Bible Study-Two (The Rapture)

[BenJasher]

Henry,

So I take it we are in agreement then. Are we not? I wasn't trying to be disrespectful when I said all that in my last post.

Sputnik Boy:

So, is the unscriptural term 'the rapture' no more than the event that will take place at the coming of Christ when the graves are opened?

I don't know if you want my answer to that question, really. But you did ask, so I will answer. (At least I think you were addressing your question to me.) The Manifestation of the Son(s) of God is the subject matter when the Second Coming is spoken about. In other words, the Second Coming (which is scriptural) and the Manifestation of the Son(s) of God (again, scriptural) are one and the same thing.

People have taken scriptures that have to do with the separation of the wheat and the tares to take place at the end of this age, mixed them with scrtiptures having to do with the Second Coming and other thoughts, and created a "mixture doctrine" which has no real support in scripture. For them to swallow the idea of a rapture, they have to turn a blind eye to whole volumes of scripture that plainly and easily do away with any notion of a rapture. What was the person's name in the book of Jeremiah who took a penknife and cut out parts of Jeremiah's prophecies that he didn't like? They end up being that person, ignoring and refusing to consider all those other scriptures.

And when I say that, I mean no disrespect to anyone who holds to the idea of a rapture. Just remember, it isn't known as "The Rapture Doctrine". It is properly known as "The Rapture Theory". People who believe in it just simply call it "The Rapture". But it is properly recognized as a theory, and belongs in the same category as evolution. When it is taught, it should be acknowledged that it is nothing more than a theory with no real basis in fact. But then, they say the same thing about the resurrection of Jesus. So, there ya go. :smt102

 

[Bick]

The rapture

Hi guys. There is a lot of verbage to read through. And after again reading the different posts, I'm convinced at this time, that the real bone of contention is:

The application of all the verses regarding the coming again of Christ Jesus in power and great glory, to establish His messianic kingdom on earth;
versus
The catching away of the Church/Body of Christ, after receiving spiritual bodies, to secretly meet the Lord in the air, and, as set forth in Ephesians, to be taken to the heavenlies to experience the "spiritual blessings" prepared by God.

Another area of contention, is the seeming blending of the words of Jesus during His earthly ministry, with the words of Paul.

Jesus came unto his own. He came as a servant, proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, the hope of Israel. He had nothing to do with the Gentiles, except on two occasions: the Centurion whose servant was deathly ill, and was healed (Matt.8:5-13); and the woman of Canaan whose daughter was troubled by a demon (Matt.15:21-28), who was healed because of the mother's faith. Yet Jesus told her he came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I'm sure this is nothing new, but I feel the need to reiterate it: The gospel that Paul preached was a secret among many secrets revealed to Paul. As believers we have been justified, made new creations, have Christ through the Spirit indwelling us, are heirs of God and Joint-heirs with Christ, will be witnessing to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies, the awesome grace of God in His kindness to us through Christ Jesus.

None of this is written before in the Hebrew Scriptures.

If there is disagreement over the above, then little more can be said.

God bless, Arnold Bickham

 

[Gcront]

To all

I was about to say that I'm not much of a Hebrew student, I'm afraid I will have to say that I'm no Hebrew student at all, my only resourace is the King James Version through the Holy Spirit.

Thank everyone and may God Bless
Herbert

 

[BenJasher]

As I said, I don't feel it is necessary for us to agree doctrinally if we are sincerely following the Lamb. And I am convinced that you are. I also appreciate the way you present your self with out being self righteous or beligerant about it.

Other than that, little more needs to be said. I bid you peace.

 

[Gcront]

To each and everyone

There have been many conflicting ideas on who God is, this is when it comes to my Moslem friends and also many of my Christians friends, and I like to try to explain the Supreme and Superiority of this my one and only God Jehovah. There was first God the Father in which there were no beginning, now we come to a part that the Moslem don’t like, but it is in my Bible and I cannot leave it out.
Then God the Father begot another God in whom was his Son, then these two Superior Spirits of these two great God’s they combined their two Spirits together within one Supreme Spirits. This is the Holiness of our one and only Godhead, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Thank you and God Bless
Herbert

 

[Bick]

The rapture

Ben, you say "manifestation of the sons of God" is the same as "the manifestation (or unveiling) of Jesus Christ. In the name of good grammar, how can you equate "sons" plural, with "Jesus Christ (son of God)', singular?

Or, are you saying they occur at the same event, the Second Coming?

Just for speculation, let's say the two unveilings are at the Second Coming. Then, all those things described by Paul in Rom. 8 will then take place.
What must happen? Right now we know the creation is subject to decay, corruption. Things wear out, rust, wither and die. The stars and galaxies are slowing down. The sun is slowly dying, etc.

I see the KJV uses 'creature', while other versions use 'creation'. In the Greek it is 'ktisis', meaning 'A making, thing made'.

The Concordant Version reads thus: Rom.8:19 ff "For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

To be free from the bondage of corruption would require a New heavens and a New earth. But we know from Rev. 20 that event will occur only after the 'millennium' and the time of judging at the Great White Throne.

Therefore, I believe the unveiling of the "sons of God" will be just before the New Creation.

All for now. Bick

 

[BenJasher]

Re: The rapture

Ben, you say "manifestation of the sons of God" is the same as "the manifestation (or unveiling) of Jesus Christ. In the name of good grammar, how can you equate "sons" plural, with "Jesus Christ (son of God)', singular?

For the simple fact that the scriptures state that they are one and the same, and grammar has little to do with it. What some well meaning christians can't get into their minds is that, at the time frame referred to here, we believers are the only Jesus the world will see.
We are to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so completely that we become Him. I could go on all night about this, but I will cut it short by saying that the unveiling of the Sons of God is a corporate occurence. It is the bringing forth of the "One like a Son of Man into the presence of the Ancient of Days" spoken of in the 7th chapter of Daniel. "One like a Son of Man" is not Jesus Himself, but He is someone very closely resembling Him. He is that corporate man who is ready, with his wedding garments on and fresh oil in his lamp.
Let their be no confusion about it.

Or, are you saying they occur at the same event, the Second Coming?

see above

I see the KJV uses 'creature', while other versions use 'creation'. In the Greek it is 'ktisis', meaning 'A making, thing made'.

Actually, ktisis has a much deeper meaning than "a thing made". This is one of the few words that, when it was really important for them to do so, our translators got it right. Look in Revelations 5:13. You will see ktsis there where it says "Every created thing" That is exactly what it means. Every created thing. The birds and the bees, the leaves on the trees; all the way down to the tiniest sub-atomic particle, including the sub-atomic particles on the farthest star. And everything in between. That is what "Ktsis"means. Nothing is left out.
And I can't apologize to you if that is a bit more than what you have been taught that it means. Because that is exactly what it means.

The Concordant Version reads thus: Rom.8:19 ff "For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

It is unfortunate that the Concordant uses the word "premonition" here. It gives the idea of a pre-knowing, or precognition. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it completely sidesteps what the Greek word "apokarodokia" means. It means to "stand on tiptoe, craning the neck in anticipation". The Concordant is a very good students translation. But they missed it on this word when they went with "premonition."

To be free from the bondage of corruption would require a New heavens and a New earth.

No. Not necessarily. It will take the appearance of the One like the Son of Man, coming in power, and lifting the curse of bondage from off the neck of creation, and setting it free into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God. This is what is spoken of when it says "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ."
Lemme ask you a question: If our Lord had a "Christ", who would it be, if not for this corporate manchild?

But we know from Rev. 20 that event will occur only after the 'millennium' and the time of judging at the Great White Throne.

Are you sure of that?

Therefore, I believe the unveiling of the "sons of God" will be just before the New Creation.

All for now. Bick

Like I said before, I respect your viewpoints, and the way you present yourself. So, don't let me influence you any. I am just throwing my nickel in the hat.

 

[Bick]

First, answering Herbert. Your quote:

There have been many conflicting ideas on who God is, this is when it comes to my Moslem friends and also many of my Christians friends, and I like to try to explain the Supreme and Superiority of this my one and only God Jehovah. There was first God the Father in which there were no beginning, now we come to a part that the Moslem don’t like, but it is in my Bible and I cannot leave it out.
Then God the Father begot another God in whom was his Son, then these two Superior Spirits of these two great God’s they combined their two Spirits together within one Supreme Spirits. This is the Holiness of our one and only Godhead, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

My first word of advice is, don't concern yourself with "ideas of God" from other false religions. The truth concerning God, His character, His attributes, His involvement in History, His plan for the redemption of mankind, etc, is in His revealed word, the Scriptures. I say "Scriptures" because so many translations can be misleading. But, using more literal translations, Bible dictionaries, concordances, and other good references. these truths can be discovered.

Looking at your second paragraph: Where do you find such a story in the Bible? Herbert, are you reading from a devised version?

How about some quotes from the bible?

Bick

 

[Gcront]

Thank you Bick

We know that our God said that his Word shall go into all Nations and all Tongues, this also meant the Moslem Nations. Then the other question, we read in the Bible about the Spirit coming from the Father, and the Spirit coming from the Son, but we never once heard of the Spirit coming from the Holy Spirit going back to the Father or the Son. I know you ask for scripture, I also like to hear your scripture saying I’m wrong.

Respect yours and God Bless
Herbert

 

[Gcront]

Bick I thought that I give you a little more to thank about

My greatest schoolmaster was then to become the Holy Spirit, as he taught me through the likes and dislikes of Christ, as we went through the seven churches of Revelations. There are many times that we do not realize the path that Christ has laid out before us, but we can always count on the Godhead, knowing that he will see us through. We are thankful for this love which, we find coming through the Spirit of our Godhead, A love coming through the Holy Spirit, being the Holiness of the Father and the Son.
This Holy Spirit is the tool or instrument within the Godhead, for within this Holy Spirit we find the Spirit of God the Father. Then also within this Holy Spirit we find our God the Son, for within these two we find the Holy Ghost. Through the Bible we have only found the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of the Son. Then within the Holy Ghost our Godhead the Trinity, which is one, with this being the Spirit in the Father and Son is one.

We have many Christians now believing in this, which was a foundation of a new spirit. This is a spirit that was only born here only a few years ago within our own country in the deep south, back during the days of slavery within the eighteen hundreds, this was then only a spirit to lift up this their own spirit from this their own depression of slavery.
They know nothing of this Holy Spirit, the Spirit of our Godhead, which was created first within the Father and the Son. This Holy Spirit that Christ was talking about unto his disciples, a Spirit that was formed going back before the earth was created, as we find in the Book of St John. 14:16-“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;â€Â
14:17-“Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.â€Â
14:18-“I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.â€Â

Through Christ we find our own power, which has came from within the Godhead. The Spirit of our God the Father and the Spirit of our God the Son combined unto one through the Holy Spirit, as we find in the Book of Colossians. 3:1-“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.â€Â
3:2-“Set your affection on things above, not on things on earth.â€Â
3:3-“For you are dead, and your life is hid in with Christ and God.â€Â

For here we find the unforgivable sin, as we look into the Book of St. Matthew. 12:31-“Wherefore I say unto you, All manners of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto man.â€Â
12:32-“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.â€Â

We know that God the Father is a Spirit, while also God the Son is also another complete different Spirit. This was before Christ came to earth, and also once again after he returned back unto the Father, and after being glorified. With these two having different Spirits, making them two very great individuals supreme being of life existences.
For as this the Father has life in himself, so he has also given the Son to have life in himself, with these two individuals Supreme Spirits there is no greater power. Then through the Spirit of the Holy Ghost they are made one within the Godhead, as we find in the Book of St. John. 5:26-“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;â€Â
5:27-“And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.â€Â

Then the Holy Ghost appeared at Christ’s Baptism, with it being through the Spirit of God. Then also in a few other places, as we find in the Book of St. John. 7:37-“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.â€Â
7:38-“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.â€Â
7:39-“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)â€Â
Then if the Godhead were made up of three different individual beings, then there would not have been any trouble for the three to appear here on earth at the same time. The same as the Spirit of the Father appearing here on earth, many times when Christ was here on the earth.

Then in the sixteenth chapter of St John we find, which Christ had to go back to the Father and be glorified, before the Holy Spirit could come.
St. John 16:7-“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; But if I depart, I will send him unto you.â€Â
16:8-“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:’
16:9-“Of sin, because they believe not on me;ìÂ
16:10-“Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;â€Â
16:11-“Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judge.â€Â

Thank you and God Bless
Herbert

 

[Bick]

The rapture

Brother Herbert:
The Godhead: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are certainly set forth in the bible.

Yes, the KJV is a venerable, traditional bible, but to hold to it literally can lead to confusion and misunderstanding. We know that the Spirt of God inspired all the writers, and the Spirit is in the Word, as Paul tells us in 2 Tim. 3:16. The truth of God's plans are only to be understood, in my opinion, by comparing scripture with scripture, as we are encouraged to do in 2 Tim.2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." KJV.

A word study of "spirit' can be very helpful. "Spirit" is used in a number of ways, and the one root idea running through all the passages is INVISIBLE FORCE, ENERGY, POWER.

In John 4:24 Jesus said literally "God Spirit: and they that worship must worship in spirit and truth." God is not "a" spirit. He is Spirit, the source of energy, power, force, etc.

Yes, in the NT, as believers we are told that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit; and that Christ is in us through His spirit; and that the Spirit of God lives within us. IMO, the Holy Spirit, which was sent from God, is His special spirit, set apart to do all God the Father wants to be done. And that 'the spirit of Christ' is the same thing.

Herbert, in your second Paragraph you changed from 'Holy Spirit' to 'Holy Ghost', as if they are different. 'Ghost' is just the old English word for
'spirit'. They are one and the same.

John 14:16-18 certainly don't say or imply that the Holy Spirit was formed before the creation of the earth. Don't add something to the bible that isn't there.

The KJV is misleading concerning the so-called "unforgivable sin". In Matt.12:32 it says, "...but , whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." My friend, are you aware of the difference between 'age' and 'world'? Look in a concordance and you will find that 'world' here is translated from the word in Greek, 'aion', which means simply, an unknown period of time. But not unending.

Christ died for the sins of the world. Someone blaspheming the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in 'this age', the one at the time of Christ, and now, nor in the coming one.

God bless, Bick

 

[Bick]

The rapture

Brother Herbert

More coming

 

[Terral]

Paul Is Writing About Things "Hidden In God"

Hi Gcront:

Thank you for starting this thread. I have read the two pages on this thread and have found nobody hitting near the mark on this topic. Please allow me to address one of the errant statements to then explain what ‘The Rapture’ really means for the members of the “body of Christ†in the world today. You wrote,

Gcront >> “The Rapture - I wish that I could write and find more encouragement about this word Rapture, for it is a word with a very-very sweet sound to us all, but studying all the old time Bible Scholars, there is nothing there. You can study the whole Bible, and there is nothing there.â€Â

The fact nobody has hit upon yet is that this term “Rapture†is derived from the Greek term “Harpazo†(#726) used in 1Thessalonians 4:17 and translated “shall be caught up.†This term meaning “to seize, carry off by force†or “snatch away†( http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -9656.html ) is used thirteen (13) times in the New Testament in places like in Acts 8:39 where Philip was “caught away†so that the eunuch “saw him no more.†Paul uses this term to explain how he was “caught up†to the third heaven in 2Corinthians 12:2 also like John describes “her Child†was “caught up†unto God and to His Throne in Revelation 12:5. Our key for understanding is that Paul is describing our mystery church being “caught up†(1Thessalonians 4:17) when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†(1Thessalonians 5:1-2) is “at hand.†2Thessalonians 2:2. That marks the time that the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†BEGINS. Christ is describing the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3+) events related to the END of the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†in Matthew 24, which take place 1000 Years LATER. A diagram showing these two separate events looks like this:

Find “Today†directly in the center of the Bible Timeline and note the “1000 Year Day of the Lord†that follows shaded in blue. You and I are ‘caught up’ to be with the Lord to BEGIN this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord,†and we return with Him “in glory†(Colossians 3:4) to END the same 1000 Years Day. Christ’s Matthew 24 events all take place just prior to His ‘Prophetic’ (seen by the Prophets) coming some 1000 Years, AFTER He gathered us to start the same period that Satan is bound in the pit for the same “thousand years†(Revelation 20:2-7). The trumpets of 1Corinthians 15:52 and 1Thessalonians 4:16 are heard ‘behind' John standing inside the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) in Revelation 1:10, which STARTS the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†The common mistake of Bible commentators of our day is the mix the events of ‘Prophecy’ with those Paul describes as the ‘revelation of the Mystery’ (Romans 16:25). Another diagram showing these events looks like this:

Note carefully that the Old Testament Prophets can see directly into the “Prophecy Fulfilled†blue (water) portion of Scripture and right into the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†However, their view passes right over the top of everything related to “The Mystery†(Ephesians 3:3) from the Pauline Epistles. Many of the writers on this thread can see that our mystery church and mystery translation (1Corinthians 15:51-53) are indeed NOT seen by the OT Prophets, but this means we must SEPARATE (rightly divide = 2Timothy 2:15) the events of Paul from those of Christ in Matthew 24:3-31. Again, Paul is describing the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†BEGINNING (“Body Rapture†in my diagram), while Christ is describing ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3) events taking place some 1000 Years LATER. This interpretation is supported by the fact that the Temple must be restored first, before the antichrist can enter the “holy place†(Matthew 24:15).

Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ (1Thessalonians 5:1-2) with the restoration of the ‘kingdom to Israel’ in Acts 1:6-7. Elijah MUST come first (Matthew 17:10) and restore “all things†(Matthew 17:11), which includes the same Temple (Ezekiel 40+) and Kingdom (Ezekiel 47 + Ezekiel 48) that the antichrist comes to make desolate with his “abomination of desolation.†Daniel 12:11-13, Matthew 24:15. Therefore, this 1000 Years Day of the Lord will see all of Old Testament Prophecy fulfilled (Acts 3:21) by the prophet of Acts 3:22-26 (Elijah = Matthew 17:10-11), so that Christ can come and save “The Elect†(Matthew 24:31) at the very ‘end of the age.’ The ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) kingdom ‘bride’ is gathered to Christ throughout this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†by “enduring to the end†(Matthew 24:13) of their lives suffering under the Antichrist. But, our ‘mystery’ (1Corinthians 15:51-53) gathering to Christ took place 1000 Years EARLI, when that 1000 Years Day BEGAN. Therefore, all three of the pre, mid and post Tribulation Rapture theories are ‘dead wrong,’ because they connect our mystery gathering to the ‘end of the age,’ instead of when that 1000 Years Day of the Lord is “at hand†(2Thessalonians 2:2), just like Paul teaches the Thessalonians.

While this interpretation appears off at the start, you will find that this is the only interpretation that says exactly what God is saying without creating a single contradiction. If somebody sees one, then please “quote me >>†and point out the error using Scripture.

Thank you again for starting this thread. God bless you,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Vic C.]

Thank you Terral, for getting this thread back on topic.

The fact nobody has hit upon yet is that this term “Rapture†is derived from the Greek term “Harpazo†...

I have touched on this more times in the End Times Forum than I care to count, but... the word 'rapture' as actually derived from the word raeptius or rapio, found the the Latin Vulgate. Sure, Jerome did translate harpazo into it's Latin equivilent, that I agree with.

I see in many places wher you associate the Day of the Lord to be 1,000 years in length. That confuses me. Could abd would you explain how you come to that conclusion? Thanks in advance.

 

[Terral]

The Thousand Years Day Of the Lord

Hi Vic:

Thank you for asking for clarifying statements. I apologize for not having a canned short answer.

Vic >> I see in many places where you associate the Day of the Lord to be 1,000 years in length. That confuses me. Could you explain how you come to that conclusion? Thanks in advance.

First of all, many fail to realize that the Biblical phrase “a thousand years†is used only by Peter and John in our New Testament in 2 Peter 3:8 once, and in each verse between Revelation 20:2 and 7. My understanding is that this phrase is Scripture’s way of saying “so long as it takes†for the “times and epochs†of Acts 1:7 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1. If we are going to reconcile every word from God on this topic, then we must actually begin the “Day of the Lord†with the appearance of John the Baptist back in Mark 1. Peter is prophesying concerning the “Day of the Lord†in Acts 2:17-21 (20), concerning the first half of Joel’s prophecy from Joel 2:28-32. The key for understanding is that the Prophetic “Day of the Lord†was placed in abeyance with Israel’s rejection of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, 9:35, etc.). While Israel did indeed reject God’s purpose for the nation, individuals were called and chosen to obtain (Romans 11:7) the kingdom of God heralded by John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve beginning at Pentecost. However, the kingdom ‘bride’ is gathered in ‘early and late rains’ (James 5:7) fashion and this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) represents the mystery time dividing those two times of Prophecy.

Everything in red is taking place today, with the OT being the golden witness of Spirit (on left) and the Kingdom NT having application to the Kingdom Dispensation in blue to our right. Therefore, this current mystery time is parenthetical to the “Day of the Lord†itself that started 2000 years ago but was ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) and will continue again with the rapture of our mystery church (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is why Paul says our mystery church is gathered, when the “Day of the Lord†is ‘at hand’ (2 Thessalonians 2:2), even though Peter could prophesy about that day like it was taking place in Acts 2. Peter did not foresee that Israel would reject the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ which still must go to the ‘whole world’ (Matthew 24:14), before the antichrist can stand in the restored “Holy Place†of the Temple. Therefore, if you are following along, I place the 1000 year duration upon the “day of the Lord†for these reasons:

1. Peter’s ‘Day of the Lord’ (2 Peter 3:10) statement is made in direct context to his ‘day as a thousand years’ statement is made in 2 Peter 3:8.

2. Paul says that these Thessalonians had ‘no need of anything to be written to you’ concerning the ‘times and epochs.’ 1 Thessalonians 5:1. The reason is that our mystery church is ‘caught up’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the ‘day of the Lord’ (of Christ) is ‘at hand.’ 2 Thessalonians 2:2. (Rapture Body in diagram with First Veil). Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to the same time that the Father as fixed by His own authority in Acts 1:6-7. That tells you that God is restoring the ‘kingdom to Israel’ during this same ‘times and epochs’ that Paul has no need to write us about. Why? Because we are taken when that 1000 Year period BEGINS and we will see all of these things from heaven.

3. God sent John the Baptist 2000 years ago (John 1:6) and Christ tells us that he is Elijah “who is to come†(Matthew 11:14) and verifies that in Matthew 17:10-13. When we connect Christ’s restoration of the kingdom of these times and epochs (Acts 1:6-7) to the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:22-26, then the fact becomes clear that this is the same prophet Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11). That restoration process includes the fulfillment of everything in Ezekiel 40-48 including the Temple and the Kingdom with the Promised Land (Genesis 15:18) divided up, according to Ezekiel 47-48. That explains how the Temple is standing for the antichrist to set up his “abomination of desolation†(Matthew 24:15), which is impossible today with no Temple. While this reason only explains the need for a ‘duration,’ John fills in the timeframe in Revelation 20 where Satan is chained during this same 1000 Year period.

4. Peter’s ‘Day of the Lord’ (Acts 2:20) prophesies appear in two separate parts and the first must be complete for the last part to even begin. Scripture says,

“And it shall be in the LAST DAYS,' God says, 'That I will pour forth My Spirit upon ALL MANKIND; and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my bondslaves , both men and women, I will in those days pour forth my of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy.†Acts 2:17-18.

Peter was using Joel 2:28-29 here to show that God’s Spirit was indeed being poured out on the Day of Pentecost, but that falling of the Holy Spirit upon such a small group in no way included “all mankind.†Christ’s prophecy that the gospel of the kingdom MUST go to the whole world (Matthew 24:14) is the restrainer forbidding this second part from even beginning:

“And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood (Matthew 24:29), and before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.†Acts 2:19-21.

The Holy Spirit is passed from disciple to disciple through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, 19:6) for the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ This aspect of God’s Word is one that escapes the notice of far too many, which causes them to misinterpret the truth in the adjacent passages. You and I do not even preach the ‘gospel of the kingdom today, as we preach Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message. I explain the differences here ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ). That gospel of the kingdom must go to the whole world some 1000 years in the future and after the earth has lived in relative peace and the current population has been enlarging over that same period. Missionaries are still taking Paul’s gospel to natives around the world after 2000 years and one can easily imagine men taking at least half that time to carry the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ to everyone on earth in that day.

5. An easy extrapolation is derived from allotting the same 1000 Years to Elijah’s restoration of the Kingdom to Israel that Satan spends in the pit (Revelation 20:2-7) to be released only after that 1000 years is complete. “

“When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison.†Revelation 20:7.

What do you suppose the Father is doing by His own authority during this same period, except restoring the kingdom to Israel just like Christ says in Acts 1:6-7? However, the great testing of that great day is when Satan is released and his Beast (Revelation 13) with the False Prophet are all cast down to walk among men. In that day the restored kingdom will become the Beast’s kingdom and he will indeed set up his ‘abomination of desolation,’ but only after the first half of Joel’s prophecy is complete. All of this leads up to the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24:21 and Daniel knows the number of days to the end (Daniel 12:11-13) from the time that ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matthew 24:15) is established.

6. Tons of Old Testament Prophecy has yet to be fulfilled and the bulk MUST be fulfilled during this evil age and before Christ returns at the ‘end of the age.’ I can see no way to cram all of those things into a period of less than 1000 years, as it is written,

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus (Mathew 24:30), the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven MUST receive** until the TIMES* (plural) of restoration of ALL THINGS (Matthew 17:10-11) about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.†Acts 3:19-21.

That word I have highlighted there is the plural form of ‘chronos’ (#5550) showing that more than a single ‘time’ of restoration must be complete, before heaven will let go of Christ’s hand**. The Greek term for ‘receive**’ there is ‘dechomai’ (#1209) meaning “take by the hand.†Therefore, Christ cannot return, until these times of restoration are complete. Many here would like to jump in and say Christ is coming to start those restoration periods, but that is quite impossible. If ‘times’ here were singular, then perhaps you could bend the Greek towards that interpretation, but with a plural number of ‘times’ ALL OF THEM must be complete, before heaven will release Christ’s hand. This follows also from Christ’s statement that Elijah MUST come first. Matthew 17:10-11, which others also like to distort by saying Elijah already came (Matthew 17:12-13). However, Christ’s preceding remarks continue to stand as BOTH Elijah AND Christ MUST return in consecutive order exactly like John the Baptist and Christ came in the Four Gospels. What did Elijah restore as John the Baptist? Nothing. Try to envision with your mortal mind what Christ means by “all things†in Matthew 17:10-11, then multiply that by 1000 or more. Elijah will return 1000 years prior to Christ’s ‘end of the age’ return (Matthew 24:30) and he will indeed restore all things FIRST, just like Christ says there and Peter says in Acts 3:21-26.

7. Paul teaches that Israel is blind to these things of the mystery today (Romans 11:25), but that after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that “all Israel will be saved.†Romans 11:25-29. James makes the same statements in Acts 15:14-18, as the people from among the Gentiles (Acts 15:14) are gathered first and then the ‘tabernacle of David’ is restored. Here again we see the ‘restored and rebuilt’ language connected with Elijah (Matthew 17:10-11) and the prophet of Acts 3:22-26. When you consider all of the evidence together, then God has a lot of restoring to do between our mystery rapture and the coming of Christ 1000 years later at the ‘end of the age.’

8. The layout of Scripture itself teaches a long restoration period following our gathering to the Lord. Even if you feel that our Bible is laid out randomly, the kingdom books (Matthew – John) are typical of the early rains kingdom bride with the late rains bride addressed in Hebrews – Revelation. Paul’s Epistles follow Acts, which is a transitional veil dividing the water witness (Kingdom Epistles) from the blood witness (Pauline Epistles), as the Outer Court (water) is separated from the Holy Place (blood) like this:

Paul’s Epistles are written ‘to’ the ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12) in the world today, while the Kingdom Books are written ‘to’ those living in the restored Kingdom of God on earth under Elijah. God gave both groups His “Perfect†(1 Corinthians 13:10) Will 2000 years ago through Paul for the body (blood) and the Kingdom Disciples for the bride (water). The Gentile dominant ‘body’ will be mature (Ephesians 4:11-13) at our Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), but God will only begin preparing the late rains kingdom bride under Elijah to start the 1000 Years Day of the Lord.

9. The 1000 Year “Lord’s Day†begins way back in Revelation 1:10, as the sound behind John is our Trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The entire 1000 years is described in Revelation 1-3, then the last tribulation and judgment part is described over and over again from Revelation 4-20 from various perspectives. That is why the Book appears to be repeating itself over and over again. My diagram of the 1000 Years for the seven church periods looks like this:

Note how the seven mysteries of Matthew 13 overlap the seven church periods for the entire 1000 Years Day of the Lord. We see sowing in the beginning periods and one large gathering “The Dragnet†at the very end. The events dealing with our mystery church appear in yellow on the left side, while the New Heavens and New Earth appear 1000 Years later on the right side.

10. The Scriptural types say that Christ’s ascension (Acts 1:9-11) is typical of our mystery translation to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to meet Him in the air. Elijah cannot receive the Holy Spirit from the ‘body of Christ,’ unless we leave in the same way. Imagine that we are standing in the position of Christ as one mystery body church (Ephesians 5:32), while addressing the entire ‘bride’ Churhat must follow: Christ told the Twelve,

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.†John 16:7.

Our mystery body of Christ church MUST go away (1 Thessalonians 4:17) for the prophetic “Day of the Lord†to begin ‘again’ like it did for the Twelve at Pentecost. The reason is that the Holy Spirit is divided among all the members of our collective bodies (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19) and He must deliver us like a sealed letter on the ‘day of redemption’ (Ephesians 4:30), which STARTS the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Only then can the Holy Spirit return in Pentecost like fashion and fall upon waiting Elijah again, just like he watched the Spirit fall on Christ in the Jordan River (Matthew 3:15-16). Elijah will then preach “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand,†just like John did back in Matthew 3:1-6. THAT will put God’s prophetic clock back in sync and the earth will be off to the races in anticipation of the ‘end of the age’ just about 1000 years LATER.

Thank you very much for asking this very important question,

In Christ Jesus awaiting the START of the “Day of the Lord,â€Â

Terral

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for responding. I get my understanding of the Day of the Lord from the OT and associate it with God's wrath. I 'see' God's wrath as beginning at Revelation 6:17. I think that is where we differ. I will read your post in detail a little later. Just got home for work am I'm pooped out! :o

Vic

 

[Georges]

My little morsel to the thread.....in green.

Thank you Terral, for getting this thread back on topic.

The fact nobody has hit upon yet is that this term “Rapture†is derived from the Greek term “Harpazo†...

I have touched on this more times in the End Times Forum than I care to count, but... the word 'rapture' as actually derived from the word raeptius or rapio, found the the Latin Vulgate. Sure, Jerome did translate harpazo into it's Latin equivilent, that I agree with.

Just a short note to add there are other places in the NT where Harpazo is used.....i.e. After Philip deals with the Eunuch, he is taken by the spirit. Harpazo is used there to describe the action of being "snatched".


I see in many places wher you associate the Day of the Lord to be 1,000 years in length. That confuses me. Could abd would you explain how you come to that conclusion? Thanks in advance.

 

[Gcront]

To all
The one thing that bother me the most is why the fifty-four great Bible scholares of the King's Version in the year of 1611 AD, while also working under the will of God, was unable to come up with these many symbols that we see flooting around today. I don't see why it took God this long, having to wait for our high-education of today to come along with these many symbols we see floating around today through our many Bible teachers of today.

Thank you very much and God Bless
Herbert

 

[Georges]

To all
The one thing that bother me the most is why the fifty-four great Bible scholares of the King's Version in the year of 1611 AD, while also working under the will of God, was unable to come up with these many symbols that we see flooting around today.

You are making 2 assumptions.....1. That there were 54 "great" Bible scholars working on the project. Who were these guys? and, 2. That they were working under the will of God? King James isn't God.

I don't see why it took God this long, having to wait for our high-education of today to come along with these many symbols we see floating around today through our many Bible teachers of today.


It didn't take God this long, it took man this long. The power of the evil internet makes information much more readily available. Scholars who up until this time didn't have the resources available, now have them. You and I now have the ability to read the Greek or Hebrew and with the lexicons available, translate for ourselves. We also have the ability to research the culture in which the Bible was originally written to better understand the frame of mind in which it was penned.

Thank you very much and God Bless
Herbert

 

[Vic C.]

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.