Bible Study-Two (The Rapture)

[Gcront]

Bible Study-Two

The Rapture
I wish that I could write and find more encouragement about this word Rapture, for it is a word with a very-very sweet sound to us all, but studying all the old time Bible Scholars, there is nothing there. You can study the whole Bible, and there is nothing there. You can study all of Jesus’ teaching, and there is nothing there about this word Rapture. You can study all the historical prophecies of old, and there is nothing about this subject. Even most all of our large dictionary, cannot even confine or put this word Rapture together.
They write on one line that this is a state of being carried away with joy, then on the very next line they write that it is a seizer being carried away by violence. They then write that this is also the same as the rapture of a storm, being the ravishment of affliction. The only thing that Christ made very plain, was about his second coming that no man would know the time, and he sure didn’t lay out a map with a time limit when this shall come to pass.

The only thing that Christ talked about was that in the last days of Tribulations, that this time limit would have to be shorten for the very elects sake, or there would be no flesh saved. If Christ should then had Rapture the ordinary Christians out, then why would he have left these that was his very elect here to face these three and a half years of Tribulations and also three and a half years of Great Tribulations. With these very elect of God, being his very chosen people here on earth.
I don’t believe that God would have Rapture his ordinary Christians out, and then left his very elect here to face the Tribulations. This could have then only been that our many pastors was trying to pull this word Rapture together with their own great joy; this is that our pastors might build up their own congregation when it comes to their money givers. While they are living here in the last days, then we find in the Book of St. Matthew what Christ had to say about the last days.

Matt. 24:21-“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.â€Â
24:22-“And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.â€Â
24:24-“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.â€Â
24:25-“Behold, I have told you before.â€Â
24:26-“Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert go not forth: behold, he is in secret chamber; believe it not.â€Â

24:27-“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.â€Â
24:29-“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:â€Â
24:30-“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.â€Â

With our churches shaking and rocking on the inside, this is while our schools, government and everything else that God has given us the church domain over, we find that our courts have now frozen our God out. With and from our many trespasses, we rather think about God's Rapture unto the churches, before having to face God’s wrath here in our Tribulations, which is only coming from our own many down fall of the churches.
When I was growing up, our country it was also facing one of its own biggest changes within its own Christianity. For this was when we both were growing up at the same time, my Country and I and with us both becoming adults to sin at the same time. This is when we was also going through one of our biggest and greatest changes, I did not then realize that also my own country was also going through one of its own greatest change, within its own history of the age of time.

Looking through the complete Bible, the New and Old Testament, we can only find these two days prophesied through out the whole Bible. With his first day being the great day of the Lord, and also his second day being the dreadful or terrible day of the Lord. The great day was the first day that Christ came to earth as our Savior; the dreadful day shall be his Second Coming. This is when he shall come back within all his power and glories, the same as we have found in Christ’s teachings through out the Book of St. Matthews.
Now we also find only the prophecies of these two different days of the Lord coming, from the Book of Joel. 2:30-“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smokeâ€Â
2:31-“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before (the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.)â€Â
2:32-“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.â€Â

We also find this same prophecy in the Book of Malachi: 4:1-“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.â€Â
4:2-“But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3-“And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.â€Â
4:5-“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of (the great and dreadful day of the Lord.)â€Â
4:6-“And he shall turn the heart of the father to the children, and the heart of the children to their father, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.â€Â

After these many prophesy we still find where many of our pastors, and also many of our teachers are still trying to take a word, in which cannot be founded neither in the New – nor the Old Testament. They are trying to squeeze this word in between the great day of the Lord, and the dreadful day of the Lord, which they are now calling it the day of Rapture, which is unknown to any and all the prophecies written within the word of God.
They gladly rejoice and Glorify as they leave out the two most dreaded used words in the whole Bible, which are Wrath and Tribulations, and replace them with they’re most beloved word, (Rapture.) This is also from knowing that our sins are many, and after God has given us the church domain over all things, and are now having to face the corruption that our country has now become.

Thanks and God Bless You
Herbert

 

[irishrain]

After these many prophesy we still find where many of our pastors, and also many of our teachers are still trying to take a word, in which cannot be founded neither in the New – nor the Old Testament.

Very true, guess they haven't read about Margaret Macdonald in the year 1830. Before that rapture wasn't taught!

Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. kjv

No more covering up the truth with kerchiefs

Eze 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Fly
Lexicon Results for parach (Strong's 06524)
Hebrew for 06524

Pronunciation Guide
parach {paw-rakh'}

TWOT Reference Root Word
TWOT - 1813,1814,1815 a primitive root

1) to bud, sprout, shoot, bloom

a) (Qal) to bud, sprout, send out shoots, blossom

b) (Hiphil)

1) to cause to bud or sprout

2) to show buds or sprouts

2) (Qal) to break out (of leprosy)

3) (Qal) to fly

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to STAND against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Against the supernatural Satan and his falliin angels, their lies and deception Matt 24:4-5, 11, Mark 13:5-6,Luke 21:8

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 STAND and therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Better have Christ over your head 1 Cor 11:3 why 1 Cor 11:10 the fallen angels are coming back! Rev 12:9

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

We STAND against Satan and his evil system, not FLY.

 

[Gcront]

When we were talking about the Rapture not being in the Bible, many said that the word Trinity was not in the Bible also, but yet they believe in it. I believe in the Trinity also, but we also know that this same word stand for three. Then in the Godhead we find the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, which also mean three, We also find that the word Millennium is not also mention in the Bible, but yet I believe in it also for we know that it also stand for a thousand years.
But yet we find that these thousand years are only mention in the Book of Revelations, which is a book that is made up mostly of symbolizes. We know that this is a certain time limit of prophecy, which has been made up by the will of God that fits into this symbolic time limit. This is when we get into the time limit of God, then we find in the Book of Psalms. 90:5-“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday, when it is, passed, and as a watch in the night.â€Â

Then in the Book of Second Peter, 3:8-“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.â€Â
With our much high-education of today, man might be able now to figure out this complex time limit of God, which only God knows. But I’m afraid for now I will have to skip on that one, thank you and may God bless you.

Respectful Herbert

 

[BenJasher]

Thank you Irishrain, for the mention of Margaret McDonald. I had been trying to remember her name and the date of her "announcement" that God had changed His mind and re-arranged His whole plan for the earth and His eschatological timeline. She didn't say that He had done this, but for her teachings to be correct, He would have had to. Not only that, but every other teacher of the previous 1830 years would have had to not know what they were talking about.

Wavy and I and a few others have discussed this subject on several other threads.

Most people have never heard of Margaret, but they sure know what she taught.

Her teachings have produced a generation of some of the most unlearned "Christians" this age has known. But it's OK. They are going to be raptured just any minute now. They don't have to study or put forth any effort. They are going to be raptured any moment and none of this will matter anymore. God is going to take His people out of here, and let the devil have whats left.

And some of those people still look for the "apostasis" to take place so they will know to get ready.

Illogical, antithetical, and furtermore, impossible.

I stand amazed that well meaning people, sincerely wanting to follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, would not look more deeply into this.

They have a few scripture they think support their departure theory, but they ignore whole gunny-sacks full of scriptures that say otherwise. And then they call it "Bible Study".

 

[BenJasher]

Brother Herbert,

I just visited your site. I have bookmarked it so I can come back anytime I want to. And I will want to.

 

[JM]

http://christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19862

The Church is not part of OT prophecy.

 

[JM]

Very true, guess they haven't read about Margaret Macdonald in the year 1830. Before that rapture wasn't taught!

lol, standard anti dispensational crap.

What about Manuel de Lacunza? Who wrote "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" in 1790? Take a look at John N. Darby's life and his work. He was a godly man who lived like a poper, gave to the poor and befriend the lost...he didn't lie. Darby claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church, not to mention he started to teach the Rapture in 1827. Ever read Macdonald's revelation? She saw a "fiery trial which is to try us," meaning the Church. This means the Rapture timing is after the wrath of Satan.

When I was attending St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church someone mentioned an Orthodox monk that was burned around 850ad for teaching something similar to the Rapture, and if that's not enough read “Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?...For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.†(composed sometime between the fourth and sixth century AD)

Read up.

 

[BenJasher]

I have read up.

Again, I say that the Rapture Theory was never taught until the 1800's. In the other thread, I mistakenly stated that it was the 1700's. Little matter. It still wasn't taught until Darby (who was a pauper, not a poper) and McDonanld deceived the Church into believing God was going to take them out of this world and then let the devil have the leftovers.

And you are correct in your statement that there is a difference between the Church and the Children of Israel. The difference there is the same as the difference between the Bride of Christ, and the Body of Christ. The two are distinctly different.

But that still doesn't give credence to the false teaching of a rapture.

...anti-dispensational crap...

I think not.

 

[BenJasher]

When I was attending St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church someone mentioned an Orthodox monk that was burned around 850ad for teaching something similar to the Rapture, and if that's not enough read “Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?...For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.†(composed sometime between the fourth and sixth century AD)Read up.

Not meaning any disrespect to anyone who was burnt at the stake, but that just goes to document what I said about the Church Fathers not wanting to waste their time with someting so foolish as a rapture theory. They would fight and argue over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, but the idea of a rapture was too foolish for them to give serious thought to.

Think about it...

Furthermore...

For all the saints and elect of God are gathered,... lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.â€Â

I think not. Doesn't stand up to a simple comparison of the scriptures.
#1) The righteous are not the ones to be taken out of the earth. It is the wicked who will be removed. And for this I have huge gunnysacks full of supporting scripture. I do not need the words of an obscure teacher to back me up.
#2)The "confusion" will overwhelm the wicked of the earth who remain alive at the end of the age. Not the righteous.
#3)God's promises to the righteous, and to the earth as well, are ones of hope and victory, not escapist hoplelssness. The ones who need to be cowering in fear of what is to come are the wicked.

 

[wavy]

The Church is not part of OT prophecy.

Sure isn't.

Why would there be prophecy about something that is non-existent?

 

[Bick]

The "rapture"

It is true "rapture" does not have an equivalent in the Greek NT. It seems to be coined to describe what the apostle Paul says concerning the revealed secret that not all in the Church/Body of Christ will die to be resurrected and taken to heaven; but the dead in Christ will be aroused incorruptible, and we who are alive will be changed, put on immortality, and together we will meet the Lord in the air, and thus shall we be together with the Lord.
See 1 Cor.15:51-58 and 1 Thes.4:15-18.

Actually, I believe "rapture" is used by many instead of "snatched away" or "caught up", depending on your translation of 1 Thes.4:17.

As for the "church" replacing Israel because Israel rejected Jesus, there is nothing in the scriptures to validate that.

It was predicted and determined that national Israel would reject Jesus as the Messiah. Why? Because it was through His sacrifice on the cross that the sins of the world are taken away. Not just for Israel.

Again, the Church/Body of Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles, is a special
body, being called out during this administration. Paul was chosen to be the apostle and teacher to the nations, and to him were revealed a number of secrets from the mind of God.

These special revelations are given to us primarily in the prison epistles:
Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians and Philemon.

Our future is in the heavenlies, as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.
God is preparing spiritual blessings beyond anything we can imagine. We will have glorious bodies fit for the celestials, vivified by the Spirit, to witness to the principalities and powers in the celestials, the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Eph, 1,2,3.

As for the Church/Body going through the tribulation, the time of God's wrath, to await the coming of Christ in power and glory, I believe what our apostle Paul writes:

Rom.5:9 "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more will we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

I Thes.1:10 "They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead---Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

1 Thes.5:9 "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."


God bless, Bick

 

[Gcront]

To all

Christ knew that he was here for only one cause, a cause that would have to be carried out, before his churches could be started here on earth. For Christ was first sent unto his own, which were the Jews. Christ knew that from the beginning, that he would become the Lamb of God and that he would have to die on the cross, for the sins of man. Christ also knew that it was only after this, could there have been the beginning of his many churches, as God Himself would then turn unto another people.
Christ did not overlook this matter of how his churches would be carried out, for with this he knew everything from the very beginning until the end. For even then Christ knew that he would one day meet Saul on the road to the Damascus. Then after changing Saul name to Paul, Christ called upon him to fulfill this greatest of all tasks, after his death upon the cross.

If Christ should have then started this preparation, of setting up his churches, when he was living here on earth. Then the prophecy of old would not have been fulfilled or carried out, for Christ first had to come unto his own, which were the Jews. Then the Jews would have to be the first to reject Christ, by sending him to the cross.
This is when God turned unto the churches, in which he turned unto another people. If Christ should had turned unto the churches while he was here on earth before his death, then the will of God would not have been carried out.

If Christ should had turned unto the churches first, then the Jews would have had a very good reason then for rejecting him, for Christ would have then been the first one to have rejected them. Christ had a very hard time when he was here on earth, which mostly came from the Jews. Then just think what Christ would have had to face, if he should have turned unto the churches before their time, before it had became the will of the Father.
With Christ becoming the corner stone that the Jews rejected, the same corner stone, which would become the first stone to start our churches. The death of Christ was to become the beginning of our churches, based only upon the death of God’s one and only Son, with God turning unto another people – which were the Gentiles.

Thank you and God Bless

 

[BenJasher]

Re: The "rapture"

It is true "rapture" does not have an equivalent in the Greek NT. It seems to be coined to describe what the apostle Paul says concerning the revealed secret that not all in the Church/Body of Christ will die to be resurrected and taken to heaven; but the dead in Christ will be aroused incorruptible, and we who are alive will be changed, put on immortality, and together we will meet the Lord in the air, and thus shall we be together with the Lord.
See 1 Cor.15:51-58 and 1 Thes.4:15-18.

Brother Bick,
Most of what you said I find no argument with. Basically, I agree with it. No problem. And those parts of your statement, I didn't quote here.

But the scriptures you referenced in the above quote deal with what Paul calls in another place "the Manifestation of the Sons of God." This thought agrees nicely with what we know of as "The Book of Revelations", or "The Revelation of St. John". But neither of those names are the actual name of the book. The name of the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ".

Let's go slowly here... Let's do some harmless extrapolation for the sake of making a valid point. That word "revelation" in the Greek is "apokalupsos", and it means "unveiling, revealing, revelation, manifestation." It is the same word Paul uses in Romans 8:19. We also know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So, the point I want to make is that Paul refers to the "manifestation of the Sons (plural) of God"; where John refers to the "Manifestation of the Son (singular) of God." They are both the same thing.

You could say that John goes into quite a bit of intracate detail where the Apostle Paul does not. But that wouldn't necessarily be true. John wrote one book on the subject. Paul wrote most of the New Testament. This "manifestation" is the one of the key subjects of Paul's writings. It is the only subject of John's Revelation. It is also one of the key subjects of the entire New Testament.

It isn't hard to see that Paul saw farther into the future, and prophecied more about it than any other New Testament author.

But let's compare the "Manifestation of the Sons of God" with "The Rapture Theory" for a moment. And in all fairness, I will start with the Rapture Theory.

The Rapture Theory, simplistically stated, says that God will whisk His people off the face of the earth, and let the rest of it go to hell in a handbasket while He and His followers have a big feast in Heaven for 3 and a half years.

The Manifestation of the Sons of God, on the other hand, is a prophetic picture of a world that has already gone to hell in a handbasket. And the purpose of the revealing of the Sons is to clean up the mess, not dessert it.
Babylon, the great whore, will fall at the hands of the Sons of God. (And religious Babylon is the reason why the Church is rife with teachings like the Rapture theory) The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ (His Christ is the corporate Son, manifested) at the hands of the Manifested Sons of God.

And Paul tells us that creation stands on tiptoe, straining its neck, in anticipation of this "unveiling of the Sons of God". He also tells us that creation was subjected to vanity against its will in hope that it would someday be released from this bondage, into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.

Now then, if creation is going to be desserted and abandoned, and allowed to spiral downward into every imaginable kind of hellish circumstance, would it be anticipating this? No. It would be dreading it. Think for a second. Not only that, but a downward spiral into oblivion does not sound very much like being released into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.

My point of all this is: That The Rapture Theory, when carefully considered, comparing scripture with scripture, does not hold water. There isn't enough evidence in the scriptures of a "rapture" for the idea to stand up in court. It would be declared "Nol Pros" by the Judge. In other words, there wouldn't be enough evidence to proceed with a case, and dismissed out of hand.

There very much is the concept of a "removal" of a certain class of people from the earth throughout the scriptures. But it isn't a rapture, and it doesn't pertain to the righteous.

 

[Gcront]

Dear Rick

At Christ's Second Coming we the Christians will be change and caught up to meet Christ, leaving the unsaved to face the wrath of God's fire and brimstone, being the judgment of God.

Thanks and God bless you
Herbert

 

[Bick]

"The Rapture"

Yes, these can be busy times, brother Ben.

In studying to show ourselves, unashamed workman, rightly dividing the word of truth, it is certainly true we must consider all the Scriptures.

And, as believers who love the Lord, we can disagree agreeably.

Taking one point at a time. You said:

'But the scriptures you referenced in the above quote deal with what Paul calls in another place "the Manifestation of the Sons of God." This thought agrees nicely with what we know of as "The Book of Revelations", or "The Revelation of St. John". But neither of those names are the actual name of the book. The name of the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" '.

I agree, a more correct title would be "The unveiling of Jesus Christ"

Next quote:
'Let's go slowly here... Let's do some harmless extrapolation for the sake of making a valid point. That word "revelation" in the Greek is "apokalupsos", and it means "unveiling, revealing, revelation, manifestation." It is the same word Paul uses in Romans 8:19. We also know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So, the point I want to make is that Paul refers to the "manifestation of the Sons (plural) of God"; where John refers to the "Manifestation of the Son (singular) of God." They are both the same thing.'

I disagree. I read and reread this whole chapter and I do not believe that the manifestation (revealing) of the sons of God is at the same time, is the same thing, as the unveiling of Jesus Christ.

For clarification: are you saying "the manifestation of the sons of God" is all part of Revelation, the book?

Next quote:
'You could say that John goes into quite a bit of intricate detail where the Apostle Paul does not. But that wouldn't necessarily be true. John wrote one book on the subject. Paul wrote most of the New Testament. This "manifestation" is the one of the key subjects of Paul's writings. It is the only subject of John's Revelation. It is also one of the key subjects of the entire New Testament.'

Yes, 'to manifest', 'manifestation', 'reveal', etc., are key subjects and certainly must be studied in the total context in each case.

For instance, from Young's Concordance, APOKALUPSIS is translated in the AV six different ways: appearing 1; coming 1; manifestation 1; revelation 12; be revealed 2; & to lighten 1.

THANEROO, to make or be manifest, is another NT Greek word.

Next quote:
'It isn't hard to see that Paul saw farther into the future, and prophecied more about it than any other New Testament author.'

'But let's compare the "Manifestation of the Sons of God" with "The Rapture Theory" for a moment. And in all fairness, I will start with the Rapture Theory.'

'The Rapture Theory, simplistically stated, says that God will whisk His people off the face of the earth, and let the rest of it go to hell in a handbasket while He and His followers have a big feast in Heaven for 3 and a half years.'

Comments: first paragraph: Yes and no. Yes, I believe God revealed secrets to Paul concerning the ages (eons), and God's plan or purpose for them. While in his vision, John saw the new heavens and earth, and described many things relating to the new earth. Paul, writes of God's plans after the new earth eon is fulfilled and God will be All in all. As for Paul prophecying more about the future than John, that doesn't seem possible. IMO, using a literal NT as possible, such as Young's or Rotherham's, I find that all of the book of Revelation is future.

Second and third paragraphs: No, your idea of "the rapture" is not scriptural. Simply stated, the believers of today are part of the Church/Body of Christ. An ecclesia foreknown, predestined, called, justified, sanctified, but not yet glorified. While it was written in the OT that the gentiles would be blessed through Christ, we are a special body, a new creation made up of believing Jews and Gentiles, chosen to be Christ's body to witness here on earth, and later in the heavenlies in our resurrected bodies. There, to witness to principalities, powers and other evil spirit beings, the awesome riches of God's grace expressed in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Read Eph.1,2and3, specifically: 1:3-13; 2:6-10, 14-22; 3:1-6, 8-12;

But what about those left on earth? With the Church/Body gone, I believe Israel's clock will start again. While they have been scattered to the four winds, God tells us through His OT prophets that He will gather them from the four corners of the earth, and will put His law in their minds and write them on their hearts, and He will be their God. See Jer.31:31-38, part of which is quoted in Heb.8:8-13 and 10:16-18.

When does this occur? I believe it is after the 7 years tribulation, known as Daniel's 70th week; when the Lord Jesus comes in all His glory, to destroy the army gathered at Armageddon, and to establish His kingdom.

All for now, Bick

 

[BenJasher]

Brother Bick,

(I hope I am not referring to you in the wrong gender here. If so, I am sorry)

I appreciate the spirit of your words. You seem to be sincerely attempting to approach and share the truth, without being beligerant or self-righteous about it. Like I said, I appreciate that.

Many people get right down unfriendly when they realize what I am saying, and conclude I intend to take their rapture away from them. Which, in my opinion, wouldn't be a bad thing.

For me personally, if you are sincerely following the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, it isn't necessary for you and me to agree doctrinally.

But let me address what was said about Paul seeing farther and prophecying more than John. Nearly everything that John prophecied in Revelations, Paul already said or at least alluded to. Let me give you an example.

In 1Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of something happening "at the last trump". We could argue about where he got this concept, but the fact remains that 30+ years later, an angel reveals this same thing to John in more detail. But, judging the words Paul used, you get the notion he spoke about the last trump almost matter of factly. Like there was much more about it that he could have said, but didn't. Or maybe while he was in Corinth, he had spoken in great detail to the people, and was just not going into all that much detail again. Paul very clearly was a prophet. Perhaps, saying that Paul prophecied more isn't entirely correct. But he was intimately knowledgeable of things that John had to have revealed to him 30 years afterwards.

Maybe you won't be able to accept that line of thought. But it isn't hard for me. And in my mind, it exemplifies the seamless congruity of the scriptures.

I disagree. I read and reread this whole chapter and I do not believe that the manifestation (revealing) of the sons of God is at the same time, is the same thing, as the unveiling of Jesus Christ.

For clarification: are you saying "the manifestation of the sons of God" is all part of Revelation, the book?

Ok. About the unveiling of the Son(s) of God. If I understand your question properly; you understand "The revelation of Jesus Christ" (singular, not the book) as the Second Coming, and the manifestation of the Sons (plural) of God as something else.

Actually, unless I am completely wrong, they aren't. They are one and the same thing. The Book of Revelations goes into intricate detail where Paul spoke matter of factly. But both authors speak of the same thing.

 

[Gcront]

To my two brothers Brick and Ben

We have many that believe, which God is going to gather the Jewish people back into their homeland of Israel, with all of God’s many great promises of hope. How can our great Godhead once again turn back unto a people that he never once turn against? For it were the Jewish people that turned against their God, by turning against God’s only source of Salvation coming before the son of man, which was Christ. We find Paul saying in the Book of Romans; 11: 1-“I say then, Have God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.â€Â
11:2-“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,â€Â

11:3-“Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and I left alone, and they seek my life.â€Â
11:4-“But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.â€Â
11:5-“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant accord to the election of grace.â€Â
11:6-“And if by grace, then is it no more works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.â€Â
11:7-“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he skeet for; but the election obtained it, and the rest were blinded.â€Â
11:8-“(According as it is written, God hat given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.â€Â

11:9-“And David satin, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:â€Â
11:10-“Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back always.â€Â
11:11-“I say then, Have they slumbled that they shall fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.â€Â
11:12-“Now if the fall of thm be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?â€Â

Thank you and may God bless
Herbert

 

[BenJasher]

Brother Herbert,

You quit quoting scripture too soon. In verse 15 of Romans 11, it says: "For if their rejection (Greek apobole= casting away) be the reconciliation (actually conciliation) of the world, what will their acceptance (Greek prosiempis= toward getting, taking back) be but life from the dead?

Obviously there has been a rejection, or a casting away, otherwise Paul would have been talking nonsense here. But where did it take place, and when? Is it recorded in the scriptures?

Jesus, as well as Paul, and I think it was Daniel in the OT referred to Jerusalem being given over to the Gentiles to be trodden under foot til the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

God has cast away Israel, as far as dealing with them as a peculiar covenant people. Today, it profiteth not to be a member of the Israelite people. (Notice I didn't use the word Jew.) Jew or Greek, Gentile or Scythian, it matters not. God is not dealing with the earth through the nation of Israel. Jerusalem has been given over to the Gentiles to be trodden under foot. And this will be the situation that prevails til the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

When the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, watch out world! The rejection of Israel will be replaced with acceptance and restoration. If their rejection was glorious for the world, their acceptance will be beyond words or measure.
"Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both old men and young men together. And I will turn their mourning into joy, and I will comfort them..." A promise to Israel at that time.

What that is not saying is that God has thrown away Israel like last weeks trash, or that He has no plans to ever deal with them again. He made covenant promises to His friend Abraham that He would have to break to do that. And I am convinced that we can trust Him to keep His promises, no matter who He makes them to.

 

[SputnikBoy]

So, is the unscriptural term 'the rapture' no more than the event that will take place at the coming of Christ when the graves are opened?

 

[Gcront]

My Brother Ben

You said that I quit quoting scripture too soon, so I will add a few more verses in the Book of Romans 11:25-“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.â€Â
11:26-“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:â€Â
11:27-“For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.â€Â

This is saying that the Jews being Israel shall all be saved, this is like saying that the Gentiles being the churches shall all be saved. God forbid, for we know that Jews and Gentile a like can only be saved through Jesus Christ. This means that many of the Jews in the last generation before Christ’s return will turn to Christ for Salvation before that dreadful day.

Thank you and God Bless you
Herbert