Bible Study-Two (The Rapture)

[Gcront]

You are making 2 assumptions.....1. That there were 54 "great" Bible scholars working on the project. Who were these guys? and, 2. That they were working under the will of God? King James isn't God.

I thank you Georges for setting me straight, but this only makes me think that much more of King James. I've never heard of another King having a fifty-four cabinet made up of nothing but fifty-four Bible scholars, no not never before.

Thank you with respect and God Bless
Herbert

 

[Gcront]

Terral

Now getting back to you Terral, going back to your last symbol of the seven churches time period for a thousand years. We find in the first chapter of Revelation the angels of these churches coming unto us from our Glorified Christ, through the eyes of the prophet John. We find Christ standing in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, which are our mother churches, the same as we find Christ saying in the Book of Revelations. 1:20-“The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest the seven churches.â€Â
Then in his right hand we find seven stars, which represent the angels and their spirits that came out of these churches. They have been gathered together, within the mighty right hand of our Glorified Christ. With Christ holding the spirits of these churches, which are the angels of these churches and not just an ordinary church. You and I look at angels different, I don’t look at them as standing out they’re with a time limit tired around their neck, a time to exist and also for a time to be exterminated.

Looking into the Book of Revelation, and unto the seven churches we find the building of this master foundation unto our churches. This was a foundation that has been formed, and set up only by our Lord Jesus Christ, for Jesus Christ who was our one and only master builder. We find Christ giving his likes and dislikes unto these churches, with him walking in and among the seven golden candlesticks. He was holding the stars, which represent the angels, within his mighty right hand.
These are the angels unto our mother churches, with these seven angels are the only ones that has now survived our mother churches. These angels represent and stand for our people of today, the children of God, the bride of Christ. This includes our churches and also our government, which governs us the children of our Godhead. This also includes the foundation that was built by our one and only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a church that is to be the will of God, and not a time for a angel to exist and a time to be their end.

Respectfully yours and God Bless
Herbert

 

[Terral]

Paul's Mystery Body Versus Peter's Kingdom Bride

Hi Herbert:

Thank you for writing. If you are not prepared to give your statements context by ‘quoting me >>’ to then show errors, then your readers are ill prepared to pass judgment on Hebert or Terral. What did I say above that you wish to challenge? You may as well start a brand new thread and start talking about ‘our mother churches’ and other non-biblical concepts. There is not much for this side to say, because there is not very much Scripture in your statements.

Herbert >> Now getting back to you Terral, going back to your last symbol of the seven churches time period for a thousand years. We find in the first chapter of Revelation the angels of these churches coming unto us from our Glorified Christ, through the eyes of the prophet John.

You seem to be talking about one of my diagrams in the posted dated (Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:58 am) and specifically to the second one showing the seven church periods within the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. In truth these are the Revelations from God THROUGH His Son THROUGH John. Revelation 1:1.

Herbert >> We find Christ standing in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, which are our mother churches, the same as we find Christ saying in the Book of Revelations. 1:20-“The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest the seven churches.â€Â

There is no Scriptural basis for you to refer to these “Lord’s Day†(Revelation 1:10 = Day of the Lord) churches as ‘our mother churches.’ Paul says that our gathering to the Lord take place with the ‘Day of the Lord’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) is AT HAND (2 Thessalonians 2:2). The trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 AND 1 Thessalonians 4:16 sounded off ‘behind’ (Revelation 1:10) John to start the “Lord’s Day.†John’s sees Christ with His brand new ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12), which includes everyone saved throughout this current ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) spanning the past 2000 Years. Those churches of Revelation 1-3 are NOT connected to ‘us’ and the “His Body†Church (Colossians 1:24) just ‘caught up’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to START the same “Day of the Lord†where John is standing. Those seven church periods span the entire 1000 Years Day of the Lord from the sowing stages at the beginning to the gathering at the very end of that same period. Our ‘body of Christ’ is in heaven for that entire period “IN†the Lamb Himself, which John describes right here in Revelation 1. You are confusing the ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) saved under the “gospel of the kingdom†(Matthew 24:14) with our mystery ‘body of Christ’ in the world today.

Herbert >> Then in his right hand we find seven stars, which represent the angels and their spirits that came out of these churches.

No sir. Everything in this broken universe has a ‘triune’ nature from the three witnesses of the Almighty (God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was = Revelation 1:8) to the there witnesses of God’s Son (Father, Son, Holy Spirit = Matthew 28:19) to the heavens, heaven and earth (this Creation) and even men (spirit, soul and body). The seven churches represent the human element on the earth, while the spirits of the angels represent their greater half to be restored to them later down the road. The summing up of all things (Ephesians 1:9-10) includes the reassembly of all the divided beings of this realm back to their original singularity expression. Your earthly half will be rejoined to your spiritual angelic half, when our mortality puts on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) as a member of the “body of Christ.†However, we are saved by obedience to Paul’s “Word of the Cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message quite different from the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) that these seven churches will hear during the 1000 years “Day of the Lord.†They must ‘endure to the end’ (Matthew 24:13) and go through the ‘marriage supper of the Lamb’ (Revelation 19:5-10) in order to obtain by works (James 2:24) what God gave us as a free gift (Romans 4:4-6, Ephesians 2:8-9).

Our mystery church will judge the world AND the angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3), because those two groups of beings represent two halves of the same hosts of God being rejoined back into their singularity expression like us. The heavenly authorities above will witness and learn about the ‘manifold wisdom’ of God (Ephesians 3:8-11) for the ages to come (Ephesians 2:7) by watching intently as God deals with ‘us’ (Body of Christ) through His grace AND the kingdom ‘bride’ (seven churches of Revelation) through their own works trying to obtain the same thing. Your theology and misinterpretations do not recognize the vast differences between the kingdom ‘bride’ (under Peter = early rains, under Elijah = late rains = James 5:7) AND the mystery ‘body’ (under Paul = dispensation of God’s grace = Ephesians 3:2).

Herbert >> They have been gathered together, within the mighty right hand of our Glorified Christ. With Christ holding the spirits of these churches, which are the angels of these churches and not just an ordinary church. You and I look at angels different, I don’t look at them as standing out they’re with a time limit tired around their neck, a time to exist and also for a time to be exterminated.

We agree that Herbert and Terral look at the doctrinal components teaching kingdom doctrine (water) AND grace doctrine (blood) very differently.

Herbert >> Looking into the Book of Revelation, and unto the seven churches we find the building of this master foundation unto our churches.

No sir. This is perhaps the most errant statement in your post. Those saved during this 2000 Year Mystery Time are already “IN†the Lamb standing before John in Revelation 1:10-18. These ‘late rains’ kingdom churches are obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) to the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3+) DURING this 1000 Years “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord). Paul had no need to write anything about these ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2), because we were taken when this “Lord’s Day†BEGAN (2 Thessalonians 2:2). You are trying to mix the ‘revelation of the mystery’ (Romans 16:25) for our ‘His body’ Church (Colossians 1:24) with the kingdom church periods of the 1000 Years Day of the Lord itself with no regard for the VAST differences.

Herbert >> This was a foundation that has been formed, and set up only by our Lord Jesus Christ, for Jesus Christ who was our one and only master builder. We find Christ giving his likes and dislikes unto these churches, with him walking in and among the seven golden candlesticks.

Yes, and your statement here is Freudian in that you realize that Christ is walking among the seven churches and their angelic counterpart from the ‘heavens’ of this creation, while FAILING to realize that everyone ‘baptized into Christ’ (Galatians 3:27) are already “IN†the Lamb. The Lamb cannot walk among the members of His Own Body, because that would mean stepping inside Himself! You do not recognize the mystery ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12) as being “IN†Him, while the ‘bride’ is seen ‘with’ Him throughout Revelation. Peter is addressing the ‘kingdom of priests’ (Exodus 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9) like John describes throughout Revelation (Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10). Paul never mentions any ‘bride’ or any ‘priest’ in any of his Gentile Epistles to the mystery ‘body of Christ.’

Herbert >> He was holding the stars, which represent the angels, within his mighty right hand. These are the angels unto our mother churches, with these seven angels are the only ones that has now survived our mother churches.

No sir. There is no mention of any ‘mother churches’ anywhere in your Bible, as those terms never appear in the same verses. NASB. That is the concoction of our own denominational church dogma that sounds very much like the “Church of Christ, Scientist.â€Â

Herbert >> These angels represent and stand for our people of today, the children of God, the bride of Christ.

Heh . . . Thank you for making this grave error in your testimony. Paul refers to our mystery church as the ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12) or ‘Christ’s body’ (1 Corinthians 12:27) or even this ‘His body’ Church (Colossians 1:24) apart from ever using the term “bride†(numphe #3565) even once in any of his Gentile Epistles. You are confusing the kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) saved by obedience to e ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12) with our mystery ‘body of Christ’ from the Pauline Epistles.

Herbert >> This includes our churches and also our government, which governs us the children of our Godhead. This also includes the foundation that was built by our one and only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a church that is to be the will of God, and not a time for a angel to exist and a time to be their end.

Please . . . Your testimony here is contrary to what ‘is’ written in God’s Word, as you are mixing the doctrinal composition of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for the “bride†AND Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message for the “body†into one pot to then take out what tastes good to Herbert. That is NOT what Paul means by ‘rightly dividing’ (2 Timothy 2:15) the word of truth.

Thank you very much for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[bjdea1]

No Rapture

This is NO rapture.

Anyone who holds on to this teaching of the rapture for much longer is going to suffer the fate of the foolish virgins who were left out of the wedding banquet. Wake up and see whats going on in the world!!!!

We have a man trying to run the whole of Europe - Javier Solana - who heads the WEU (military branch of the EU) and the EU. We have within the EU a treaty coming into effect in 2007 - its a 7 year treaty called the European Neighbourhood policy instrument. Its a peace / security / economic treaty that coincides with the European 7 year budget term. Its to be reviewed half way through 3.5 years into the treaty (2010). Israel is in this treaty and its the brainchild of the man Javier Solana who is head of the WEU and EU - the man poised to be the first super leader of all Europe. Its also worth mentioning that the WEU is a 10 nation organisation - the 10 strongest nations in Europe. There is so so much evidence around us RIGHT NOW that the tribulation is set to begin on 1st Jan 2007.

If you have any interest in your own salvation and survival I suggest you visit this website:
http://fulfilledprophecy.com

Its also interesting to note, the European Galilieo project (a satelite tracking system which will be better than the US's GPS) is set to also be completed in 2010 - all times in with prophecy concerning the introduction of the Mark of the Beast. More interesting facts are, the Anti-Christ is meant to subdue 3 leaders and rise above them. Right now we have 3 major powers in Europe, UK, France and Germany. More interesting facts, the US love Javier Solana - he was head of Nato for 4 years. Also look at the middle east right now, its boiling with spiritual activity. We can see things more clearly now, Iran obviously has an extremely hostile leader, then there's the newly elected Hamas for the Palestinians. Things are hotting up and we can see that its going to need fixing soon. Fixing by the coming Anti-Christ. The middle East will become more and more of a hot bed of trouble over the coming months and then this new Leader of Europe with solve the problem with his 7 year treaty (peace treaty). Also this 7 year treaty existed previously but was not put into action, it was on the sidelines, only now does it look like this treaty will finally be CONFIRMED by the Anti-Christ. There is much more to prove we are just about to walk into the tribulation, I can't remember it all now, visit the website.

The rapture is nothing but a carefully designed obstruction to seeing the truth. There is NO RAPTURE, its a man made idea, made for man and to please man. It is not of God and only causes the believer to stumble and miss seeing whats taking place right under his.her own nose. Forget the rapture, the bible doesn't even teach it, flee from it, I urge you, run from this teaching, its not of God.

 

[Terral]

Paul Describes Our Rapture In 1 Thesalonians 4

Hi Bjdea1:

Thank you for writing.

Bjdea1 >> This is NO rapture. Anyone who holds on to this teaching of the rapture for much longer is going to suffer the fate of the foolish virgins who were left out of the wedding banquet. Wake up and see whats going on in the world!!!!

That is funny. First of all, there is no Scripture in any of your statements. Unbelievers say there is “NO GOD†the same way and are dead wrong about that also. What does Scripture say?

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up ( harapazo #726) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.†1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Please explain what part of these verses that you find impossible to believe?

Bjdea1 >> We have a man trying to run the whole of Europe - Javier Solana - who heads the WEU (military branch of the EU) and the EU. We have within the EU a treaty coming into effect in 2007 - its a 7 year treaty called the European Neighbourhood policy instrument. Its a peace / security / economic treaty that coincides with the European 7 year budget term.

So? How does any of that prove Paul is a liar?

Bjdea1 >> Its to be reviewed half way through 3.5 years into the treaty (2010). Israel is in this treaty and its the brainchild of the man Javier Solana who is head of the WEU and EU - the man poised to be the first super leader of all Europe. Its also worth mentioning that the WEU is a 10 nation organisation - the 10 strongest nations in Europe. There is so so much evidence around us RIGHT NOW that the tribulation is set to begin on 1st Jan 2007.

Heh . . . That is IMPOSSIBLE. First of all nobody has preached the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14) for almost 2000 years. Christ says that gospel must go to the whole world, before the antichrist can come to the Holy Place (Matthew 24:15) that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST TODAY. Your cart is outrunning your horse by a very long margin indeed . . .

Bjdea1 >> If you have any interest in your own salvation and survival I suggest you visit this website:
http://fulfilledprophecy.com

Maybe you should try reconciling your own beliefs with what ‘is’ written in God’s Word. 2 Timothy 2:15.

Bjdea1 >> Its also interesting to note, the European Galilieo project (a satelite tracking system which will be better than the US's GPS) is set to also be completed in 2010 - all times in with prophecy concerning the introduction of the Mark of the Beast.

How does this make Paul a liar in 1 Thessalonians 1:13-17?

Bjdea1 >> More interesting facts are, the Anti-Christ is meant to subdue 3 leaders and rise above them. Right now we have 3 major powers in Europe, UK, France and Germany. More interesting facts, the US love Javier Solana - he was head of Nato for 4 years. Also look at the middle east right now, its boiling with spiritual activity. We can see things more clearly now, Iran obviously has an extremely hostile leader, then there's the newly elected Hamas for the Palestinians.

Iran has a long history of extremely hostile leaders. We should expect that after bombing the heck out of their Arab neighbors every now and again.

Bjdea1 >> Things are hotting up and we can see that its going to need fixing soon. Fixing by the coming Anti-Christ. The middle East will become more and more of a hot bed of trouble over the coming months and then this new Leader of Europe with solve the problem with his 7 year treaty (peace treaty). Also this 7 year treaty existed previously but was not put into action, it was on the sidelines, only now does it look like this treaty will finally be CONFIRMED by the Anti-Christ. There is much more to prove we are just about to walk into the tribulation, I can't remember it all now, visit the website.

First of all, Paul connects our ‘Rapture’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to when the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) restoration (Acts 1:6-7) period of the “Day of the Lord†COMES (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Do you see the kingdom restored to Israel all the way to the Euphrates River (Genesis 15:18), as described by Ezekiel (Ezekiel 47 + Ezekiel 48)? No. Do you see the restored Temple of Ezekiel 40 + for the Antichrist to come and set up his “abomination of desolation†(Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13)? No. You are looking at the ‘mirror’ images of things that shall take place at the very ‘end of the age,’ but we are coming to the time when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†just BEGINS.

Bjdea1 >> The rapture is nothing but a carefully designed obstruction to seeing the truth. There is NO RAPTURE, its a man made idea, made for man and to please man.

That is funny. Your words are the words of a man, and Paul’s words speak ‘the truth’ on this topic from Scripture. Please offer your reasons that we should believe you over Paul? GL.

Bjdea1 >> It is not of God and only causes the believer to stumble and miss seeing whats taking place right under his.her own nose. Forget the rapture, the bible doesn't even teach it, flee from it, I urge you, run from this teaching, its not of God.

What other Biblical teachings do you say we should ignore that are CLEARLY given in Scripture? Your presumption is that we are to toss our Bible’s into the garbage and follow after you.

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Gcront]

To all

There are many that believe that if you don’t believe in the Rapture you are not saved, then there are also many that believe that if you believe in the Rapture then you are also not saved. I would not go that far as judging neither one, for in the Book of St. John. 3:15-“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.â€Â

3:16-“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.â€Â
3:17-“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.â€Â
3:18-“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.â€Â

For we find in the Book of Acts: 4:11-“This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.â€Â
4:12-“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.â€Â

Then we also find in the Book of Romans: 10:8-“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;â€Â
10:9-“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.â€Â
10:11-“For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamedâ€Â
10:13-€œFor whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.â€Â

Thank you and God Bless
Herbert

 

[bjdea1]

Response

Fully agree with the above post

Have no time to refute post by Terral. To help you see your error I will say this. "I have no desire to refute you with bible quotes and polished arguments with the intention of bringing glory to myself. Nor in parading myself and my own abilities as a highly accurate and thorough teacher to win the respect and admiration of my fellow man.". Are you getting my point?

Terral do you really think I care that deeply about what happens to you in your life? (I am not trying to insult you here I am trying to bring to light the reality of internet discussion). The truth is No. I can't and that's completely ok before God. Its not humanly possible for me to really care about every person. You are at a loss because you are strongly apposed with no one to offer genuine correction. I hope someone else closer to you cares enough to help your understanding. I'm sure you're a nice person and I am not trying to inflict any insult nn you, I just have other responsibilities.

THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IS UTTER NONSENCE. THERE IS ONLY A SINGLE, FINAL GATHERING AT THE VERY END.

 

[Terral]

Please Find The Time To Post Your Views

Hi Bjdea:

Thank you for writing to voice your opinions of others.

Bjdea1 >> Have no time to refute post by Terral . . .

Then there is no sense in even mentioning my name in any of your posts. How much time would it take to “quote >>†one thing and show the error using Scripture? That would take five minutes or less if you know the topic well. All of this posturing in your post is just that. This thread is about the timing of the Rapture, which is NOT a salvation issue at all. We disagree over how end time events are fulfilled and you act like souls are added to the devil over our current interpretations of these things.

If there are errors in my testimony, then that is what you are here to correct using Scripture. This side of the discussion is willing to write on this topic with conviction. I would love to ‘quote >>’ from your interpretations of end time events, but you never got around to writing on ‘the topic’ of this thread. Whether Bjdea1 agrees with interpretation A or B is irrelevant. Please try again if you muster up sufficient time and conviction to share those things with the other members here.

Thank you again for writing.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral