Bible Verses Ignored, by Rapture theory

[Jay T]

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And THEN...shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Question: Did you get it ?



OK...Let's try another one......
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
QUESTION: Did you pick up on verse 8 ?
The wicked are destroyed....with Christ's coming !

HEY !!!
Isn't that about what Matthew 24:37.....and, on says ?

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
QUESTION: What happened to the wicked, in Noah's day of the Flood ?

Now tell me.....why do the people who advocate the Rapture theory, ignore... these Bible verses ?

 

[Georges]

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And THEN...shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Question: Did you get it ?

Has nothing to do with the Rapture......I believe there will be a rapture, but there are 'no" rapture verses asscociated with Mat 24.

OK...Let's try another one......
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
QUESTION: Did you pick up on verse 8 ?
The wicked are destroyed....with Christ's coming !

OK, verse 8 has nothing to do with the Rapture. Verse 1 is a rapture verse and so is verse 3, verse 8....not.

HEY !!!
Isn't that about what Matthew 24:37.....and, on says ?

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
QUESTION: What happened to the wicked, in Noah's day of the Flood ?

Now tell me.....why do the people who advocate the Rapture theory, ignore... these Bible verses ?

Yikes....JT, don't you understand that if believers are raptured the only ones left will be those who are eating ang drinking like in the days of Noah? You are confusing the rapture of the believers with the destruction of the wicked....2 separate incidents.

 

[Jay T]

[Yikes....JT, don't you understand that if believers are raptured the only ones left will be those who are eating ang drinking like in the days of Noah? You are confusing the rapture of the believers with the destruction of the wicked....2 separate incidents.

No, I take it as it reads....when the flood hit, in Noah's time ...the wicked were destroyed at the very same time, as Noah and his family were saved in the ark.

 

[Georges]

[Yikes....JT, don't you understand that if believers are raptured the only ones left will be those who are eating ang drinking like in the days of Noah? You are confusing the rapture of the believers with the destruction of the wicked....2 separate incidents.

No, I take it as it reads....when the flood hit, in Noah's time ...the wicked were destroyed at the very same time, as Noah and his family were saved in the ark.

Question for you Jay....how long were Noah and his family in the ark before it began to rain?

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

 

[Terral]

Our Mystery Rapture Is When the Day of the Lord Is "At

Hi Jay T:

Thank you for starting this thread. Please allow me to start by stating the obvious that our Gathering to the Lord is taught by the Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (1 Corinthians 15:51-55). Paul describes our mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51) gathering as taking place when the ‘Day of the Lord’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) COMES (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That marks the time that the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†BEGINS. Christ is describing (Matthew 24) the ‘end of the age’ events taking place 1000 Years LATER at the ‘end’ of the same 1000 Year Period. Therefore, NONE of your Matthew 24 quotes apply to ‘our’ mystery gathering. This is Paul’s teaching on ‘our’ gathering right here:

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be “caught up†(harapzo #726) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.†1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

My question back to you is, “Why do people who refuse to believe the Harapzo (Rapture) teaching of Paul ignore these Bible verses???†Did Paul mention anything about wars, rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes? No. He just told these Thessalonians to “make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands†(1 Thessalonians 4:11). Does that sound anything remotely similar to what Christ is saying in Matthew 24? No. Here is another question for you, “Why do people who refuse to believe the Harapzo (Rapture) teaching of Paul try to combine his teachings with the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24?â€Â

Jay T >> (snip Matthew 24:29-30) >> Question: Did you get it ? OK...Let's try another one...... (snip 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Why should we get ‘it,’ when your verses include no commentary? Paul is describing the “1000 Years†(2 Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord†(2 Peter 3:10) BEGINNING, while Christ is describing the same 1000 Year Period ENDING. How many years are there from 1 to 1000? Answer: 1000 Years. That is why many of us never connect these Matthew 24 verses to anything within the Pauline Epistles.

Jay T >> QUESTION: Did you pick up on verse 8 ? The wicked are destroyed....with Christ's coming !

Paul is contrasting the ‘physical’ coming of Christ at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24) with the spiritual ‘mystery of iniquity’ (2 Thessalonians 2:7) “already at work†in our days as we speak. We are gathered through the gospel to the ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12) through the ‘mystery of Christ’ (Ephesians 3:4, Colossians 4:3) AND a body of sin is being gathered through the antithesis of that doctrine, which is what the ‘mystery of iniquity’ is all about. Can you look around and see the mystery ‘body of Christ’ in the world right now? No. We are a ‘spiritual’ body of believers making up the ‘one body’ (Ephesians 4:4) growing to maturity (Ephesians 4:11-13). However, Satan’s body of sin is also growing in even larger numbers right along side as a false church with ‘servants of righteousness’ (2 Corinthians 11:15) under the ‘angel of light’ (2 Corinthians 11:14). Satan is chained (Revelation 20:2) to start the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†way back in Revelation 1:10, as the sound of the trumpet ‘behind’ John is the same trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. John could not see that event, because this is all part of the ‘mystery’ (1 Corinthians 15:51) and things “hidden in God†(Ephesians 3:9).

Jay T >> HEY !!! Isn't that about what Matthew 24:37.....and, on says ? Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (snip)

You are describing events that take place 1000 Years AFTER Paul’s Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. That is how many years exist between the START of the 1000 Years Day of the Lord and the END of the same Period.

Jay >> Now tell me.....why do the people who advocate the Rapture theory, ignore... these Bible verses?

We ignore everything in Matthew 24 and never try to mix events of PROPHECY with those part of the “revelation of the mystery†(Romans 16:25). Christ was giving His Olivet Discourse as if this 2000 Year Mystery Time did not even exist. Paul was raised after Calvary (Acts 9:15) and given our gospel through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Galatians 1:11-12) for the unseen mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) unseen by the Old Testament Prophets. Daniel could not give prophecy about our Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, because God did not allow anyone from the OT to see it. Since Christ tied Daniel’s prophecies directly to His Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:15), that should tell you that those things were indeed seen by the Prophets. Does Paul mention any prophets in either letter to the Thessalonians? No. The Mystery / Prophecy timeline looks something like this:

Paul is describing the “Rapture (Body)†that takes place when the “Day of the Lord†is (At Hand) (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That is the transitional event that separates the red Mystery Time from the blue “Day of the Lord†time of Prophecy being fulfilled. Everything within the red “Dispensation of God’s Grace†(Ephesians 3:2) section is taking place today. The “Antichrist Appears†physically just prior to Christ over on the right hand side of the blue section of Prophecy at the ‘end of the age.’ Another diagram looks like this:

Daniel could stand in the “Prophets Vision†position and see into the 1000 Years “Day of the Lo†but he sees nothing inside the current “2000 Year Mystery Time†we are living through right now. Paul is describing the “Body Rapture (First Resurrection),†but Christ (Matthew 24) is describing events 1000 years later at the ‘end of the age’ just prior to the Judgment of the living (Matthew 25:31-33) and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then can we head into the New Heavens and New Earth of Revelation 21:1+.

I hope this helps you to see our Mystery Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) as a totally separate event from everything taking place at the ‘end of the age’ about 1000 Years later.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[irishrain]

Warning, this Chart is all Wrong.

The timing of Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 is for this flesh age of grace. NOT when satan is released a second time at the end of the millennium. Rev 20:7 Satan does NOT have his Beast system gov of Rev 13. for they are in the Lake of fire in Rev 19:20 Which happens at the seventh trumpet When Christ returns 1 Cor 15:52 There are only seven trumpets. The seventh is the last one out there. 2078 eschatos .

In the millenniun we are not is Flesh bodies at that time.

2 Pet 3 there are three periods of time, the first earth age.
Time aion 165, used for World, a period of time, age.
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/list.html Ap. 129

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


This is this DISPENSATION, of time, NOW, this FLESH age.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

TIME wise in Gen 1:5 first day (1000 Years), Gen 1:8 SECOND DAY(2000 years),Gen 1:13 3000 years and so it goes. One Gods days is 1000 of mans on earth. Heavenly time is different the earthly time.

This is the millennium period
2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

DAY of God is the eternity Rev 22
2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I pray no one is sucked in by this chart! We are in Daniels last week now. Look around you. Matt 24.Luk 21.Mark 13 are the same seals of Rev 6 which we are to have sealed ( the truth)in our minds. Because you either have Gods seal, or mark of the beast! There's no in between.

 

[Terral]

The Mystery Time Leads Up The 1000 Years Day Of The Lord

Hi IrishRain:

Thank you for writing.

IrishRain >> Warning, this Chart is all Wrong.

No sir. The Chart above is most accurate. If the Chart is wrong then so is my commentary describing the things contained inside. Please ‘quote >>’ any of that commentary that appears off and point out the errors using Scripture the way I am about to do for you.

IrishRain >> The timing of Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 is for this flesh age of grace.

First off there is no such thing as any ‘age of grace’ in your Bible. That is from the dogma of dispensationalists. Can you provide us with one Bible verse using this phrase ‘age of grace?’ No. We have been living through the same ‘Evil Age’ (Galatians 1:4) since the darkness (Ephesians 6:12) of Genesis 1:2. The end of this evil age comes with the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15, so we can begin the coming new age in the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. This 2000 Year Mystery Time began with the Apostle Paul on the Road To Damascus in Acts 9, 22 and 26, where God shows his conversion in three separate chapters of Acts. Paul writes,

“But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace (Acts 9:15), was pleased to reveal His Son in me (Colossians 1:27) so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.†Galatians 1:15-17.

Paul is making reference to the time that God called Him as the ‘first’ (protos = 1 Timothy 1:15-16) to become our ‘father IN Christ through the gospel’ (1 Corinthians 4:15). He is describing the fact that God gave this “dispensation of God’s grace†(Ephesians 3:2) to him for all of those called through his “my gospel†(Romans 16:25). The charts above shows this “dispensation of God’s grace†as totally separate from the Old Testament Dispensation of Mosaic Law and the Kingdom Dispensation of the coming restored Kingdom of God on earth during the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†Paul says that our mystery church is ‘caught up’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) ‘COMES’ (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That marks the time that this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ ENDS and the coming 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†BEGINS. We can recognize ‘events’ displaying ‘duration’ of this ‘Day Of The Lord’ by comparing Christ’s statements to the Twelve with Paul’s statements to these Thessalonians. Paul writes us to say:

“Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.†1 Thessalonians 5:1-2.

Paul has just connected the ‘times and epochs’ Events of Prophecy with the same “Day of the Lord†that is about to BEGIN “just like a thief in the night.†Pay careful attention to what Christ is going to say in answering the very first question from the Twelve in Acts. There is an epiphany in this if you pay careful attention. : 0 )

“So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority. . .â€Â. Acts 1:6-7.

Christ has just connected “restoring the kingdom to Israel†to the same “times and epochs†of the “Day of the Lord†that the Thessalonians had “no need of anything to be written to you.†Why did Paul have no need to write anything about the restoration of Israel during the ‘times and epochs’ period of the ‘Day of the Lord?’ The reason is that we will be in heaven looking down on all of those things, because we are taken when that 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†B.E.G.I.N.S.

Elijah must return FIRST (Matthew 17:10) and restore all things (Matthew 17:11), which is what the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†is all about. That is why my first diagram above shows “Elijah Appears To Restore All Things†on the line dividing this “Mystery Time†of Today (blood) from the “Day of the Lord†shaded in blue (water). The common error of Bible Commentators today is to give the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†no duration at all, as they combine Paul’s Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) with the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24, when indeed those things take place 1000 Years apart. Paul is describing that same “Day of the Lord†BEGINNING and Christ is describing how that same 1000 Years ENDS. The second diagram above shows that our First Resurrection takes place to START the 1000 Years and the Second Resurrection takes place 1000 Years later at the ‘end of the age.’ The time between those two resurrections is the same 1000 Years that Satan is in the pit (Revelation 20:2-7). That is what allows Elijah to come and restore all things in the first place . . .

IriahRain >> NOT when satan is released a second time at the end of the millennium. Rev 20:7 Satan does NOT have his Beast system gov of Rev 13.

No sir. Satan is released in Revelation 12:12 to work with the Beast in Revelation 13. You can clearly see them working together throughout the chapter during the ‘short time’ (Revelation 12:12, Revelation 20:7). That short time is the same time that the Beast is on the earth using the Temple of God to set up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matthew 24:15) and forcing everyone on earth to bear his mark (Revelation 13:16-17) of the Beast. You say that Matthew 24 (Christ’s Olivet Discourse) is connected to this ‘age of grace’ that does not even exist, then you try to disconnect the Beast from entering the ‘holy place’ to set up his ‘abomination of desolation’ that precedes the ‘end of the age’ (Daniel 12:11-13, Matthew 24:15). My diagrams place those events at the ‘end of the age,’ and 1000 Years AFTER the “Day of the Lord†begins, which is exactly what Scripture says.

IrishRain >> for they are in the Lake of fire in Rev 19:20 Which happens at the seventh trumpet When Christ returns 1 Cor 15:52 There are only seven trumpets. The seventh is the last one out there. 2078 eschatos . In the millenniun we are not is Flesh bodies at that time

No sir. There is no ‘seventh trumpet’ connected to anything in the Pauline Epistles that describe this 1000 Years Day of the Lord BEGINNING. Christ comes for our mystery body to start that 1000 Years, but He is not seen by the world like at His second coming at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:30-31). You are combining Paul’s START of the 1000 Years with Christ’s ENDING of the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†“We†are inside the Lamb throughout Revelation, as the members of “His Body†(Colossians 1:24) church unseen by the Prophets of Scripture except Paul. He says that we return with Christ to be revealed with Him (Matthew 24:30) “In Glory†(Colossians 3:4). Obviously that cannot include ‘us’ (Christ's body = 1 Corinthians 12:27) in physical human bodies, as we were transformed into ‘immortality’ (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†BEGAN. We will have been in our glorified bodies 1000 Years by the time we return with Christ in glory.

IrishRain >> 2 Pet 3 there are three periods of time, the first earth age. (snip 2 Peter 3:5-6) This is this DISPENSATION, of time, NOW, this FLESH age. (snip 2 Peter 3:7-8) TIME wise in Gen 1:5 first day (1000 Years), Gen 1:8 SECOND DAY(2000 years),Gen 1:13 3000 years and so it goes. This is the millennium period (snip 2 Peter 3:10).

We most certainly disagree. All of these different ‘ages’ are figments of your creative imagination. You cannot find one reference to any “FLESH age†in the Bible, because no such thing exists. Satan is the evil “god of this world†(2 Corinthians 4:3-4) during this entire “evil age†that began way back in Genesis 1:2 and shall end when his sorry behind is thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) with all of his cronies (Revelation 20:11-15). The only age shifts in Scripture takes place between the perfect ages of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 AND between Revelation 20:15 and Revelation 21:1. Everything between Genesis 1:2 and Revelation 20:15 is the same “evil age†(Galatians 1:4) predominated by the same ‘darkness’ (Genesis 1:2) of the evil rulers in the heavenly (Ephesians 6:12) as we speak. What you tried to do is separate the “day as a thousand years†(2 Peter 3:8) from the “Day of the Lord†(2 Peter 3:10), which shows us the ‘duration’ of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord,†as the same 1000 Years that Satan is in the pit (Revelation 1 – Revelation 12:12).

IrishRain >> I pray no one is sucked in by this chart!

My charts are laid out exactly like your Bible. Go back up to the first one and we see the Old Testament in yellow (golden) on the left like the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple with the Prophets and the Law. Then John the Baptist appears from God (John 1:6) preaching the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 3:1-6) to open the Four Gospels. Christ’s baptism (Matthew 3:15-16) marks the time that Christ must increase and John must decrease (John 3:30). Christ continued preaching the same “gospel of the kingdom†(Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35), but He had to leave for the “Helper†(John 16:7) to be sent back to the Twelve. Christ had to decrease out of the picture so that Holy Spirit could increase on the Day of Pentecost. That kingdom church is still saved by repentance and water baptism (Acts 2:38), just like John the Baptist preached from the beginning (Mark 1:4). However, God uses the account of Steven and his stoning (Acts 6-7) in two chapters to show the beginning of the End for the Kingdom Church under Peter.

Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles would increase as Peter’s kingdom church is ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) in the same way of John the Baptist (beheaded = Matthew 14:10) and Christ (crucifixion) and Steven (name means “Crown†= Israel’s transgression in rejection Christ’s Kingship over the kingdom). We continue to preach Paul’s Gospel today, but the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ also was ‘cut off,’ and the entire Kingdom Dispensation Program from God has been held in abeyance for the past 2000 Years depicted by the red section of the first diagram above. Our mystery Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) marks the time that we are also ‘cut off’ from this world to ascend and meet the Lord in the air as the Members of His Body, just like Christ ascended in Acts 1:9-11. Only then can Elijah receive the Holy Spirit from our collective bodies and begin offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom†Once again, which is why you see that gospel message at the bottom of the blue section of the first diagram above depicting the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†The New Heaven and New Earth come in only AFTER the dark blue “Tribulation†Period is complete and Satan with his cronies are found in the lake of fire. Again, that timeline is laid out exactly like your Bible and says the exact same things.

IrishRain >> We are in Daniels last week now.

That is quite impossible, because Daniel sees the events of “Prophecy†like those taking place at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:15). Paul never quotes Daniel once as seeing anything related to our 2000 Years “Mystery Time†depicted by the Pauline Epistles in the timeline of the first diagram above. If we were living through Daniel’s last week (that is funny), then Paulâ₢s gospel would be according to the fulfillment of Prophecy and not the ‘revelation of the mystery’ (Romans 16:25). None of the OT prophets saw Paul, our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) or our mystery translation (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) to immortality. Daniel’s ‘prophetic’ seventh week lasts only seven years and he describes the number of days precisely (Daniel 12:11-13). Paul says that this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†COMES like a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2), which tells you that NONE of the OT Prophets were given to see how the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†BEGINS.

IrishRain >> Look around you. Matt 24.Luk 21.Mark 13 are the same seals of Rev 6 which we are to have sealed ( the truth)in our minds. Because you either have Gods seal, or mark of the beast! There's no in between.

Heh . . . This is no refutation to anything in my post above. Let’s not pretend that Terral has posted diagrams apart from including Scripture AND commentary. IrishRain has every opportunity to simply “quote me >>†and point out the errors in my descriptions, which we can see he did not even try to do. I am more than happy to answer your questions on the content of any of my diagrams that have withstood the test of Debate long before I posted them on this fine Board.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Georges]

I'm in agreement with Irish on this one. Chart Wrong....Commentary off.....

If you want to look at the most accurate endtime timeline chart, of which there are many, type a search for any one of Clarence Larkin's Charts online.....


They are the most accurate.....with commentary as well. Wish I had more time to dispute point by point....maybe this eve when I'm at home. Stay tuned.

 

[Vic C.]

First off there is no such thing as any ‘age of grace’ in your Bible. That is from the dogma of dispensationalists. Can you provide us with one Bible verse using this phrase ‘age of grace?’ No.

Yes, actually:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:2 (Young's Literal Translation)
2 if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you,

I am not a dispensationalist, but I have to concede to the fact that are at least a couple of "ages" taught in the Bible.

 

[Terral]

Ages Versus Dispensations

Hi Vic:

Thank you for writing.

Terral Original >> First off there is no such thing as any ‘age of grace’ in your Bible. That is from the dogma of dispensationalists. Can you provide us with one Bible verse using this phrase ‘age of grace?’ No. We have been living through the same ‘Evil Age’ (Galatians 1:4) since the darkness (Ephesians 6:12) of Genesis 1:2. The end of this evil age comes with the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15, so we can begin the coming new age in the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. This 2000 Year Mystery Time began with the Apostle Paul on the Road To Damascus in Acts 9, 22 and 26, where God shows his conversion in three separate chapters of Acts. Paul writes,

Vic >> Yes, actually: (snip Ephesians 3:2-6) Ephesians 3:2 (Young's Literal Translation) 2 if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you,

You gave us a verse on the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ and not any ‘age of grace.’ An ‘age’ would be an ‘aion’ (#165) of Grace and not a ‘dispensation’ (oikonomia #3622) of grace which you provided. There is no such thing as any ‘age of grace’ in your Bible. How many times do the terms ‘age’ and ‘grace’ appear together in the same verse? Zero. NASB.

Vic >> I am not a dispensationalist, but I have to concede to the fact that are at least a couple of "ages" taught in the Bible.

Please help us out by providing that kind of information. Paul’s reference to this ‘evil age’ (Galatians 1:4) is not even a proper name, but one he applies to the time Satan and his evil forces of the darkness are in power (Ephesians 6:12). Since we see the darkness fall in Genesis 1:2 upon the deep and Satan is cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10, then there is no age change between those two verses of Scripture. Christ does refer to the ‘age to come’ in places like Matthew 12:32, Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30 like Paul does in Ephesians 1:21 and Hebrews in Hebrews 6:5. Paul even mentions that there are ‘ages to come’ in Ephesians 2:7, but there are no proper names attached to any of them. The concept of an ‘age of grace’ is sometimes connected to this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) in the way you have tried to combine those two phrases above, when in truth there is nothing to compare. A dispensation is a ‘mode of dealing’ and not a time or epoch, according to Vines’ definition of the term. http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible ... nd_term.pl (plug in ‘dispensation’). Vines defines the term ‘aion’ saying,

“aion "an age, era" (to be connected with aei, "ever," rather than with ao, "to breathe"), signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period. The force attaching to the word is not so much that of the actual length of a period, but that of a period marked by spiritual or moral characteristics. This is illustrated in the us of the adjective [see Note 1 after A1 below] in the phrase "life eternal," in John_17:3, in respect of the increasing knowledge of God.†Vines’ Expository Dictionary of NT Words.

That defining characteristic of this 'evil age' is the 'darkness' of Satan and his cronies of darkness.

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Larkin's Work Is Good, But Off Here And There

Hi Georges:

Thank you for writing.

Georges >> I'm in agreement with Irish on this one. Chart Wrong....Commentary off.....

Perhaps we have the makings of a Great Debate. : 0 ).

Georges >> f you want to look at the most accurate endtime timeline chart, of which there are many, type a search for any one of Clarence Larkin's Charts online.....

Many of Clarence Larkin’s Books are on my book shelves and I have read them all. His work is very good, but he is off on some things IMHO.

Georges >> They are the most accurate.....with commentary as well. Wish I had more time to dispute point by point....maybe this eve when I'm at home. Stay tuned.

Okie; and I am looking forward to your criticisms of my work. Larkin tried to force the church periods of Revelation 1-3 into the 2000 Years of this mystery time that none of the Prophets were given to see, which represents his grave error. Daniel and others can see the events of Matthew 24 and Revelation, but none of them can see into our 2000 Year Mystery Time of today. That should tell you that Revelation is fulfilled at the ‘end of the age’ along with Christ’s Olivet Events and NOT our mystery time of today. The reason that my interpretation appears off is because you are following Larkin’s same mistakes. He misuses the term 'age' also in describing a “Kingdom Age, Age of Conscience, Age of Law, Etc.†(Page 3.5) and "Millennial Age" (Dispensational Truth Page 41, 1918 Edition). He also separates the coming of the “Antichrist†and “Satan†by 1000 Years (Page 16), which is refuted by the fact that the dragon and beast work together in Revelation 13 and go into the lake of fire following the same battle described in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. He never understood that both the antichrist and Satan work at the end of this current evil age just prior to Christ’s single coming (Matthew 24:30-31) and that they are both in the lake of fire before the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. The reason many cannot distinguish between an ‘age’ and a ‘dispensation’ is because Larkin used those terms interchangeable without regard for the differences. GL in the discussion and thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

The Church is not subject to prophecy, it was a mystery revealed by Paul.

 

[Georges]

Re: Larkin's Work Is Good, But Off Here And There

Hi Georges:

Thank you for writing.

Georges >> I'm in agreement with Irish on this one. Chart Wrong....Commentary off.....

Perhaps we have the makings of a Great Debate. : 0 ).

[quote:2fc5d]Georges >> f you want to look at the most accurate endtime timeline chart, of which there are many, type a search for any one of Clarence Larkin's Charts online.....

Many of Clarence Larkin’s Books are on my book shelves and I have read them all. His work is very good, but he is off on some things IMHO.

Georges >> They are the most accurate.....with commentary as well. Wish I had more time to dispute point by point....maybe this eve when I'm at home. Stay tuned.

Okie; and I am looking forward to your criticisms of my work. Larkin tried to force the church periods of Revelation 1-3 into the 2000 Years of this mystery time that none of the Prophets were given to see, which represents his grave error.

Well....I'm nobody to criticize but will engage in debate as it is a learning experience for all.

Daniel and others can see the events of Matthew 24 and Revelation, but none of them can see into our 2000 Year Mystery Time of today.

No problem with that.....

That should tell you that Revelation is fulfilled at the ‘end of the age’ along with Christ’s Olivet Events and NOT our mystery time of today.

No problem with that.....

The reason that my interpretation appears off is because you are following Larkin’s same mistakes.

Here our paths split.....Larkins term age isn't written in stone but is merely guideline description of a shift in prophetic themes.

He misuses the term 'age' also in describing a “Kingdom Age, Age of Conscience, Age of Law, Etc.†(Page 3.5) and "Millennial Age" (Dispensational Truth Page 41, 1918 Edition).

How so?

He also separates the coming of the “Antichrist†and “Satan†by 1000 Years (Page 16),

Not so....Larkin has Satan being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period.... Disp Truth (Chart: Satan, god of this age) as a matter of fact, most of the charts show the "dragon" being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period. Explanation D.T. page 114

which is refuted by the fact that the dragon and beast work together in Revelation 13 and go into the lake of fire following the same battle described in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

As I've stated above, both charts and explanation show Satan being expelled from heaven midway through the trib period. However, Satan is bound for 1000 years, the AC is thrown into the lake of fire before the 1000 years.

He never understood that both the antichrist and Satan work at the end of this current evil age just prior to Christ’s single coming (Matthew 24:30-31)

He clearly states this and shows it in many of his charts......In many charts Satan (dragon) and the beast are shown in the tribulation period. Satan bound at the 2nd coming, beast takes a swim in the heated pool.

and that they are both in the lake of fire before the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

Of course they are in the lake of fire by 20:11-15, but however comma, there is a 1000 year period in between the event of Rev 20:1 and 20:11. They clearly are not thrown into the lake of fire at the same time.

The reason many cannot distinguish between an ‘age’ and a ‘dispensation’ is because Larkin used those terms interchangeable without regard for the differences. GL in the discussion and thank you for writing,

By definition Age and Dispensation are the same....Just looked them up in Websters to make sure.....

Age:

2 : a period of time dominated by a central figure or prominent feature <the age of Pericles>: as a : a period in history or human progress <the age of reptiles> <the age of exploration> b : a cultural period marked by the prominence of a particular item <entering the atomic age> c : a division of geologic time that is usually shorter than an epoch

Dispensation:

4a: The divine ordering of the affairs of the world. 4b: A divinely appointed order or age.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral[/quote:2fc5d]

Terral....I don't agree with all of Larkin's timeline's either....but he is very accurate with the biblical information given

 

[Jay T]

Re: Larkin's Work Is Good, But Off Here And There

There is no 7 year Tribulation period in the Bible.

 

[Terral]

Rebuttal To Your Diagram

Hi JM:

Thank you for offering up your Diagram. Here is my attempt to point out the errors. I would like to quote your commentary and offer reproving statements using Scripture, but you did not offer any.

1. Paul connects our Rapture to the “times and epochs†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) beginning, when the “Day of the Lord†is “at hand.†2 Thessalonians 2:2. Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in Acts 1:6-7 and already taught the Twelve that Elijah MUST come first (Matthew 17:10) to restore “all things†(Matthew 17:11). Your chart includes no ‘times and epochs’ and no Elijah restoring anything.

2. You have the “Lord’s Day of wrath†coming (Acts 2:20-21), before “His Spirit†is poured out on “All Mankind.†Acts 2:17-19.

3. Christ says that the “Gospel of the kingdom†MUST go to the whole world first, before the antichrist can set up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matthew 24:15). We do not even preach that gospel today, but Elijah does that when he returns to restore all things.

4. You have Israel’s Program resuming and being fulfilled, but your timeline only allows 7 Years above. You have the seven years of tribulation BEFORE the kingdom is even restored and the Temple rebuilt, so that the antichrist can come and fulfill Matthew 24:15.

5. Christ’s coming (Matthew 24:30-31) is AFTER the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-13) is complete. Therefore, Israel’s Program MUST be restored with the kingdom and the Temple, BEFORE the antichrist appears and BEFORE Christ returns in Matthew 24:30. You have the Tribulation STARTING the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord,†instead of ENDING it like Christ shows in Matthew 24.

6. Paul says “ages to come†in Ephesians 2:7, but you are trying to transform that into a single age that begins in Revelation 21:1+. We are living in the same ‘evil age’ (Galatians 1:4) from Genesis 1:2 to Revelation 20:15 and the Final Judgment. You have an age change with Hebrews – Revelation, which is actually spanning the “1000 Years†(Revelation 20:5) “Day of The Lord†itself and part of THIS evil age prior to that judgment.

7. You started the ‘Dispensation Of God’s Grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) in Romans 1, when Paul was converted back in Acts 9:15 as the ‘first’ (Protos = 1 Timothy 1:15-16). Paul is preaching his ‘gospel of the grace of God’ (Acts 20:24) here in Acts, which is the transitional book of our New Testament. Since Acts spans the three decades from Pentecost to Paul’s imprisonment, we cannot begin the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ after the close of Acts.

The biggest problem with your chart is that you have no duration at all for the 1000 Years Day of the Lord that must be fulfilled BEFORE Christ can even return in Matthew 24 to judge the living (Matthew 25:31-33) and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15). Paul is describingthe “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) BEGINNING and Christ (Matthew 24) is describing the same 1000 Years Period ENDING. There are 1000 years between Paul’s Mystery Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) AND the ‘end of the age’ events taking place in Matthew 24 and Revelation.

Thank you again for presenting your diagram,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Daniel's "One Week" Represents Those Seven Years

Hi JayT:

JayT >> There is no 7 year Tribulation period in the Bible.

Thank you for writing. We most certainly disagree. Daniel provides all of the components teaching the seven years of tribulation and he even gives the precise number of days.

"And he* will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:27.

This “he*†is the same one to come and set up the ‘abomination of desolation,’ according to Christ in Matthew 24:15. Daniel divided the ‘one week’ directly into two parts by saying “but in the middle of the week.†Daniel continues writing on this topic, saying,

"Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.†Daniel 11:31.

This is what Christ is warning His Elect about in Matthew 24:15, when the ‘son of destruction’ (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) comes to set up his “abomination of desolation.†However, Daniel also connects the number of days to the time that ‘abomination of desolation’ is set up to the end, saying,

"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age." Daniel 12:11-13.

Half of seven years is 1277.5 days, which places Daniel’s prediction just about 12 days off from being 3.5 years. He then adds exactly 1.5 months to that time (45 days) and adds a blessing for those who attain to the very end. Christ told His Disciples,

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.†Matthew 24:13-14.

The context of Christ’s predictions AND those of Daniel are made directly to events leading up to the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3, Daniel 12:13). Daniel divided his “one week†(Daniel 9:27) into those two parts and gave just about the right number of days, which tells you that the ‘abomination of desolation’ is set up just prior to the second half of that week where he stops the ‘sacrifice and grain offering.’ To sit back and claim there is “no such thing as any 7 Year Tribulation Period in the Bible¢â‚¬Â is to dismiss a mountain of testimony from Daniel and Christ who uses him as the prophet who actually saw the ‘end of the age.’

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Georges]

Re: Daniel's "One Week" Represents Those Seven Yea

Hi JayT:

JayT >> There is no 7 year Tribulation period in the Bible.

Thank you for writing. We most certainly disagree. Daniel provides all of the components teaching the seven years of tribulation and he even gives the precise number of days.

[quote:7af13]"And he* will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Daniel 9:27.

This “he*†is the same one to come and set up the ‘abomination of desolation,’ according to Christ in Matthew 24:15. Daniel divided the ‘one week’ directly into two parts by saying “but in the middle of the week.†Daniel continues writing on this topic, saying,

"Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.†Daniel 11:31.

This is what Christ is warning His Elect about in Matthew 24:15, when the ‘son of destruction’ (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) comes to set up his “abomination of desolation.†However, Daniel also connects the number of days to the time that ‘abomination of desolation’ is set up to the end, saying,

"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age." Daniel 12:11-13.

Half of seven years is 1277.5 days, which places Daniel’s prediction just about 12 days off from being 3.5 years. He then adds exactly 1.5 months to that time (45 days) and adds a blessing for those who attain to the very end. Christ told His Disciples,

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.†Matthew 24:13-14.

The context of Christ’s predictions AND those of Daniel are made directly to events leading up to the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3, Daniel 12:13). Daniel divided his “one week†(Daniel 9:27) into those two parts and gave just about the right number of days, which tells you that the ‘abomination of desolation’ is set up just prior to the second half of that week where he stops the ‘sacrifice and grain offering.’ To sit back and claim there is “no such thing as any 7 Year Tribulation Period in the Bible†is to dismiss a mountain of testimony from Daniel and Christ who uses him as the prophet who actually saw the ‘end of the age.’

In Christ Jesus,

Terral[/quote:7af13]

FWIW, I agree with Terral on this.

In regard to JT's statement found above, Terral, there are those who don't consider the last week of the 70 to be a complete 7 year period of violent tribulation. Many of them only consider the last 3 1/2 years as the "tribulation period", the tribulation period only includes the time of God's wrath. Of course there are those "such as Lutherans" who do not believe in a tribulation period at all.

I see the last week of the 70 as a 7 year period known as the "time of Jacob's trouble". I see the events (seals, trumpets, bowls) of course as a timeline event, with the events happening concurrently and not successively (simulating what the OT describes as the "labor pains") . The first event, the first seal begins the 70th week. That the 2nd seal happens early in the week is an indication that there is "tribulation" going on. Where I think the mistake comes in is that many Christians think that the tribulation involves future Christians.....where in fact it involves mankind and nature in total.

The last week of the 70 is still a 7 year tribulation period....beginining with mild birthpains increasing in intensity until the birth of the Messianic Kingdom. Gotta have the labor pains before the birth, in this case 7 years worth.

 

[Terral]

Vines Or Strongs But NEVER Webster . . .

Hi George:

Thank you for writing. We appear to agree on most everything to this point of your post.

Terral Original >> The reason that my interpretation appears off is because you are following Larkin’s same mistakes.

George’s Reply >> Here our paths split.....Larkins term age isn't written in stone but is merely guideline description of a shift in prophetic themes.

We disagree. Larkin fails to use ‘the definition’ of Age (aion #165) and he misapplies that term to where he is describing ‘dispensations’ (oikonomia #3622). Bible Commentary is either accurate and uses the ‘Greek’ definitions OR inaccurate by replacing those true definitions with the false notions of the commentator. You have to admit that this is a grave error for one called a “Dispensationalist.â€Â

Terral Original >> He misuses the term 'age' also in describing a “Kingdom Age, Age of Conscience, Age of Law, Etc.†(Page 3.5) and "Millennial Age" (Dispensational Truth Page 41, 1918 Edition).

George >> How so?

How so? Those are ‘dispensations’ (oikonomia #3622) and not ‘ages’ (aion #165) at all.

Terral Original >> He also separates the coming of the “Antichrist†and “Satan†by 1000 Years (Page 16),

George >> Not so....Larkin has Satan being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period.... Disp Truth (Chart: Satan, god of this age) as a matter of fact, most of the charts show the "dragon" being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period. Explanation D.T. page 114

You quoted my statement about Page 16 and moved on to talk about something else. You are WRONG, George. Please go back to Page 16 and look at what you claim is “Not so.†Larkin shows the “Sixth Day†the “6th Thousand Years†to then show the “Antichrist AD2000†Then he moves into the “Seventh Day The 7th Thousand Years†and has his little circle there saying “End of Satan AD 3000.†How many years do you count between AD 2000 AND AD 3000??? Larkin INCORRECTLY has the Antichrist appearing BEFORE “The Millennium†and Satan appearing AFTER the same “Millennium.†If you look above on the same page (16 of Dispensational Truth) you see a big gap and Larkin saying “The Length of Time between the Rapture and ‘Revelation†is UNKNOWN.†Heh. That length of time is unknown TO LARKIN, and he has “The Tribulation†appearing in AD 2000. We are living in 2006 partner and Larkin’s charts are OFF. Christ returns only AFTER the 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8) Day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10) is complete and AFTER Elijah returns FIRST (Matthew 17:10) to restore ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:11). Larkin’s diagrams have this “Length of time UNKOWN†lingo to cover for his lack of vision. When you place the 1000 Years that Satan is in the pit (Rev. 20:2-7) BEFORE that Tribulation and make his release (Revelation 12:12) PART of that ‘short time’ (Tribulation), then Larkin and Terral are in complete agreement. He just needs to make the “Second Coming†in “3000 AD†instead of “2000 AD.â€Â

Terral Original >> which is refuted by the fact that the dragon and beast work together in Revelation 13 and go into the lake of fire following the same battle described in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

George >> As I've stated above, both charts and explanation show Satan being expelled from heaven midway through the trib period. However, Satan is bound for 1000 years, the AC is thrown into the lake of fire before the 1000 years.

No sir. Go back to Page 16 of ‘Dispensational Truth’ and look at the top “Larger Scale†diagram where he places the “Second Coming†and the arrow pointing down to “AD 2000†clear as day. Note that this “Second Coming†FOLLOWS “The Tribulation.†Then look down at the timeline and find where he places the 2000 AD on the timeline. He places the “AD 2000†on the “Antichrist.†Then he passes through the entire 7th Thousand Years and deals with Satan in “AD 3000.†Therefore, unless you want to try and prove that Larkin has invented another “Tribulation,†which he DOES NOT NAME in this diagram, then your assertion that he expels Satan mid way through the Tribulation is false. The notion that the Antichrist (Beast) appears apart from Satan (Dragon) is also false. What does John see in Revelation 13?

“And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.†Revelation 13:1-2.

The dragon (Satan) precedes his beast and is preparing the way like John the Baptist did for Christ in the Four Gospels. The dragon (Satan) is giving his power and throne and authority to his Son (Beast), just like the Father gave life and authority to judge to His Son (John 5:26-27). The ‘thousand years’ that Satan was in the pit just ended with his release in Revelation 12:12.

"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time (Revelation 20:7)." And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) who gave birth to the male child (Christ).†Revelation 12:12-13.

The dragon is not cast down in the middle of any Tribulation period, because he is the instigator paving the way for the Beast from the beginning. Elijah has already returned and restored the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) during the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) that STARTED the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†The restored Kingdom AND Temple is what the Beast comes to use in setting up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13). This same Beast must come and make the covenant of peace to start the ‘one week’ (Daniel 9:27), but then he stops the offerings in the middle. That tells you that the Kingdom and Temple are already restored at his coming (Matthew 24:15). There is only one 1000 Years Day of the Lord and Satan with his Beast appear together at the ‘end’ of that 1000 Years and work within the same “short time,†just prior to Christ’s one “coming†at the “end of the age†(Matthew 24:3+).

Terral Original >. He never understood that both the antichrist and Satan work at the end of this current evil age just prior to Christ’s single coming (Matthew 24:30-31)

George >> He clearly states this and shows it in many of his charts......In many charts Satan (dragon) and the beast are shown in the tribulation period. Satan bound at the 2nd coming, beast takes a swim in the heated pool.

Satan is what??? Satan is bound for the same thousand years that Elijah is restoring all things. The battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) is the same battle fought to end both Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. There is just one Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) following that battle and the Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) and the dragon (Revelation 20:10) are in the lake of fire BEFORE that judgment takes place. God deals with both the Beast AND the Dragon AFTER the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.â€Â

Terral Original >> and that they are both in the lake of fire before the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

George >> Of course they are in the lake of fire by 20:11-15, but however comma, there is a 1000 year period in between the event of Rev 20:1 and 20:11. They clearly are not thrown into the lake of fire at the same time.

No sir. Revelation 20 is an overview of the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†that started back with John standing in the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) in Revelation 1:10. Satan was bound by the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the sound of the trumpet “behind†John back in Revelation 1. The 1000 Years day of the Lord and the events of the “short time†that follow have been transpiring from Revelation 1 to Revelation 12:12 and Satan’s release. You have created your own second 1000 Years from John’s overview chapter (Revelation 20) given from Satan’s perspective of this same 1000 Years; and thus you are duplicating Larkin’s mistake . . .

Terral Original >> The reason many cannot distinguish between an ‘age’ and a ‘dispensation’ is because Larkin used those terms interchangeable without regard for the differences. GL in the discussion and thank you for writing,

George >> By definition Age and Dispensation are the same....Just looked them up in Websters to make sure.....

My God, George. Webster does not define the ancient Greek terms used in the New Testament. Try using Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words or Strongs Lexicon. Webster indeed . . . That is funny . . . We will try to pretend you did not make that statement . . .

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Paul Is Writing About Things "Hidden In God"

Hi George:

Thank you for writing.

George >> FWIW, I agree with Terral on this.

In regard to JT's statement found above, Terral, there are those who don't consider the last week of the 70 to be a complete 7 year period of violent tribulation. Many of them only consider the last 3 1/2 years as the "tribulation period", the tribulation period only includes the time of God's wrath. Of course there are those "such as Lutherans" who do not believe in a tribulation period at all.

Daniel’s ‘one week’ is still divided into two parts and the number of days equal 3.5 years almost exactly. Did Christ begin the wars and rumors of wars AFTER Matthew 24:15 and the appearance of the ‘abomination of desolation’?? No. False prophets rise up and “mislead many†back in Matthew 24:5 and we see famines and earthquakes in verse 7. Christ says “they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you†back in Matthew 24:9 and ‘lawlessness is increased’ in verse 12. The antichrist will destroy many through the ‘peace’ of the first 3.5 years and even more through the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21) that follows.

George >> I see the last week of the 70 as a 7 year period known as the "time of Jacob's trouble". I see the events (seals, trumpets, bowls) of course as a timeline event, with the events happening concurrently and not successively (simulating what the OT describes as the "labor pains") . The first event, the first seal begins the 70th week. That the 2nd seal happens early in the week is an indication that there is "tribulation" going on. Where I think the mistake comes in is that many Christians think that the tribulation involves future Christians.....where in fact it involves mankind and nature in total.

Very good, George, but please forgive if I am reluctant to even give comment on the 2nd Seal and other ‘end of the age’ events that we will see from heaven. Paul had no need to write about the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2), because we are taken with this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†COMES (2 Thessalonians 2:2) or when that Period BEGINS. Revelation is all about what happens AFTER we are taken (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and the great and terrible part takes place at the very END of that same 1000 Years. You guys have the events STARTING and the ENDING the same 1000 Year Period crammed together.

George >> The last week of the 70 is still a 7 year tribulation period....beginining with mild birthpains increasing in intensity until the birth of the Messianic Kingdom. Gotta have the labor pains before the birth, in this case 7 years worth.

The Kingdom must be restored and the Temple FIRST (Matthew 17:10-11), before the Antichrist can appear 1000 Years later to make all of that desolate. If the Antichrist appeared today (NOT), then where is the Temple for him to enter the Holy Place (Matthew 24:15)? How can the “gospel of the kingdom†(Matthew 24:14) go to the “Whole World,†when we do NOT even preach that gospel today? Again, you guys are mixing the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24 and Revelation with the START of the same 1000 years Day of the Lord and apparently have no room in your theology for the vast differences. There is no such thing as any 7 years of tribulation leading up to the “Day of the Lord†beginning. That is foolishness, because that day comes like a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2). Daniel is counting the days to the END OF THE AGE (Daniel 12:11-13, Matthew 24:15-31) and not that 1000 Years BEGINNING some 1000 years EARLIER. Paul is describing this 2000 Years Mystery Time that Daniel was not given to see. Daniel sees ONLY the ‘end of the age’ that Christ is describing and events that take place some 1000 Years from today at the ‘end of the age.’ Larkin and most everyone here has moved the Tribulation 1000 years to the START of the 1000 Years, instead of placing it at the ‘end of the age’ like the Bible says. My diagram above is very much accurate. Here it is again for this page:

Daniel can see over into the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†perfectly to the ‘end of the age.’ However, he cannot see anything in the red “Mystery Revealed†section leading up to our “Body Rapture†(1 Thessalonians 4:17) that STARTS that same 1000 Years period. Our Rapture STARTS the 1000 Years that Satan is in the Pit and Christ’s ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24 END the same1000 Years. You and I are living just about the time represented by “Today†on that timeline that STARTS the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Satan is chained at our Body Rapture (not shown) and is released to participate in the Great Tribulation (in purple) at the ‘end of the age.’

In Christ,

Terral

 

[Georges]

Re: Vines Or Strongs But NEVER Webster . . .

Hi George:

Thank you for writing. We appear to agree on most everything to this point of your post.

Terral Original >> The reason that my interpretation appears off is because you are following Larkin’s same mistakes.

George’s Reply >> Here our paths split.....Larkins term age isn't written in stone but is merely guideline description of a shift in prophetic themes.

We disagree. Larkin fails to use ‘the definition’ of Age (aion #165) and he misapplies that term to where he is describing ‘dispensations’ (oikonomia #3622). Bible Commentary is either accurate and uses the ‘Greek’ definitions OR inaccurate by replacing those true definitions with the false notions of the commentator. You have to admit that this is a grave error for one called a “Dispensationalist.â€Â

[quote:2c7f8]Terral Original >> He misuses the term 'age' also in describing a “Kingdom Age, Age of Conscience, Age of Law, Etc.†(Page 3.5) and "Millennial Age" (Dispensational Truth Page 41, 1918 Edition).

George >> How so?

How so? Those are ‘dispensations’ (oikonomia #3622) and not ‘ages’ (aion #165) at all.

Terral Original >> He also separates the coming of the “Antichrist†and “Satan†by 1000 Years (Page 16),

George >> Not so....Larkin has Satan being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period.... Disp Truth (Chart: Satan, god of this age) as a matter of fact, most of the charts show the "dragon" being kicked out of heaven midway through the trib period. Explanation D.T. page 114

You quoted my statement about Page 16 and moved on to talk about something else. You are WRONG, George. Please go back to Page 16 and look at what you claim is “Not so.†Larkin shows the “Sixth Day†the “6th Thousand Years†to then show the “Antichrist AD2000†Then he moves into the “Seventh Day The 7th Thousand Years†and has his little circle there saying “End of Satan AD 3000.†How many years do you count between AD 2000 AND AD 3000??? Larkin INCORRECTLY has the Antichrist appearing BEFORE “The Millennium†and Satan appearing AFTER the same “Millennium.†If you look above on the same page (16 of Dispensational Truth) you see a big gap and Larkin saying “The Length of Time between the Rapture and ‘Revelation†is UNKNOWN.†Heh. That length of time is unknown TO LARKIN, and he has “The Tribulation†appearing in AD 2000. We are living in 2006 partner and Larkin’s charts are OFF. Christ returns only AFTER the 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8) Day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10) is complete and AFTER Elijah returns FIRST (Matthew 17:10) to restore ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:11). Larkin’s diagrams have this “Length of time UNKOWN†lingo to cover for his lack of vision. When you place the 1000 Years that Satan is in the pit (Rev. 20:2-7) BEFORE that Tribulation and make his release (Revelation 12:12) PART of that ‘short time’ (Tribulation), then Larkin and Terral are in complete agreement. He just needs to make the “Second Coming†in “3000 AD†instead of “2000 AD.â€Â

Terral Original >> which is refuted by the fact that the dragon and beast work together in Revelation 13 and go into the lake of fire following the same battle described in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

George >> As I've stated above, both charts and explanation show Satan being expelled from heaven midway through the trib period. However, Satan is bound for 1000 years, the AC is thrown into the lake of fire before the 1000 years.

No sir. Go back to Page 16 of ‘Dispensational Truth’ and look at the top “Larger Scale†diagram where he places the “Second Coming†and the arrow pointing down to “AD 2000†clear as day. Note that this “Second Coming†FOLLOWS “The Tribulation.†Then look down at the timeline and find where he places the 2000 AD on the timeline. He places the “AD 2000†on the “Antichrist.†Then he passes through the entire 7th Thousand Years and deals with Satan in “AD 3000.†Therefore, unless you want to try and prove that Larkin has invented another “Tribulation,†which he DOES NOT NAME in this diagram, then your assertion that he expels Satan mid way through the Tribulation is false. The notion that the Antichrist (Beast) appears apart from Satan (Dragon) is also false. What does John see in Revelation 13?

“And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.†Revelation 13:1-2.

The dragon (Satan) precedes his beast and is preparing the way like John the Baptist did for Christ in the Four Gospels. The dragon (Satan) is giving his power and throne and authority to his Son (Beast), just like the Father gave life and authority to judge to His Son (John 5:26-27). The ‘thousand years’ that Satan was in the pit just ended with his release in Revelation 12:12.

"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time (Revelation 20:7)." And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) who gave birth to the male child (Christ).†Revelation 12:12-13.

The dragon is not cast down in the middle of any Tribulation period, because he is the instigator paving the way for the Beast from the beginning. Elijah has already returned and restored the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7) during the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) that STARTED the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.†The restored Kingdom AND Temple is what the Beast comes to use in setting up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-13). This same Beast must come and make the covenant of peace to start the ‘one week’ (Daniel 9:27), but then he stops the offerings in the middle. That tells you that the Kingdom and Temple are already restored at his coming (Matthew 24:15). There is only one 1000 Years Day of the Lord and Satan with his Beast appear together at the ‘end’ of that 1000 Years and work within the same “short time,†just prior to Christ’s one “coming†at the “end of the age†(Matthew 24:3+).

Terral Original >. He never understood that both the antichrist and Satan work at the end of this current evil age just prior to Christ’s single coming (Matthew 24:30-31)

George >> He clearly states this and shows it in many of his charts......In many charts Satan (dragon) and the beast are shown in the tribulation period. Satan bound at the 2nd coming, beast takes a swim in the heated pool.

Satan is what??? Satan is bound for the same thousand years that Elijah is restoring all things. The battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) is the same battle fought to end both Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. There is just one Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) following that battle and the Beast, False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) and the dragon (Revelation 20:10) are in the lake of fire BEFORE that judgment takes place. God deals with both the Beast AND the Dragon AFTER the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord.â€Â

Terral Original >> and that they are both in the lake of fire before the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

George >> Of course they are in the lake of fire by 20:11-15, but however comma, there is a 1000 year period in between the event of Rev 20:1 and 20:11. They clearly are not thrown into the lake of fire at the same time.

No sir. Revelation 20 is an overview of the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†that started back with John standing in the “Lord’s Day†(Day of the Lord) in Revelation 1:10. Satan was bound by the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the sound of the trumpet “behind†John back in Revelation 1. The 1000 Years day of the Lord and the events of the “short time†that follow have been transpiring from Revelation 1 to Revelation 12:12 and Satan’s release. You have created your own second 1000 Years from John’s overview chapter (Revelation 20) given from Satan’s perspective of this same 1000 Years; and thus you are duplicating Larkin’s mistake . . .

Terral Original >> The reason many cannot distinguish between an ‘age’ and a ‘dispensation’ is because Larkin used those terms interchangeable without regard for the differences. GL in the discussion and thank you for writing,

George >> By definition Age and Dispensation are the same....Just looked them up in Websters to make sure.....

My God, George. Webster does not define the ancient Greek terms used in the New Testament. Try using Vines Expository Dictionary of NT Words or Strongs Lexicon. Webster indeed . . . That is funny . . . We will try to pretend you did not make that statement . . .

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral[/quote:2c7f8]