropos; lit "old man") is everything that we were before we became Christians. By contrast, the new self is what we are once we become Christians (Eph 4:22-24; Col 3:9-10). The new self is not perfect. We still sin because we have indwelling sin in our mortal bodies (Rm 7:13-25), but we are in the process of renewal (Eph 4; Col 3). Thus we have the answer to the question about whether a Christian can still live in sin. We cannot live as we once did because the "old self" was crucified with Him (Christ). In Christ the believer is a "new creation" (2Co 5:17).